Kalbear Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 2 hours ago, Baztek said: The whole "man can only approach god through ignorance or hatred" is either Bakker or Kellhus being an edgelord can't tell. Again, the person that we've personally seen get closest to what the God is (I think; if he isn't, then his chapters are entirely pointless) is Koringhus, who approaches God not through ignorance or hatred but through empathy and accepting his unity with everything, seeks forgiveness from Mimara and then kills himself when being closest to that understanding. So yeah, Kellhus thinking that he has to be the least close to anyone makes me think that he is not remotely close at all. Depends a lot on whether Koringhus is right or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baztek Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 Finally finished Dagliash. Man, that shit was great, even if the "scabrous enormity" and "gibbering mass" of the Horde is getting a bit old. Saubon getting dragged into hell was nuts, and Aurang just popping in to say hi was really cool too. Bakker's got a great knack for building up villains you barely see into these absolute dread horrors, miles better than any Voldemort build-up. Nearly said "oh fuck" out loud when I realized he'd arrived. I really hope the Consults been cooking up some new weapon races for TUC, I'm almost officially sick of sranc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 Really enjoying the Ishterebinth story line. Oiranal and Sorwheel descending to the bowels of the Weeping Mountain, learning that the Nonmen who grow freakin'huge is more than just legend, the Lord of the Watch ripping off the cauldron and then Sorwheel telling Serwa 'sing'.... loved it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baztek Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 So when the survivor blinks and sees probability scenarios as "each a living claim, yearning to be raised up from the multitudes - and to exult in the flesh of the real" and then a couple paragraphs later he's talking about how he's discovered that there are entities in the darkness that comes before, it confirms the hundred essentially being a kind of idealistic causality and humans are aggregates of those causes themselves. I mean he literally describes the brain and it's mechanistic function as Cause itself. So whenever something someone is objectively "yatwer-like" it's literally yatwer herself being objectified in from the outside, the fertility principle. I wonder how that changes after a disenchantment. Probably just void no entities. Just the indifference of our universe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 7 minutes ago, Baztek said: So when the survivor blinks and sees probability scenarios as "each a living claim, yearning to be raised up from the multitudes - and to exult in the flesh of the real" and then a couple paragraphs later he's talking about how he's discovered that there are entities in the darkness that comes before, it confirms the hundred essentially being a kind of idealistic causality and humans and aggregates of cause themselves. So whenever something someone is objectively "yatwer-like" it's literally yatwer herself being objectified in from the outside, the fertility principle. I wonder how that changes after a disenchantment. Probably just void no entities. Just the indifference of our universe Yeah, don't buy this at all. Sorry. The notion that this confirms anything, much less some idea of idealistic causality, or that the aspects are literally being Yatwer or others when you're doing that thing - don't buy that at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baztek Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 41 minutes ago, Dickwad Poster #3784 said: Yeah, don't buy this at all. Sorry. The notion that this confirms anything, much less some idea of idealistic causality, or that the aspects are literally being Yatwer or others when you're doing that thing - don't buy that at all. What? This whole series is about Men Ever Being Deceived, and the hook is that they're being casually deceived by demons that eat your soul. And the only way out is do like the inchies or apprehend the zero-god/oblivion/all those lines about night and darkness being the ground of everything. The gods are ideas in the "void" that manifest in the world. Cutting them off makes the universe a boring old empirical universe. It's all right there in the text. The inchoroi and dunyain aim for zero and infinity respectively - infra-consciousness and superconsciousness - but only in the immanent domain. Transcending the causal manifold is what korringhus is doing when he's talking about the place that has no differences. Zero as the absence of quantity that presupposes quantity in the first place, the blood that pulses from everywhere equally, which is the medium of consciousness - the Tao, the Upanishadic Self that is controlled by a meat computer - which the dunyain see as objectified Cause - but also can apprehend that it is controlled by a meat computer and marvel that it exists in the first place - probably has to do with the onta as well and that quote about to see what it seeing what it means to be a man is no longer to a man. It's paradoxical. Remember korringhus first gets a glimpse of the absolute by looking at mimara and understanding her look as coming from everywhere and nowhere. Consciousness as a self-reflexivity and what it is blind to as per being a self-reflexivity is what Banker loves to talk about. It's all there you got to put it together yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 9 minutes ago, Baztek said: What? This whole series is about Men Ever Being Deceived, and the hook is that they're being casually deceived by demons that eat your soul. And the only way out is do like the inchies or apprehend the zero-god/oblivion/all those lines about night and darkness being the ground of everything. The gods are ideas in the "void" that manifest in the world. Cutting them off makes the universe a boring old empirical universe. It's all right there in the text. The inchoroi and dunyain aim for zero and infinity respectively - infra-consciousness and superconsciousness - but only in the immanent domain. Transcending the causal manifold is what korringhus is doing when he's