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Bakker: The Great Ordeal SPOILER THREAD


Werthead

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5 minutes ago, Claustrophobic Jurble said:

Here's the exact quote

"That this place behind our face though separated by nations and ages, is the same place, the same here.  That each of us witnesses the world through innumerable eyes.  That we are the God we would worship."

Following this, Achamian sees the world through the eyes of others.   Since it dovetails with Koringhus' Zero-God, and if it's just bullshit Kellhus is spewing, it's accidentally correct bullshit - similar to his prophecy to Saubon.  It makes me wonder if it's evidence for Kellhus' prophethood - something even he has discounted as madness in the intervening decades.

Ah. That sounds pretty much precisely like Koringhus' thoughts (and the Esmi point brought up earlier, and some of Serwe's thoughts). In that case there is no real difference. Which kind of makes sense, though it's unclear what thought process got Kellhus to that point when he didn't have the Judging Eye to make him believe in the lack of causal connections. 

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1 hour ago, Dickwad Poster #3784 said:

Ah. That sounds pretty much precisely like Koringhus' thoughts (and the Esmi point brought up earlier, and some of Serwe's thoughts). In that case there is no real difference. Which kind of makes sense, though it's unclear what thought process got Kellhus to that point when he didn't have the Judging Eye to make him believe in the lack of causal connections. 

Why didn't Koringhus just assume that Mimara's ability to see his past stemmed from her reading his mind/soul/whatever?

You think he'd at least ask Akka about what sorcerer can & cannot do?

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6 minutes ago, Sci-2 said:

Why didn't Koringhus just assume that Mimara's ability to see his past stemmed from her reading his mind/soul/whatever?

You think he'd at least ask Akka about what sorcerer can & cannot do?

I suspect he would either have determined that Akka would be able to do it and would have done it - but the important thing is that Mimara doesn't bear the mark, and doesn't have the scar. He's seen lots of Quya mages and Akka; Mimara is something else. And I suspect the real key is that he absolutely believes Mimara, and knows she isn't lying to him about anything. She is still entirely human and thus entirely plain to the Dunyain. 

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2 minutes ago, Dickwad Poster #3784 said:

I suspect he would either have determined that Akka would be able to do it and would have done it - but the important thing is that Mimara doesn't bear the mark, and doesn't have the scar. He's seen lots of Quya mages and Akka; Mimara is something else. And I suspect the real key is that he absolutely believes Mimara, and knows she isn't lying to him about anything. She is still entirely human and thus entirely plain to the Dunyain. 

Isn't Korr just pulling a Big Moe here [and making incorrect leaps of logic]?

If Korr had known about the Psukhe, would he then not run off a cliff?

I just wonder if Bakker's point is more about the folly of philosophical theism than it is a commentary of the actual metaphysics of the Bakkerverse?

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I've been thinking on Koringhus and Kellhus, and I've came to the same conclusion. Kellhus already knows about the Zero-God. I think Kellhus has been moved more and more by emotions, emotions are what "broke" him on the Circumfix. We as readers tend to say that Kellhus has done nothing but repress this emotions, because c'mon, look at his actions. But, I don't think that's the case. 

He cannot let those emotions rule him entirely, because of what he aims to do. Destroy the Consult, and shut out the Outside. And to accomplish these things, he has no choice but to be a ruthless, manipulative, murdering S.O.B.. I think the final scene in TUC will be Akka kneeling to a dying Kellhus, and him revealing that he has known all along how to obtain The Absolute, by that wasn't the goal. The goal, was to save humanity. 

There is evidence throughout TAE, and more in TGO that Kellhus is a man who is in touch with his emotions. He does love and care for others. But, for what he has to accomplish, he must be whatever is needed, whenever it's needed - as Thelli said.

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You know, what if the No-God isn't asking someone to describe it to itself when it asks "WHAT DO YOU SEE?" We're just making that assumption because it follows it up with "WHAT AM I?".  So what if - dun dun dun - the No God's kernel is Achamian and he's actually asking Mimara what she see when she looks at Kellhus.  Thence the weird dreams, all the souls sucked into the No-God's vacuum, Achamian has their memories, and also how he glimpsed Library of Sauglish from the eyes of Skafra - Skafra's eyes were his eyes as the No-God.  Celmomas' and Nau-Cayuti's souls were both devoured by the No-God.

 

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38 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

There is evidence throughout TAE, and more in TGO that Kellhus is a man who is in touch with his emotions. He does love and care for others. But, for what he has to accomplish, he must be whatever is needed, whenever it's needed - as Thelli said.

I thought Thelli said Kellhus doesn't exist as a person, he's simply a mechanism of necessity enacted by Something Else?

