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Bakker: The Great Ordeal SPOILER THREAD


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1 minute ago, Darth Richard II said:

I subscribe to the Madness is just some crazy dude on the internet theory, myself. :P

And, oooo, fraud? These threads are NEVER boring, I tell ya what.

I do have to say, telling all the fans that you've read a book you haven't because of your privileged status is definitely a bold strategy in encouraging fans with an author and fandom. 

Mostly, I'm curious what the actual state of TUC is. Has Overlook even seen it? 

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Fraud seems like a hyperbolic declaration.  I remember when The Deathly Hallows was being released, recalling in how many interviews with JK Rowling she was saying that two of the three main trio would be dead by the end of the novel.  Did that actually occur?—no.  Is that fraud then?—I don't think so.  It's just a way to mess with people's heads and build up hype and what-not. The performativity of lying in this way in regards to genre fiction doesn't seem to have any legal grounding at all.

And the vast % of any people who read TSA don't associate with these forums or the TSA forums or even know who the hell Madness is.  This great betrayal that Kal seems to be insinuating exists won't matter to anyone but him.  We are but a tiny drop in the pool.

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10 minutes ago, LuckyCharms said:

Fraud seems like a hyperbolic declaration.  I remember when The Deathly Hallows was being released, recalling in how many interviews with JK Rowling she was saying that two of the three main trio would be dead by the end of the novel.  Did that actually occur?—no.  Is that fraud then?—I don't think so.  It's just a way to mess with people's heads and build up hype and what-not. The performativity of lying in this way in regards to genre fiction doesn't seem to have any legal grounding at all.

And the vast % of any people who read TSA don't associate with these forums or the TSA forums or even know who the hell Madness is.  This great betrayal that Kal seems to be insinuating exists won't matter to anyone but him.  We are but a tiny drop in the pool.

Fraud is hyperbole. That's totally fair.

At the same time, giving reviewers the impression that the book was split and separately published instead of stating that one of the parts is done and the other isn't gives a false impression, and that's not great. Madness can do whatever he chooses - but when Bakker implies to the reviewers that the book was split and lets them spread that to their audience, that's a bit more problematic. Ultimately it probably won't matter assuming that the release date is met. 

I guess if I were a reviewer and was basing my review on the notion that this is just half a novel and the other would be coming out super soon because, ya know, it was already done - I'd be bothered that this was a false statement. Mostly because at that point it isn't Bakker's credibility that gets damaged - it would be me, as a reviewer. 

Personally I doubt there was a lot of malice or specific desire to mislead on Bakker's part. I think that he's said that there's a whole lot about the publishing thing that he wished he could have talked about but had not done so. At the time we had thought that Overlook was being totally dickish, but perhaps that was simply part and parcel of negotiation. That's a little weird, but so it goes. 

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What exactly did Bakker say to make people think TUC was passed the editing stage?

I feel like it's easy to think he made claims he didn't - for example I simply cannot recall his statements from assumptions made.

IIRC I noted painted Overlook as a villain was silly. Go me.

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11 minutes ago, Sci-2 said:

What exactly did Bakker say to make people think TUC was passed the editing stage?

I feel like it's easy to think he made claims he didn't - for example I simply cannot recall his statements from assumptions made.

IIRC I noted painted Overlook as a villain was silly. Go me.

I'm not sure what claims he made. The thread on 'save Unholy Consult' posted here certainly implies that it's just been sitting there on Overlook's desk. The reference to it being submitted indicates that this was done in January 2015, but it's really unclear what 'it' is in this context, any more. In the comments there he mentions this:

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When it comes to the books, it’s just not cricket for an author to divulge on issues that bear on outstanding contracts–that’s the only reason I’m being cagey. Penguin has elected to distribute the Overlook edition, which sucks, but hey. Neither Overlook nor Orbit has made any troubling noises of any kind, despite being well within their rights to do so. The big issue is editorial turn over: my new editors need to do a helluva lot of reading to properly place TUC. Apparently asses have large emissions as well!

