Bakker: The Great Ordeal SPOILER THREAD

[lokisnow]

2 minutes ago, Dickwad Poster #3784 said:

Wait...what? Where was this mentioned?

So TUC isn't done then either, and folks might have to wait even longer? 

And the best  way to break this was to...lie to fans? And reviewers? 

Wow. I wonder what @Lord Patrek and @Werthead think about that. A lot of the failings of where TGO ends were forgiven because the next book should be out Really Soon now, but it's not actually even done yet. And all this shit thrown towards Overlook was completely wrong too - it was Bakker holding out, and the only reason it wasn't published sooner was to get another deal. 

Hee.

Madness said as much in the sticky thread atop the arc subforum

 

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Here you are, the Afflicted, tormented with secret knowledge, revelation which begs only more questions. See how far you have come, commiserating with these brothers and sisters, your fellow survivors on a Slog that has long ago lost all semblance of sense, of meaning, and descended only deeper into despair and madness...

Listen to these, your siblings, and hear the Lament as your own...

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So - this space is for for those of you who frequent the forum, who have somehow found your way into reading an ARC of TGO.

A couple ground rules:
- You don't talk about the content of the TGO ARC outside this subforum.
- You don't talk about the content of the TGO ARC outside this subforum (nod to those who get this reference ;)).
- No obvious spoilers in thread titles (mostly this is for Sovin because as an admin, I can't stop him viewing boards, and possibly Curethan and FB - though I think I've solved their being unable to view this subforum).

Anything else, you are welcome to suggest in this thread.

Also, also (there's a story to this but I prefer to tell it vocally; most of you I've already communed with via Skype or Hangouts - and really, at this time, of the five of us, only Blackstone and H haven't heard this story - so dealer's choice as to when you'd like to hear the full, dramatic version):

I have not read TUC-proper. I received a draft entitled The Great Ordeal, Book Three of The Aspect-Emperor. I believed it was the third and final book in The Aspect-Emperor series and cognitive closure made it seem as though TGO could have finished TAE as a trilogy. The choice I made in my dealings with the fandom after Bakker invited you to query me was one to betray either Bakker's trust as I saw it (because at the time of my reading the draft - Summer '14 - he had not explicit revealed that the manuscript was already split and he was simultaneously working on two books in the hope that his publishers would renegotiate) or troll the fandom. I chose the latter. All the commentary I have made regarding the "Unmentionable" and in the "To Madness..." thread reflect my reading TGO alone - specifically comments made regarding splitting the manuscript and the narrative completing the arc of TAE referred to TGO before I was informed of TUC-proper.

Please keep this to yourselves until release date when I will make this subforum public and post something similar in the "To Madness..." thread.

Cheers.

 

[Sci-2]

9 minutes ago, lokisnow said:

Madness has not read TUC. TUC is not finished, wasn't finished two years ago. Bakker wasn't able to renegotiate as a four book series until recently and so withheld publication of the completed third volume until he could get it to four. Madness thought the best way to break the news was to first float the idea of a split and claim he'd read the mega volume. Bakker fashioned TGO years ago as a complete novel and that's what madness read in a draft form. No extra material, just different draft.

Uh, are you saying Madness lied to us?

Maybe you're not trying to say that but the way you phrase it sounds bad?

[jurble]

Schemes within schemes, the thing called Jurble carelessly thought in what passed for its dying soul.

[Kalbear]

Just now, lokisnow said:

Madness said as much in the sticky thread atop the arc subforum

Sorry; until today I didn't have access to that subforum, and I hadn't bothered reading the sticky thread. Here's the reference if anyone else cares to read it. 

I wonder if that constitutes actual fraud with respect to the reviewers. Did the other reviewers understand this to be the case?

 

[lokisnow]

Pfft, fraud, it's just a contract thing I think. I think my inarticulate phrasing is provoking unnerved outrage. Sorry. 

He couldn't publish an incomplete book as 3 of 3 but he was ready to publish a complete book as 3 of 4 if he could get the contract change he needed from his USA and UK publishers

[lokisnow]

@Dickwad Poster #3784

one of your favorite theories got a little red meat, did you notice?

 

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The Incest Song of Linqiru, Sorweel realized. A version he—or the soul he had become—had never heard, one bearing the warp of the future … of doom come true.

Quote

And he heard her say unto her brother, “Lay with me, tend to my fallow plot, make my barrens bloom, sweet Cet’moiol! Let our Line suffer no iniquity, no alien earth or seed. Let us aim our children as spears!”

Of course, these are the parents of Cujara cinmoi so why are they worried about pollution by alien earth and seed when ark fall allegedly hasn't happened yet?

[Kalbear]

Just now, lokisnow said:

Pfft, fraud, it's just a contract thing I think. I think my inarticulate phrasing is provoking unnerved outrage. Sorry. 

He couldn't publish an incomplete book as 3 of 3 but he was ready to publish a complete book as 3 of 4 if he could get the contract change he needed from his USA and UK publishers

But...that's not accurate, I don't think. The difference is that in one account the book was split and a new deal was negotiated, and then both would be out quickly one right after another. Compare that to what apparently is the truth, which is that the TUC book wasn't completed or even submitted as a manuscript, the final item still isn't completed, and any ETA is guesswork. 

