Jump to content

Bakker: The Great Ordeal SPOILER THREAD


Werthead

Recommended Posts

6 minutes ago, Baztek said:

Remember when the Nonmen king guy calls Yatwer "the Fertility principle"? Maybe Ajokli's the principle that can see beyond the gods, and it's somehow tied up with his nature as a god of hatred and murder. Idk.

Haaa, the other question i asked Bakker was, "What would the Nonmen's name for Onkis be?" What principle? He has ignored it thus far.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Haaa, the other question i asked Bakker was, "What would the Nonmen's name for Onkis be?" What principle? He has ignored it thus far.

I seriously think Onkis is the Other and head on the pole, so if anything, she's the Principle of the Darkness, or the Other

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Baztek said:

Remember when the Nonmen king guy calls Yatwer "the Fertility principle"? Maybe Ajokli's the principle that can see beyond the gods, and it's somehow tied up with his nature as a god of hatred and murder. Idk.

Ajokli is the trickster analogue, I think. If I were giving him a name it would be something like the 'duplicitous principle'. 

I don't think he can see beyond the gods; I think that he recognizes that he can't see everything, and thus chooses to accept the information from other sources instead of explaining it away. Alternately Ajokli is one of the only gods that survives beyond the Eschaton. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

33 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

I assume you believe he'll be damned when seen with the JE? I don't think so. We see Cnaüir and how damned he is for his murdering raping and such. Kellhus does the same shit, he murders fucking nations. So why won't he be damned? I think it goes back to what you said earlier, he is bringing about the end of an enchanted world. He is healing Earwa, in a sense. He has a purpose behind his sins that is in line with the God. 

Same question can be asked about Mimara. Mimara has done plenty of things worth damning for, yet she is holy and penitent in her view.

Which either implies that she isn't the role of the God, but one of the gods (in which case she's just an avatar like Psatma and Kelmomas is), or her role in the universe is more important than the actions she takes towards others. The former implies Kellhus would be super damned. The latter implies Kellhus could be damned or holy depending. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

B&N says they have shipped my book.

Sadly, looks like it won't be here by the end of today though... which is a shame.  I am accompanying my dad to a medical procedure tomorrow.  He's getting both an endoscopy and a colonoscopy, so the doctors will have him locked in like a set of Inchoroi fingercuffs.  This will take 4-5 hours.  Would have loved to have the book for an uninterrupted session like that.

Ah well.  

.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So...

 

Seems like Nonman oblivion and the darkness that comes before are essentially the same thing. And like the big philosophical theme the series revolves around is the origin of thoughts and beliefs and what have you in some unfathomable, pre-cognitive state, so I think the answer to the divine whodunnit will be something literally coming out of Oblivion/the Darkness that Comes Before (meant in this context in the grandest and most metaphysical sense) that, by being an Object to the God's Subject, will fracture Him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And considering how thinking, rationalization, memory, cognition in general, is the source of so much misery in the series (and the real world tbh) - not to mention literally that one line about how breathing becomes bright again when you don't think, like something out of a pop Buddhism book - and considering how these are all actions that presuppose and revolve around the subject-object dynamic - and thereby are the very substance of desire and deception - and how they all originate in the darkness that comes before, seems to me the ultimate origin of this still lines up perfectly with what I said in my above post. The God fractured when a voice without origin came out of nowhere and created the dualism of watcher - watched.

 

also it's curious that's how Kellhus describes the voice that speaks to him, without origin, and since he says it's the No-God to Moenghus, and since I think the No-God is the terminal point on the object side of the spectrum, and since what I think fractured the God is a primordial Other/Object... It's slowly coming together

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Triskan said:

Also, random but:  can Kellhus brainwash Meppa?

Brainwashing Meppa is unnecessary.  Once the No-God walks, Meppa would have to be a moron to be uncooperative.  Remember, every human can sense the No-God.

 

3 hours ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

So, anyone have any thoughts as to what/where Kellhus goes next? Seems like he has prepped Proyas for taking the Ordeal for an extended period of time. When all I can see left for him to do, is take/destroy Golgoterreth.......

Wait for the Ordeal to be fed to the No-God.  Let the No-God seal away the Heavens.  Destroy the Consult.  Everyone lives happily ever-after in a world without objective morality, damnation, and rape-aliens.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can't wait for Achamian, Proyas, Cnaiur and Kellhus to be in the same room together... Man, what a reunion. 

I can't imagine that demon-Malowebi will have the time to return to Zeum before all the major action is resolved in TUC.  By boat that's something that would take like a month to six weeks?  Unless as a demon he can transport himself in some ciphrang way. It may be expedited by Bakker, unless the epilogue of the damn book is Malowebi, which doesn't sound like a fitting conclusion.  idk  Zsoronga is still with the Ordeal presumably, it would be silly if he died during all the carnage at Dagliash, so he has some future role to play—hopefully as a future Satakhan?  The geo-political role of Zeum going forward is still a big question for me—probably won't be addressed until series three.  Not to mention the ancestor worship that can bypass the gods 'n shit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2016-07-05 at 11:05 AM, Hello World said:

I'm pretty sure those that don't want to be spoiled can not click on the spoiler Q&A threads... There are already spoiler threads out in the open, anyway. Like this one.