So yeah, it's totally unclear about who made what decision and when. I guess the conclusion that I can reasonably reach is that Bakker decided at least a year before handing in the 'final' manuscript to split the books into two, but did not announce that until much later. 

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I always had the feeling that that whole "plying Madness" thing was just a stunt to get people to join Tsa forum. But do we really know that Madness is telling the truth now that he was lying (or was lied to?) back then and not lying now or that Bakker isn't lying to him (again?)? Maybe TGO is actually the conclusion of tAE.

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It's possible Madness is Bakker's future son who has traveled back in time....eh I was gonna try and make Kal represent Yatwer with Darth being Ajokli but fuck it too tired to weave fan-fiction out of my honeyed anus right now.

So, back to the actual book.

It's interesting that Kellhus is seen as having the deepest Mark by Malowebi even though Kellhus himself reflects that he is stronger than even Titirga...yet Titirga has somehow managed to wash out his Mark.

Did Kellhus come across any writings about Titirga? Was this ever noted in any surviving historical document? 

For reference here's the bit from False Sun about Titirga's sorcery:

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And Shaeönanra knew that this was no ploy, that Titirga would, without a breath of hesitation, deliver his impossible fury to his tower. He had heard the tales–the whole Ground had heard the tales. Titirga Mithalara, they called him–the Giver of Mercy!–ironic renown for his ruthless extermination of his foes. He was certainly the most powerful Insinger ever born. And if what Cet’ingira said was true, the most powerful, period. No living Quya had the purity of his Recitations. Even his Stain was different, somehow muted, as if he could cut the Inward without scarring it. Even now, simply regarding him, his distinction literally glared from his image, a strange, sideways rinsing of the Stain.

The vital difference. The threat.

They said he had been blind as a child, that Noshainrau himself had found him begging in the streets. They said he went mad while Canting. They said his words seized things that should not be seized

 

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I loved the Ishoriol segments of the book, especially the Boatman who went so far Erratic that he came right back around to "sane" again (or was just so totally weird because he got the Immortality Treatment at such an old age). It's also always fascinating to learn more about the Nonmen and their beliefs, including their opposite views on theology versus humans (i.e. "fuck off gods, we want oblivion and you can't have our souls" vs humans' appeasement, and the "dig your way to oblivion!" plan). And that Oinaral Lastborn is Intact because he was lowly and without glory. 

Weird that Bakker confirmed that the Womb Plague was accidental. What, were the Inchoroi trying to make a sexually transmitted super-plague and accidentally fucked up the transmission of it? 

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1 hour ago, Sci-2 said:

It's interesting that Kellhus is seen as having the deepest Mark by Malowebi even though Kellhus himself reflects that he is stronger than even Titirga...yet Titirga has somehow managed to wash out his Mark.

Titirga was blind and his Mark was weak - Bakker's clearly drawing parallels with the Psukhe here.  Somehow, Titirga was able to better recall the God's passion, per Kellhus' understanding of the Psukhe, due to his condition somehow and so his meanings resembled the God's better.  Kellhus' emotions remain vestigial and so he can't use them to reinforce his meanings.

 

46 minutes ago, Electric Bass said:

 

Weird that Bakker confirmed that the Womb Plague was accidental. What, were the Inchoroi trying to make a sexually transmitted super-plague and accidentally fucked up the transmission of it? 

 

His exact words indicate their intention was wholly benevolent.

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The simplest way to look at the Womb Plague is as a kluge. The Inchoroi are stuck with the remnants of a technology they can no longer understand. At the same time, think of what it is the No-God, as a technology, yields the Inchoroi: the death of birth. They attempted to give immortality to their Nonmen allies to begin with, to save their souls, realized afterward that their gift was fatal to their women. This yielded a crude tool they needed to accomplish at least part of the No-God's function.

- Bakker on TSA forum

 

His words actually seem to indicate the Still-Birth aspect of the No-God isn't metaphysical but biological, somehow, since I can't see how otherwise the Womb-Plague would aid the No-God's function.   This might explain why it's necessary the No-God takes the field?  He spews an endless plague?  The Whirlwind is a viral dispersion device?