As an example, here's the review from Grimdark:

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The Great Ordeal is itself the first half of a duology. The long-awaited final volume in the Aspect-Emperor series came in at such a hefty size that his publisher has split it into two volumes. Therefore, don’t expect a final resolution. For that, you’ll still have to wait until the next book, but The Great Ordealcertainly paves the way in magnificent style.

And here's what Pat had to say:

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Sadly, I have to report that The Great Ordeal is indeed just part 1 of 2. Considering how long Bakker fans have had to wait to finally get our hands on this one, I can't help but feel disappointed by that fact. Don't get me wrong. The Great Ordeal definitely sets up what should be an unforgettable finale in The Unholy Consult. But as part 1 of 2, it doesn't stand well on its own. In my humble opinion, had it been released as plannedThe Unholy Consult would have been to Bakker what A Storm of Swords was to George R. R. Martin. It would have been the author's crowning achievement, his best work to date. A mindfuck of a book. Now imagine A Storm of Swords split into two volumes and having to wait at least a year to read the rest of the tale. Would part one have been that exceptional? Not by a long shot. . .

And Wert:

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The Great Ordeal was originally the first half of a much longer book that had to be split for publication. 

This is just not actually true. It did not 'come in' at such a hefty size; it was never presented as a single volume. The publisher didn't choose to split it, they were requested to split it. There was never any 'released as planned'. 

A lot of people put pressure on Overlook to release the book because they thought it was done and they were just sitting on it. There was that whole campaign to call the Overlook press and tell them what's going on. People were still confused about why TUC might take more than a year to release if it was done. 

Has Bakker made an official comment on this yet? 

[Kalbear]

4 minutes ago, lokisnow said:

@Dickwad Poster #3784

one of your favorite theories got a little red meat, did you notice?

 

Of course, these are the parents of Cujara cinmoi so why are they worried about pollution by alien earth and seed when ark fall allegedly hasn't happened yet?

Per Bakker (and Jurble referenced this above) the Womb Plague has been confirmed to be just an accident. 

[lokisnow]

Sure but that doesn't mean the idea of nonmen aversion to pollution by alien seed need be discarded. Particularly in the interesting context given.

[Werthead]

My understanding of the situation is that it became clear that Book 3 - the combined TGO/TUC - was going to be far too big to publish in one volume quite some time ago. I think the split was first mentioned as a possibility in 2013, with Bakker speculating a final word count over 300,000 words which would make it the biggest book in both series by far. However, the preference was always going to be to publish as one large novel. Orbit might have gone for that - they routinely publish much bigger books - but Overlook with their tighter budgets and overheads clearly were not able to do so.

That led to a contractual issue since TAE contract was for 3 books, not 4. Renegotiating was essential to ensure that all 4 books came out (and not 3 and then cancellation) and to avoid a Paul Kearney situation. Where the confusion seems to have arisen is that Bakker completed the MS for both parts of the book-as-one-volume, but appears to have polished only the first half (TGO-as-is) to full publisher-ready status. Both the contractual issue and the disappearance of his editor then became major problems impacting on one another. That's where the fan campaign came in and was essential, not to just getting TGO out but to ensuring TUC comes out as well (Bakker was actually quite canny there).

TUC, as far as I know, is completed in draft and is mostly polished, with final revisions and expansions, such as the addition of two chapters, now underway. But the primary writing part of the book is done and Bakker's original work for the book now is focused on the glossary. Publication in summer 2017 seems very achievable.

It's not quite the case the book was written as one big novel that was then subsequently split. Bakker was aware that the book was going to be too big and was thus able to write and structure the novel with a split in mind, which probably explains why TGO works quite well as Part 3 of 4 and doesn't feel like just half a book (or any more than TJE or TWLC isn't a full book).

That's based on my reading of the situation, which of course may be erroneous.

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, Werthead said:

My understanding of the situation is that it became clear that Book 3 - the combined TGO/TUC - was going to be far too big to publish in one volume quite some time ago. I think the split was first mentioned as a possibility in 2013, with Bakker speculating a final word count over 300,000 words which would make it the biggest book in both series by far. However, the preference was always going to be to publish as one large novel. Orbit might have gone for that - they routinely publish much bigger books - but Overlook with their tighter budgets and overheads clearly were not able to do so.

That led to a contractual issue since TAE contract was for 3 books, not 4. Renegotiating was essential to ensure that all 4 books came out (and not 3 and then cancellation) and to avoid a Paul Kearney situation. Where the confusion seems to have arisen is that Bakker completed the MS for both parts of the book-as-one-volume, but appears to have polished only the first half (TGO-as-is) to full publisher-ready status. Both the contractual issue and the disappearance of his editor then became major problems impacting on one another. That's where the fan campaign came in and was essential, not to just getting TGO out but to ensuring TUC comes out as well (Bakker was actually quite canny there).