I do think the idea he's whatever's needed whenever it is needed, as a mirror to the WLW, is an interesting premise - possibly could explain how he showed up just as the walls of Momemn were (apparently) brought down by Yatwer. 

More I think about it, more it seems Kellhus showing up goes beyond fortuitous correspondence of cause - at least I hope so 'cause otherwise the whole WLW arc was a waste...

As for Love...I'm guessing Kellhus realizes it's a Tanglewood Tree...

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2 hours ago, Sci-2 said:

Isn't Korr just pulling a Big Moe here [and making incorrect leaps of logic]?

If Korr had known about the Psukhe, would he then not run off a cliff?

I just wonder if Bakker's point is more about the folly of philosophical theism than it is a commentary of the actual metaphysics of the Bakkerverse?

Given that a) the Dunyain aren't anything more profound than what we've so far seen of them and b ) Moe did basically just that when he found out about the Psukhe, I think that's a fair point. Koringhus might be absolutely jumping to (heh) conclusions. 

That said, from a narrative standpoint that would fucking suck, so I don't think that's the case. If we go through the entire plotline for Akka and Mimara to show how fallible Dunyain thought processes and metaphysical philosophical wankfests are, we could have done it a hell of a lot more efficiently than that. My suspicion is that this was a way to deep dive into the philosophy in a pseudo-organic way, and give us some backstory into what's going to happen next. 

Quote

More I think about it, more it seems Kellhus showing up goes beyond fortuitous correspondence of cause - at least I hope so 'cause otherwise the whole WLW arc was a waste...

Sadly much like the Argument the way that this would be argued (it happened because this was the only way that things could happen for things to work so that they would work this way) is pretty lame and unsatisfying, and I suspect is precisely what is going to happen as Bakker is pretty fond of that mechanism of argument. He's already mentioned how intentionality matters a ton even in stupid things like the whale mothers, and used that to justify things that seemed odd or downright wrong on their face. Kellhus showing up in Momemn just happens because it has to, and if it didn't the other events that happen later couldn't have happened, so therefore it's super important that all of it happened just like this. 

Still makes me wonder why if the Gods can summon earthquakes mighty enough to destroy giant city walls why they can't just shoot someone with lightning or cause one of the various peaks of the surrounding mountains to erupt and explode. 

Quote

He cannot let those emotions rule him entirely, because of what he aims to do. Destroy the Consult, and shut out the Outside. And to accomplish these things, he has no choice but to be a ruthless, manipulative, murdering S.O.B.. I think the final scene in TUC will be Akka kneeling to a dying Kellhus, and him revealing that he has known all along how to obtain The Absolute, by that wasn't the goal. The goal, was to save humanity. 

I suspect that's the goal, yes. That Mimara will see him as the most holy thing ever to exist, because what he has/will have accomplished is the destruction of damnation of souls for all eternity, the most evil thing that has ever been. And no amount of raping second in commands can ever possibly dent that awesomeness. 

What I would like is for Kellhus' intent to be in saving the world, but the world doesn't work on intent - it works on your actions towards your fellow humans and how much you damage them. That this is a universal constant that cannot be changed. It doesn't matter that Kellhus loves everyone or thinks he does or thinks he's doing things for the right reasons, because the right reasons don't matter - only actions do. And his actions are horrible. I would love that Akka is being set up to believe that Kellhus is the most holy, that we are all set up to believe that, and most importantly Kellhus believes it - and he finds out that no, he is the most damned and unholy thing that has ever existed. Furthermore, Kellhus' goal to disenchant the world also ends up being the worst possible thing - that he is removing not only the damnation and the desire, but all the grace from the world. And that there is a better way. 

And then the third series focuses on Mimara and her twins as they hold the key to immanentizing the Eschaton, ending the world as it exists and bringing everyone into a state of nirvana. 

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1 hour ago, Baztek said:

Am I the only one who thinks Yatwer is the only halfway sympathetic God? Also, what's it say that both the Hundred and the Judging Eye see Kellhus as evil? Is it for different reasons? Ayy marrone

I don't see Yatwer as sympathetic at all. She is the God that says that slavery is good and holy and noble and pure. That knowing your place and taking what is given is totally good. She is one of the most evil of the gods that exist, at least to my modern morality. She makes beatings and rape and subjugation and murder holy for the victims. 

It's not clear that the Judging Eye does see Kellhus as evil. It's odd that you'd think that given your stance on the philosophical aspects.

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On July 1, 2016 at 7:20 PM, Madness said:

 

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Common, RRL, do you even read ;)?

 

Haha? sorry, not sure I understand

Anyway, just finished the book last night, and this thread not that long ago. As a lot of people have mentioned, there were some parts that were kind of bummers, story telling wise. But, a lot of shit I really dug, not least of all confirming meppa isn't some cnaighus super saiyan thing. Loved the Survivor, maybe one of my favorite parts of the book. 