It had nothing to do getting people to sign up - only ARC readers had access to the ARC subforum, anyways.

The difference, also, is in the volume of threads here vs. SA. There's one here with totally open spoilers; real easy to avoid. Users on SA use the "unread" and "recent topics" lists, in which case it becomes more complicated. TGO subforum and Author Q&A are open for spoiler threads since it's clear a number of members have purchased their official copies and I'll be making the ARC discussion subforum and the ARC Author Q&A public on the 12th, though probably I'll just be moving topics from the latter to the regular Q&A tagged as "[TGO Spoilers]" :).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In chapter eight when Akka has the dream as Celmomas dying, Celmomas thinks he sees Gilgaol.  Is it really Ajokli though?  He says he's got four horns, and he's all fucked up from the blow to the head.  And is Kellhus sending these dreams?  Akka sees Kellhus there speaking to Celmomas at the time of his death, and Kellhus has the two demon heads with him.  Just not sure what to make of all this yet.  Loving the Ishterebinth chapters, but the Momemn ones have been kind of a drag.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Finished the book yesterday.

Cnaiur's return is a bit of a dilemma to me. Bakker said he had no remaining role in the story during an interview. This makes it hard for me to trust anything he says now. Maybe he should have pulled a RAFO instead. Is it possible that he changed his mind upon seeing Cnaiur's popularity? Yes, but this doesn't make me feel any better...

Bakker's prose seemed more abstract this time around for me. Sadly, I may be too stupid to understand the book. Hats off to the readers who thought that the idea of theology born from the finite perspective of man doing injury to an infinite God introduced by either Ajencis or Memgowa (memory's fuzzy here) was an important key.

Scattered thoughts:

Kellhus returning to the empire may be proof that the Sranc meat is impacting him. During his first tutelage of Proyas in the book, he recognized that he couldn't save the empire and that trying to do so would break his heart. This indicates an emotional connection to the empire; maybe the meat encouraged him to act out on this connection.

Turning to Dagliah, Aurang seemed awfully relaxed while observing Dagliash. For some reason, I initially thought the nuke was the sarcophagus and that Kellhus was about to become the No-God. The explosion thus unintentionally became an anticlimax for me. After a while, the Sranc killing started to become monotonous, not unlike the Trolloc battles in AMOL.

Bakker seems to have forgotten about Aurax. When mentioning the founders of the consult, he mentioned Shae, Aurang and Mekeritrig but ignored the other twin. I hope this isn't the case.

I feel like Fanayal, WLW and Psatma were colossal wastes of time. Why were they even included in the story if they only existed to fall before Kellhus? In the WLW's case, I can see him as an exploration of how the Gods regard time, but I have nothing for Psatma. If I want to be really cynical, Kellhus dispatching of Fanayal and Psatma felt like an effort to make him seem like an XTREEEEEEEME badass. If this cynical approach is true, then I fear the implications; the books may be none other than a celebration of a DnD character Bakker created in his youth. 

Sorweel, just because the Second Apocalypse is real doesn't necessitate that Kellhus is a savior. I'm awfully surprised Moenghus survived.

It would be hilarious if the thing called Serwe killed Cnaiur in self-defense, but I suspect makeup grimdark futa sex will patch things over.

Pressing questions for me:

1. Why was Kellhus upset (to the extent that he can be upset) with Esmi? Was it because of her role in Maithanet's death? Was it because of her mismanagement of the Empire? Esmi's internal thoughts that she "let it happen" don't do much to clarify things, as this can be attributed to both of the interpretations.

2. Was Sorweel instigating the Nonmen revolution part of Yatwer's plan, or just something he was able to do because of her protection?

3. Is Serwa's notion that material reality is unreal a product of her perception of the Onta? According to this viewpoint, since she grasps the Onta, she realizes that material reality can be changed according to her will thanks to sorcery. Or is there something more here? Could Serwa be able to change material reality through her desire alone? Is this confirmation of a Platonic world?

4. How did Kelmomas mess up the White-Luck? My interpretation is that Ajokli ruined Yatwer's narrative via Kelmomas for the sake of trolling or anger over the WLW's killing of the original Narindar. A second theory that I don't like as much is that Yatwer is blind to Kelmomas because of the fact that he has two souls as opposed to one.

4. I have two interpretations of man's relationship with the Absolute. Commentary would be helpful:

       A. Mankind can only approach the Absolute by being its antithesis. This means by being limited. The more limited man is, the better he fulfills the role as the antithesis. In this interpretation, man's limited identity itself is the connection to the Absolute.