TUC, as far as I know, is completed in draft and is mostly polished, with final revisions and expansions, such as the addition of two chapters, now underway. But the primary writing part of the book is done and Bakker's original work for the book now is focused on the glossary. Publication in summer 2017 seems very achievable.

That's based on my reading of the situation, which of course may be erroneous.

That was basically my understanding of the situation - but with some other data. Like Madness reading the entire draft, the TGO/TUC being basically all done, that the editing staff at Overlook had made the decision to split it, etc. The impression on the fan campaign was for me that people were upset that Overlook was just 'sitting' on the book, but it appears that they weren't; they had at best gotten the draft of TGO. Perhaps there exists a 'full' version of everything that the editors have read and replied to, but that seems at the very least up for discussion and not to be taken as a definitive statement. 

I also remember that Bakker said a few times how he didn't know what was going on at Overlook and why things were taking so long - I  think this is what prompted the fan campaign - and that appears to be complete bunk. If the second half of the novel isn't fully polished to published manuscript level it's pretty clear what the delay in releasing it would be, no?

[Werthead]

I'm pretty sure Overlook would have absolutely ruled out a 300,000-word novel quite early on, so this wasn't a recent development. That meant Scott would have been writing with four books in mind from reasonably early in the process (I'm pretty sure it first came up in 2013, and he was saying that Book 3 would be massive not long after TWLW came out in 2011). It does sound like Scott played hardball with Overlook over the MS to make sure both books got published and it does sound like there was some slight of hand with the manuscript he gave to Madness, although that seems odd: TGO doesn't read like it could finish the entire AE series, unless they were assuming it was a cliffhanger and TUC was going to be the first book of the final series, and that doesn't sound right.

However, the primary cause of the delay does seem to be the shenanigans with the editor at Overlook leaving and Overlook not communicating about the future of the series (I did hear there were issues on that end from Orbit's end, when they were keen to get moving with the books but didn't have any information from Overlook about what was going on). Without that we may have seen TGO a year or so ago. Whether that would have meant we'd have gotten TUC earlier as well is unknown.

What could do with some further clarification is the degree that the second problem - the contractual realignment to four books - impacted on the delay. It doesn't acutally sound like it did to anything like the degree the editorial issues did.

[Sci-2]

Honestly it seems to me to just be a matter of wording.

Madness read the TGO+TUC manuscript right? Even if it was just an unfinished draft?

If Bakker had given me that manuscript I'd also have said I read the book  - I mean *of course* it's unfinished by it's very nature of not having passed through the editorial process.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

3 minutes ago, Sci-2 said:

Honestly it seems to me to just be a matter of wording.

Madness read the TGO+TUC manuscript right? Even if it was just an unfinished draft?

If Bakker had given me that manuscript I'd also have said I read the book  - I mean *of course* it's unfinished by it's very nature of not having passed through the editorial process.

No he didn't. He's made this clear to me. 

ETA: there never was a split. When Madness received the MS, he believed it was TUC proper.

[Kalbear]

3 minutes ago, Sci-2 said:

Honestly it seems to me to just be a matter of wording.

Madness read the TGO+TUC manuscript right? Even if it was just an unfinished draft?

According to that statement, no. He read only TGO. Reading the threads it's pretty clear now that this is the case, and he was explicit about it. If he has read TUC, he hasn't stated as such. 

Or perhaps he's lying entirely now, I guess. That's also a possibility. Regardless, the finished, ready for editing version of TUC has not been turned in as far as I can tell. And also as far as I can tell, this means there was never a 'finished' manuscript turned into Overlook at any point. They either had all of TGO and some version of TUC, or simply the TGO manuscript that Madness had. 

 

[Sci-2]

Ah ok.

I'll wait for some clarification from Madness here or on 2nd A.

[Kalbear]

4 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

No he didn't. He's made this clear to me. 

ETA: there never was a split. When Madness received the MS, he believed it was TUC proper.

What? These statements are contradictory. Specifically, this is what @Madness wrote:

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I have not read TUC-proper. I received a draft entitled The Great Ordeal, Book Three of The Aspect-Emperor.

 

[lokisnow]

What wert posted squares with my understanding, I think I should have said, based on my understanding that madness was only presented with a draft of TGO but subsequently he claimed to have read a draft that was the non-split book. I think TUC was only complete in the sense that DWD was complete at the Los Angeles January Vromans signing in 2011, substantial writing remained but mostly complete.

 

bakker has said in the author q and a that TUC was written in the same mad tizzy that wrote TGO. He also said he's just added four more chapters and is only just now pulling all the materials together, referring primarily to the appendix

 

facebook tells me today is five years to the day since ADWD was released it wanted to repost my celebratory picture of holding the book for the first time.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

Oh, ok. Its not how I took it when I had a convo with him. My apologies.

But, he also said that he thought in his head that it was the 3rd book, final volume. I guess the name of the book didn't matter at the time. 

[lokisnow]

I think this is the case:

Madness thought he would be reading book three of three

he actually read book three of four and he did not read book four of four. 

He then claimed to have read book three of three and immediately started talking about a split to four books on the forums to condition the ground for a split.