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Bakker: The Great Ordeal SPOILER THREAD


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Just now, Darth Richard II said:

Ahhh gotcha. Seriously, that whole part of the book was just crazy balls. I haven't read anything that felt so dream like since The Wizard Knight. 

In the boat sequence I had flashbacks to Willy Wonka

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Still have some pages left but I admittedly skipped around a bit. 

My only major OH BAKKER NO moment was finding out Theli was an abuse victim right before she dies. It just seemed so superfluous, but since this is only half the book for all we know it matters...though I suspect at this point she's another wasted character.

Why Kellhus knows the effects of radiation poisoning - my guess is that he can see the tracks of the future. The "Probability Trance", at least post Circumfix is actually his consciousness poking ahead a bit into the different possible timelines (think Block Multiverse a la P2P Hypothesis).

Similarly this is how he knew the nuke would be there...though personally I don't think this was an actual Inchie weapon so much as a re-jiggered engine or power cell. I also don't think Aurang swung by to activate the make-shift bomb, rather I think he either came in hopes of distracting Kellhus or just getting a sense of the Schoolmen numbers. 

On the metaphysics...I feel like that's a focus for a second read. I actually do wish I could contribute but have no hope of doing so at the moment. Going to have to really think about the WLW part, that was insanely disappointing.

In fact the death of Psatma was also rather lame, why not just kill her outright? Did Kellhus intend to throw her into damnation by making her doubt Yatwer at the end? Initially I thought he'd caught her soul somehow, attempting to deny at least the intellectual part of her the taste of Heaven (assuming such a thing exists). Then she goes "SPLAT" and I felt like rolling my eyes.

The Decapitant part, however, was interesting. Especially since Kellhus has one head left. Does the new fusion have a demon's face, or Malowebi's?

 

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9 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

@Sci-2, you did notice that we get a POV from Malowebi post decapitated, right? And that Ptsama says his destiny is to witness. I wonder if he becomes Kellhus's standard or if he is literally a head on a pole? 

Do you mean when Kellhus tells him to murder Zeum's royalty or even after that?

Ah, I like the idea of Malowebi being a head on a pole. It makes him the aspect of the Mind that observes action while the demon is the actor.

One might also think Malowebi should be relieved, since he's now spared damnation? Or would his ancestors have snuck him into the Mansions of Heaven?

 

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23 minutes ago, Sci-2 said:

Do you mean when Kellhus tells him to murder Zeum's royalty or even after that?

Ah, I like the idea of Malowebi being a head on a pole. It makes him the aspect of the Mind that observes action while the demon is the actor.

One mighft also think Malowebi should be relieved, since he's now spared damnation? Or would his ancestors have snuck him into the Mansions of Heaven?

 

It's been a month since I read it, but I recall when Kellhus places the decapitant on Malo's body, we see that through his POV. 

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Just now, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

It's been a month since I read it, but I recall when Kellhus places the decapitant on Malo's body, we see that through his POV. 

Ah yeah just looked at it again, seems like the new demon-Malo combo has an obviously demonic head.

Is this thing going to get very far into Zeum before being killed? Can it use Malo's soul to cast spells?

Did Kellhus teleport all the way back after the nuke to take advantage of the aftershock....just so he could make Malo his assassin against Zeum?

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On 7/7/2016 at 6:34 PM, Cithrin's Ale said:

Cnaiur's return is a bit of a dilemma to me. Bakker said he had no remaining role in the story during an interview. This makes it hard for me to trust anything he says now. Maybe he should have pulled a RAFO instead. Is it possible that he changed his mind upon seeing Cnaiur's popularity? Yes, but this doesn't make me feel any better...

Did he actually say that? I tried to find that interview but all that came up are links to people saying that Bakker said that here and on the other forum. He did make one comment about it on 3Cs though, http://forum.three-seas.com/topics/1004

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I was afraid of this question, simply because I knew that anyone who asked would likely hate my answer. All I can say is that I thought long and hard about that ending, and had dozens of discussions about it with those who read the first draft. As it stands, I think it's perfect, it's the way Cnaiur's arc simply has to end. Beyond that...

It seems vague enough that I would give him a pass on it...

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Coulda sworn I read a line somewhere near the end that confirmed the block universe theory. 