While I maintian my indomitable conviction, my unconquerable belief, stuff like the nuke is slightly worrisome that this series could start going all dark tower on us...

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38 minutes ago, R'hllors Red Lobster said:

Haha? sorry, not sure I understand

Anyway, just finished the book last night, and this thread not that long ago. As a lot of people have mentioned, there were some parts that were kind of bummers, story telling wise. But, a lot of shit I really dug, not least of all confirming meppa isn't some cnaighus super saiyan thing. Loved the Survivor, maybe one of my favorite parts of the book. 

While I maintian my indomitable conviction, my unconquerable belief, stuff like the nuke is slightly worrisome that this series could start going all dark tower on us...

Reading the TSA threads, I'm even more annoyed. Seriously, is Esmi fucking dead or not? Was Kelmomas crying out the actual last scene we get of her? If so, what a god damn waste. Madness should use his powers of having read TUC for good and simply tell everyone if she's dead or not. 

Because that's not really a cliffhanger, it's an authorial failure.

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Quote

They did hoist Anarlu's head high,

and poured down its blood as fire.

And the ground gave forth many sons,

ninety-nine who were as Gods,

and so bid their fathers

be as sons ...

So as this bit, as mentioned by someone earlier is clearly indicative of the Nonmen fracturing the God to make the Gods (and the smaller Ciphrang) - who then bid their fathers (the Nonmen) to be as sons (worshipers).   But what did the Nonmen seek by fracturing the God?  To end damnation or merely to create cracks by which to seek Oblivion?

 

My main interest is whether we can derive the actual meaning of the name Anarlu from the previous bits of Nonmanese given so far.  Has anyone compiled a list of all Nonman phrases and language in the books somewhere?

 

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20 minutes ago, Dickwad Poster #3784 said:

Reading the TSA threads, I'm even more annoyed. Seriously, is Esmi fucking dead or not? Was Kelmomas crying out the actual last scene we get of her? If so, what a god damn waste. Madness should use his powers of having read TUC for good and simply tell everyone if she's dead or not. 

Because that's not really a cliffhanger, it's an authorial failure.

Honestly (and maybe I just never had an accurate picture of the place) but I'm amazed anyone could have survived. 

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23 minutes ago, Dickwad Poster #3784 said:

Is it clear that the 'they' in that is nonmen? 

Nawp, but who else could it be? 

 

Edit: Decided to check out Bakker's Q&A on the TSA and I saw that he confirmed the hypothesis that Womb Plague was an accident.  Hilarious.

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25 minutes ago, Claustrophobic Jurble said:

Nawp, but who else could it be? 

Kellhus. Inchoroi. Meppa-as-Moe-as-Heart in the butt.

25 minutes ago, Claustrophobic Jurble said:

 

Edit: Decided to check out Bakker's Q&A on the TSA and I saw that he confirmed the hypothesis that Womb Plague was an accident.  Hilarious.

"So you accidentally, expertly, carefully killed all the nonwomen and made the nonmen immortal?"

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1 hour ago, Dickwad Poster #3784 said:

Reading the TSA threads, I'm even more annoyed. Seriously, is Esmi fucking dead or not? Was Kelmomas crying out the actual last scene we get of her? If so, what a god damn waste. Madness should use his powers of having read TUC for good and simply tell everyone if she's dead or not. 

Because that's not really a cliffhanger, it's an authorial failure.

Madness has not read TUC. TUC is not finished, wasn't finished two years ago. Bakker wasn't able to renegotiate as a four book series until recently and so withheld publication of the completed third volume until he could get it to four. Madness thought the best way to break the news was to first float the idea of a split and claim he'd read the mega volume. Bakker fashioned TGO years ago as a complete novel and that's what madness read in a draft form. No extra material, just different draft.

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Just now, lokisnow said:

Madness has not read TUC. TUC is not finished, wasn't finished two years ago. Bakker wasn't able to renegotiate as a four book series until recently and so withheld publication of the completed third volume until he could get it to four. Madness thought the best way to break the news was to first float the idea of a split and claim he'd read the mega volume. Bakker fashioned TGO years ago as a complete novel and that's what madness read in a draft form. No extra material, just different draft.

Wait...what? Where was this mentioned?

So TUC isn't done then either, and folks might have to wait even longer? 

And the best  way to break this was to...lie to fans? And reviewers? 

Wow. I wonder what @Lord Patrek and @Werthead think about that. A lot of the failings of where TGO ends were forgiven because the next book should be out Really Soon now, but it's not actually even done yet. And all this shit thrown towards Overlook was completely wrong too - it was Bakker holding out, and the only reason it wasn't published sooner was to get another deal. 

Hee.

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