     B. When man attempts to approach the Absolute, his efforts should lead to feelings of limitation because of the approach's impossibility. Thus, actions pursuing the Absolute that lead to limitation connect man to the Absolute rather than limited identities in of themselves.

These comments sound much more critical than I feel. This is probably my second favorite book that I've read in 2016, with Children of Earth and Sky beating it out due to Great Ordeal's truncated ending.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm getting Hegelian vibes about Bankers concept of the Absolute and how man can approach him. Seems like the path isn't to melt back into the light, but to embody or arrive towards the Absolute without sacrificing one's individuality. So less a rejection of the physical and more a shining through it.

 

The whole "man can only approach god through ignorance or hatred" is either Bakker or Kellhus being an edgelord can't tell.

 

And ayy marrone are the Momemn sections by far the most draggy. I'm glad it's ogre

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, larrytheimp said:

In chapter eight when Akka has the dream as Celmomas dying, Celmomas thinks he sees Gilgaol.  Is it really Ajokli though?  He says he's got four horns, and he's all fucked up from the blow to the head.  And is Kellhus sending these dreams?  Akka sees Kellhus there speaking to Celmomas at the time of his death, and Kellhus has the two demon heads with him.  Just not sure what to make of all this yet.  Loving the Ishterebinth chapters, but the Momemn ones have been kind of a drag.

You know, more and more I'm thinking you guys might be right and that was Ajokli and not Gilgoal. What I took from the dream was the God showing Kellhus not as the harbinger, but as the END. The end of the Gods existence, not man's. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh, and my new little pet theory is that Anagke is guiding Akka's dreams. As a God it can see all of time and be able to show Akka perspectives from anyone. I mean, we know the Gods are involved heavily, it wouldn't surprise me one iota of that's the case. Akke remarks upon the Whore every other paragraph, so I'm assuming that's a hint hint by Bakker.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote

Turning to Dagliah, Aurang seemed awfully relaxed while observing Dagliash. For some reason, I initially thought the nuke was the sarcophagus and that Kellhus was about to become the No-God. The explosion thus unintentionally became an anticlimax for me. After a while, the Sranc killing started to become monotonous, not unlike the Trolloc battles in AMOL.

I totally thought that this whole thing was being engineered for Kellhus to get to Dagliash and find the remains of the No-God for some reason, and this was going to be the big heel turn. I was really excited about it too for that same reason, and when it turned out to be a nuke I had to reread it because it seemed so odd. And yeah, I mentioned in my review that I was getting bored - the battles were a part of the boredom for me. I was actually kind of surprised how many people loved the Dagliash parts. They were my least favorite part of the book, alternating between me getting bored at battle sequences or laughing at guys taking off their armor with hard ons as they were about to eat sranc, to being taken out of the book entirely when Kellhus revealed he knows everything about nuclear explosions and their aftereffects. 

Quote

I feel like Fanayal, WLW and Psatma were colossal wastes of time. Why were they even included in the story if they only existed to fall before Kellhus? In the WLW's case, I can see him as an exploration of how the Gods regard time, but I have nothing for Psatma. If I want to be really cynical, Kellhus dispatching of Fanayal and Psatma felt like an effort to make him seem like an XTREEEEEEEME badass. If this cynical approach is true, then I fear the implications; the books may be none other than a celebration of a DnD character Bakker created in his youth. 

Yeah, I had a similar problem. Especially with the resolution being 1) an earthquake hits and 2) Kellhus kills everything. It felt very much unearned, especially from the point of view of Esmi. And it's even worse if she's dead.

Quote

 

       A. Mankind can only approach the Absolute by being its antithesis. This means by being limited. The more limited man is, the better he fulfills the role as the antithesis. In this interpretation, man's limited identity itself is the connection to the Absolute.

     B. When man attempts to approach the Absolute, his efforts should lead to feelings of limitation because of the approach's impossibility. Thus, actions pursuing the Absolute that lead to limitation connect man to the Absolute rather than limited identities in of themselves.

 

I think that this is more of an unasking the question. 

The person that we have most directly seen grasp the Absolute concept as far as we can tell is Koringhus - even moreso than Kellhus. He has a working theory of how it all works - the zero-God hypothesis - and between his feeling of the leaves on his son's palm and being forgiven by Mimara, he appears to understand more than anyone. For him, becoming closer to the Absolute means being closer to the place that God resides, which is everyone and everywhere at once. The more he empathizes with others, the more he feels who they are and understands who they are and where they are - which is to say, understands himself as well - the more he becomes with them and unites with them. 

The Absolute isn't an entity. It is a place. It is the origin of everything, and it is everything. You approach it by allowing yourself to become one with everything else. The limited identities of others and other things are therefore crucial to understanding, because you must realize that they are not limited - they are simply a dimension of the zero-God, a dimensional projection of a multidimensional object into a 3-dimensional surface. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...