 

Also I think with the zero-god stuff massively clarifying the series' metaphysics, it's pretty safe to say at this point the dunyain are an attack on the prevailing atheist physicalism of our day, and the EAMD stuff is an attack on the naive, anthropocentric theism it is a reaction to.

 

So from this thesis-antithesis, we achieve a synthesis and arrive not at a personal god or stale materialism, but the philosopher's God, the Absolute, the third option. Bakker knows his stuff. What I figured was a kind of edgy railing against the sheeple was just a set-up for something much greater and a view very much shared by other thinkers.

 

If we're going with the Neoplatonic system:

The One = zero-god

The Intellect = Kellhus' God

The Soul = the ciphrang of the psychic universe

Matter = Earwa

Nice and clean.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Hello World said:

Did he actually say that? I tried to find that interview but all that came up are links to people saying that Bakker said that here and on the other forum. He did make one comment about it on 3Cs though, http://forum.three-seas.com/topics/1004

It seems vague enough that I would give him a pass on it...

"I know, I base my own conclusions on an interview by Bakker - can't remember which one but a number are in the Interviews & Articles thread - in which he says that Cnaiur's arc was finished with the PON."-Madness, 2013, http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=400.0
Maybe I just imagined the interview's existence based on this comment. I wonder if Madness knew he was alive in 2013...
Kal, I saw Koringhus' conclusions as a complement to Kellhus'  theological statements to Proyas. It never occurred to me to see them as opposed. Thanks for the viewpoint.
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On 06/07/2016 at 8:47 PM, Claustrophobic Jurble said:

However, so Kellhus seeks to ally himself to the No-God against the God, but also he still wants to destroy the Consult for the sake of humanity.  He wants to save everyone - from the Consult and damnation. 

That favors the nuke being built by Kellhus - the Outside covers the entire Universe, which is why the Inchoroi have come to Earwaworld. Perhaps Kellhus interrogated the souls of scientists from atomic age civilizations.

Yes, I think it is clear that Kellhus is planning to both stop the Consult and end the threat of damnation for humanity. He knows that he's likely damned as well, so to avoid an eternity of torment in the afterlife is in his best interests and destroying the Hundred or sealing the world from the Outside but not in the Inchoroi manner is likely his goal.

I keep thinking of Kellhus's probability trance in TTT, when he foresees his father taking the No-God's side, fighting a "feigned war" against Golgotterath designed to end in failure. Clearly that's not Kellhus's goal as he killed Moenghus to avoid that fate, but he might be working on some variation of that plan with a better (for him) outcome.

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That said, their 'best tactical decision to date' is not a high bar to overcome. So far we have them accidentally making their enemies immortal while killing their women, we have the No-God going out in the field to fight instead of sitting around and waiting for 20 years until all humans were dead, and we have them spending massive amounts of sranc and Quya mages attempting to kill Dunyain who were sitting around doing fuck all and happily putting their heads in the sand (and hey, how about a nuke there?). Or they even bothered to reveal themselves to the three seas instead of just pulling out their spies and again, waiting for a while until they could create the No-God again. So far the Consult remain a villain that is mostly scary because they're horrifying rape demons; they still seem to be fairly stupid.

Yeah, it's all a bit weird. My suspicion is that the No-God might have needed to take the field to actively kill/absorb fresh souls: if it sat around doing nothing it might whither and die. If the No-God is an engine of nihilism that prevents new souls from being born, than that engine may need fuel.

Also, at the end of the Apocalypse the Consult armies had been pretty devastated. The Sranc weren't as inexhaustible as they are now and their numbers had been sapped to the point where maybe the Kyraneans could have beaten them (especially if they fell back further and managed to raise larger armies from Nilnamesh, Amoteu, Cingulat, the island kingdoms and Zeum, which were all still untouched by the war). The No-God taking the field was essential. The failure to simply sit back for another 20 years and let the Sranc numbers build up against suggests some kind of time constraint or requirement for the No-God to keep active.

Also, the Ancient North is dead. There's no-one up there. If it takes a certain number of souls (144,000?) to power up the No-God, where are they going to get them from? Atrithau and Sakarpus don't appear to be that big and the unarcane ground of Atrithau seems to be a big problem for the Consult (given their failure to eliminate it at the height of the Apocalypse). So that requires either the Consult to invade the Three Seas - risky without the No-God with potentially a million plus human troops and many hundreds of sorcrerers down there - or for them to bring a human army to their doorstep.