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9 hours ago, Claustrophobic Jurble said:

Titirga was blind and his Mark was weak - Bakker's clearly drawing parallels with the Psukhe here.  Somehow, Titirga was able to better recall the God's passion, per Kellhus' understanding of the Psukhe, due to his condition somehow and so his meanings resembled the God's better.  Kellhus' emotions remain vestigial and so he can't use them to reinforce his meanings.

His exact words indicate their intention was wholly benevolent.

His words actually seem to indicate the Still-Birth aspect of the No-God isn't metaphysical but biological, somehow, since I can't see how otherwise the Womb-Plague would aid the No-God's function.   This might explain why it's necessary the No-God takes the field?  He spews an endless plague?  The Whirlwind is a viral dispersion device?

It's interesting though that Kellhus doesn't even mention what apparently was a major deal in Antiquity - the rinsed nature of Titirga's Mark. Did he know about it or is that fact lost to time? It's possible historical records didn't note it.

I do think the No God cannot simply hang out until the world population dwindles. Whether it requires fuel of some sort or is increasingly unstable over time I think the Consult has to actually engage its enemies to dwindle the populace enough to shut the Inward from the Outside.

Also, does this shutting apply only to Earwa or to all Creation? Seems like the latter? Though it's not clear why the Consult thinks this would work...

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14 hours ago, Electric Bass said:

especially the Boatman who went so far Erratic that he came right back around to "sane" again (or was just so totally weird because he got the Immortality Treatment at such an old age)

My impression of the Boatman was that, unlike an Erratic who can form new memories via suffering and sadism, he can't form anything new because his own life was so violent to begin with that he's inured to further suffering, like trying to further ink a blackened page - so he's stuck performing the same routine endlessly.

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5 hours ago, Sci-2 said:

It's interesting though that Kellhus doesn't even mention what apparently was a major deal in Antiquity - the rinsed nature of Titirga's Mark. Did he know about it or is that fact lost to time? It's possible historical records didn't note it.

I do think the No God cannot simply hang out until the world population dwindles. Whether it requires fuel of some sort or is increasingly unstable over time I think the Consult has to actually engage its enemies to dwindle the populace enough to shut the Inward from the Outside.

Also, does this shutting apply only to Earwa or to all Creation? Seems like the latter? Though it's not clear why the Consult thinks this would work...

I think it's all Creation, which would tie into the "Earwa is a special world" idea that's been reinforced by the Inchoroi on multiple occasions. Earwa is the Special Ground where metaphysical change is a possibility.

Nau-Cayuti was part of the No-God, so maybe it took the field at Mengedda because of his personal connection to Seswatha - up to that point, it might not have known where Seswatha was.

Speaking of Mengedda, does Saubon's last vision before he got dragged to Hell inside out indicate that he's "stuck" metaphysically both at Mengedda and in Hell - like how the Wathi dolls are partially trapped in the doll and partially trapped in Hell/Heaven?

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21 minutes ago, Electric Bass said:

Speaking of Mengedda, does Saubon's last vision before he got dragged to Hell inside out indicate that he's "stuck" metaphysically both at Mengedda and in Hell - like how the Wathi dolls are partially trapped in the doll and partially trapped in Hell/Heaven?

I took it as he just went back to that moment when the bones were regurgitated. No, I think he is firmly in hell.

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Random thought: Has anyone ever considered or examined the possibility that the Nonmen and Humans are alien colonizers themselves of Earwaworld?  Perhaps their civilization collapsed following the discovery of magic.  Though, I can't account for the divergence - presumably - of Nonmen from Men at some point.  As pointed out there are other 'strike sites' resembling Golgotterath on the map.  And the Thoti-Eannorean being the common language of all men in Eanna and Earwa prior to linguistic divergence is easiest explained by all men possessing a common language when they arrived on the planet.

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