talking about the place that has no differences. The idea that the gods are 'ideas' is what I object to. Or that when you have anything to do with said ideas that this is because the god is reaching through you. I just don't find the evidence of this compelling at all. 9 minutes ago, Baztek said: Zero as the absence of quantity that presupposes quantity in the first place, the blood that pulses from everywhere equally, which is consciousness - the Tao, the Upanishadic Self that is controlled by a meat computer - which the dunyain see as objectified Cause - but also can apprehend that it is controlled by a meat computer and marvel that it exists in the first place - probably has to do with the onta as well and that quote about to see what it seeing what it means to be a man is no longer to a man. It's paradoxical. Remember korringhus first gets a glimpse of the absolute by looking at mimara and understanding her look as coming from everywhere and nowhere. Consciousness as a self-reflexivity and what it is blind to as per being a self-reflexivity is what Banker loves to talk about. It's all there you got to put it together yourself. And this is as far as I can tell random word salad. I don't comprehend this at all. I may lack the context. Slow down a bit and state your hypothesis a smidgen more clearly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baztek Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 It's pretty clear man. Zero-God = the One, the Absolute, the ineffable background medium of reality which presupposes all manifestation, the Tao, non-self, the Self etc. and the medium of consciousness itself. Human consciousness is simultaneously an aggregate of causes (he literally says our impulses are but a mobs of blind men yadda yadda) and the perceiver of causes. One is not one's thoughts but the space in which those thoughts occur. The causes of our thoughts themselves precede us in biological and psychological obscurity, and in the Bakkerverse theres the added bonus that they're hijacked by extra dimensional gods, so one either lets themselves become Ever Deceived all the way down to sranc 0, or they try to control and understand those causes in the world like the dunyain. What happens when korringhus looks at mimara is that he transcends these causes instead of tries to conquer them in the immanent domain. it's the fact of this causal aggregate recognizing itself AS a causal aggregate, as something that is pushed and compelled, and taking a step back. What is common in all experiences is the truth of their being experiences. This is a consciousness of consciousness, consciousness with itself as its own object as opposed to all the other objects which will Ever Deceive you. Everywhere and nowhere, it's the principle staring out of mimara eyes and the only salvation in the bakkerverse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 12 minutes ago, Baztek said: Human consciousness is simultaneously an aggregate of causes (he literally says our impulses are but a mobs of blind men yadda yadda) He literally says 'yadda yadda'? Also, when does he say this? Before or after his thought about the zero-god? That's kind of an important point here. The idea of consciousness being an aggregate of causes is what Bakker believes about real people in this world and what the unawakened Dunyain believed. Until they run into Mimara, who shows them that they're totally wrong. The soul in Bakkerverse is what Bakker desperately wants to have - a thing that exists outside of the meat. The Dunyain as a culture don't believe in that. Koringhus gets new data and decides that it can't possibly be true. 12 minutes ago, Baztek said: and the perceiver of causes. One is not one's thoughts but the space in which those thoughts occur. The causes of our thoughts themselves precede us in biological and psychological obscurity, and in the Bakkerverse theres the added bonus that they're hijacked by extra dimensional gods, so one either lets themselves become Ever Deceived all the way down to sranc 0, or they try to control and understand those causes in the world like the dunyain. This feels like a mismash of a lot of things. The Dunyain think meat is all, but Koringhus realizes that this is incorrect. The 'hijacking' part is the part that I don't feel is supported by the text whatsoever. In fact, there's another part where they talk about how they found the part of the brain that actually has the soul (something like an odd shell) which Sranc and other things don't have - all they are is meat. 12 minutes ago, Baztek said: What happens when korringhus looks at mimara is that he transcends these causes instead of tries to conquer them in the immanent domain. it's the fact of this causal aggregate recognizing itself AS a causal aggregate, as something that is pushed and compelled, and taking a step back. What is common in all experiences is the truth of their being experiences. Again, the idea that this is a causal aggregate is the part I object to and the part that I think has zero evidence towards. If you have quotes, provide them. Saying 'yadda yadda' is not particularly helpful. It also doesn't explain how he can feel the leaf on the hand of his son. 12 minutes ago, Baztek said: This is a consciousness of consciousness, consciousness with itself as its own object as opposed to all the other objects which will Ever Deceive you. Everywhere and nowhere, it's the principle staring out of mimara eyes and the only salvation in the bakkerverse The problem with the 'ever are men deceived' thing is that we know this is Dunyain bullshit. Per Koringhus, all of this has already happened. His whole worldview of what comes before determining what comes after is completely and totally upended by Mimara's sight and knowing what he has done before, and the only possibility that he reaches is that it is because everything has already happened and she can revisit any point on any part of the causal chain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baztek Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 Also Korringhus says he fears the true shortest path to the Absolute is the path to death, which is why the God was "as death" before he became dualized. So the whole series revolves around this pristine unity being shattered, and pluralized into evil gods. It's very Gnostic