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Recall that in a Seswatha and Cemomas flashback in a previous book they speculate about the No-God even though they don't name it as such as if they've heard something of what the Consult is attempting.

They actually do name it as the No-God, I believe. They had a strong inkling of what was coming, that was why Seswatha later tricked Nau-Cayuti into raiding the Ark to retrieve the Heron Spear, as he knew it'd be needed and once the No-God arose it'd be impossible to achieve it then.

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My suspicion is that we won't find out until the third series, if at all.

I'm wondering if TAE will resolve the plot of the series and end it as a series of books you can read as a standard (if ultradark) epic fantasy and the third series will be more of a philosophoical info-dump on the nature of the series, more like God-Emperor of Dune. That might be why Bakker seems sceptical of it will be published at all, or if he'll have to self-publish it.

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Did Kellhus teleport all the way back after the nuke to take advantage of the aftershock....just so he could make Malo his assassin against Zeum?

Looking at the chapter dates, it looks like Momemn was running later than the Great Ordeal/Ishterebinth stuff. I'm guessing that was to give Kellhus enough time to get back to the Empire. I don't think he teleported directly from Dagliash to Momemn, that would be rather overpowered.

Bakker did once say that Zeum would play a pretty big role in the series. They've been sitting over there not doing very much, so I'm wondering if they're going to invade the Empire (via Nilnamesh or the Scylvendi lands) in force or maybe sail a huge fleet round to the Neleost and get involved on someone's side (or their own).

 

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God, there's so much to these books, so many thinkers and systems Bakker is in conversation with compared to what I initially believed, which was we're just dealing with an idiosyncratic metaphysics for an idiosyncratic fantasy world. Think I'm gonna start a blog just to put it all in one place.

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So the walls of Momemn falling wasn't aftershock?

Could it have been Kellhus who collapsed the walls? I'm thinking of how in Shimeh the collapse of the walls was a trick, though I can't recall exactly how that stratagem was meant to go.

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3 hours ago, Baztek said:

If we're going with the Neoplatonic system:

The One = zero-god

The Intellect = Kellhus' God

The Soul = the ciphrang of the psychic universe

Matter = Earwa

Nice and clean.

Ah interesting though I need to double check my Neoplatonism/Hermeticism but I think you've got a handle on where Bakker is coming from.

You might also appreciate this:

The Self-Observing Universe: Wheeler & Absolute Idealism 2.0

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5 minutes ago, Sci-2 said:

Ah interesting though I need to double check my Neoplatonism/Hermeticism but I think you've got a handle on where Bakker is coming from.

You might also appreciate this:

The Self-Observing Universe: Wheeler & Absolute Idealism 2.0

Will definitely read. Sounds like Christopher Langan's CTMU theory of everything, where like Bakker, he rejects scientism and posits the universe as a self-reflexive, self-perceiving, self-configuring system existing in an ineffable background medium of zero energy and infinite potential he calls the Unbound Telesis but Bakker calls the Darkness that comes before. Minds are just sub-systems within the master system, the Mind of which is equivalent to God/the Logos in the Bakkerverse (what Korringhus calls the God of Nature. It's very Spinoza)

 

 So when humans think reality isn't a very ideal place to live, it's reality reacting to to itself in recursive contact. The human striving for a better world is literally existence self-improving, self-actualizating.

 

Anyways, as for the Darkness: to speak of existence is to speak of a determinations of energy of matter, essentially, to speak of shit being a certain way and what predicates those differences, ie Cause, Law. If you remove these constraints bit by bit to get at what's "beyond" existence, you arrive at nothingness, but paradoxically a nothingness that is also absolute fullness, because it's obviously the source of being in the first place. Existence is this unconditioned state "self-forgetting" its infinite nature and descending into multiplicity, relativity, individuation. Stillness of zero-god becomes Doing. Korringhus even says ignorance is the first principle, ignorance of the Darkness. which is a very Hindu and Buddhist thing to say.

 

Sorry for the philosophy dump guys. Btw sci you got any more dank ass philosophy blogs like this?

 

 

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