and neoplatonic. To apprehend the Absolute in a transcendent mode, instead of immanenently which is what damned the Dunyain, is to enter a nondual state that resolves the contradictions of Being which we can tie back to the whole so long as there are men there are crimes thing. which means so long as their are agents, there will be duality and incompatibility between agents. The Tao vs. yin and Yang. Resolving the contradictions in himself is exactly what motivates Korringhus to let mimara judge him, and to be seen in the eyes of eternity has some very kierkegaardian echoes. The soul is perceiver of experience in its most fundamental sense, and it explicitly says it is what all souls could be if they recognized it. And yes he does talk about the blind men after realizing the no-god and he literally says the truth is that you are many. What Dunyain do is "hijack" the ruleset of your aggregates, in other words exploit difference and measure itself instead going beyond it, into making you do things without feeling manipulated at all. He really says the error of the Dunyain is believing the absolute was something to be exploited instead of realizing that which conditions what is exploitable in the first place. I'm typing this up on my phone but trust me its all there. Re-read the whole zero-god part again. Its straight out of tantric metaphysics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 Quote he literally says the truth is that you are many. Huh. I interpreted that as pointing out that he is everyone, not that he is an aggregate of the hundred gods. Doesn't this happen like right by the point where he feels the leaf tickling his son's hand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baztek Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 55 minutes ago, Dickwad Poster #3784 said: Yeah he says it right after the blind mob part. He's feeling what the kid feels because he's having a very intuitive realization of the Absolute as unified in its multiplicity. Zero as the absence of quantity itself vs. any quantity. Kellhus is an omniscient p-zombie and has become the face of the absolute object, "pattern-making absolute's" telos in order to repel the outside and heal itself. Mimara, though, is greater. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokisnow Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 Baz has the philosophical backing but what he says groks with what I took out of the zero God stuff in my much dumber layman no specialized vocabulary understanding of it, but I don't see the distinction between you two very clearly so... Mainly I dont think I read the koringhus stuff very accurately because I couldn't quiet my inner crowing that koringhus continually marveled at the stupidity and limitations of the dunyain. That shit was cathartic to me, and the main thing I remember. So refreshing compared to kellhus obsession with dominance and belief in his own infallibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 Where I'm agreeing with @Baztek (and he can feel free to correct me, as I barely understand him - something that is entirely my fault and ignorance): Every soul is connected to each other, all are projections or manifestations of the same zero-God, and everyone starts in the same place. We all contain the multitudes of everyone. Where I disagree with him: Baztek's idea is (I believe) that the 100 are also part of this souled network, and specifically whenever we have an idea pertaining to one of the hundred gods' aspect, it is because it is coming from that aspect. They are sort of the platonic ideal of murder, or of fertility, etc. I don't think this is the case, and instead I think the hundred are essentially alien creatures separate from and feeding on the souls as parasites. They are functionally no different than Ciphrang save that they have more power and control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokisnow Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 Quote In his absolution. “You are forgiven, Esmenet.” Who are you to forgive? “Mimara.” Jesus Christ that passage is some hella foreshadowing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 1 minute ago, lokisnow said: Jesus Christ that passage is some hella foreshadowing. Where is that from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokisnow Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 Warrior prophet, I'm looking for the bits where esmenet and serwe do the same thing that koringhus does, although kellhus is ignorant of it because he and the reader both think he is just puppeteer in them. But he isn't, he's just ignorant and deceived and caught within the dunyain frame and unable to see its strictures. this, for example, is right after esmenet sees a halo for the first time. Quote She stood here, and those things there. No longer. Everything, it seemed, radiated the warmth of his skin. The ground beneath her bare feet. The mat beneath her buttocks. And for a mad instant, she was certain that if she raised her fingers to her cheek, she would feel the soft curls of a flaxen beard, that if she turned to her left, she would see Esmenet hovering motionless over her rice bowl. Somehow, everything had become here, and everything here had become him. Kellhus! She breathed in. Her heart battered her breast. He scraped the passage clean! At another point she has the same ou of body experience as koringhus, including feeling the equivalent of a leaf against another's skin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 Ah, got it. And yeah, there are a whole lot of similar sounding bits on the Circumfix too, where Kellhus actually has his part that is closest to revelation and being united with anything. Which as far as I can tell he spends the next 20 years actively repressing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 Ok either I missed it among all the purple prose or it went over my head, but what's making the clacking sound? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 8 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said: Ok either I missed it among all the purple prose or it went over my head, but what's making the clacking sound? Think of the sound a ratchet makes....and that what is lowering the boatman and his boat. Clack. Clack. Clack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.