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Bakker: The Great Ordeal SPOILER THREAD


Werthead

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4 hours ago, lokisnow said:

I took it that hell is timeless.

 

But if it is setting up time travel by DeLorean nuclear explosions, then the name of the third series is "the first apocalypse.

That's a Madness theory from years ago. "First Apocalypse", I mistakenly attributed it to Nerdanel (sp? back in 2014)

http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1080.msg12075#msg12075

EDIT: Ah it is me and you talking about it lol. No wonder it jogged my memory. :D

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I think we have a much simpler explanation per Koringhus. 

If I can experience what someone else feels through their skin, why do I need to do it at a specific time? Why can't I tell what Seswatha is feeling 2000 years ago? Why can't I experience what Nau-Cayuti is feeling as he suffers from his torture? 

When one is many and I am all, what does time matter? 

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16 hours ago, Claustrophobic Jurble said:

Random thought: Has anyone ever considered or examined the possibility that the Nonmen and Humans are alien colonizers themselves of Earwaworld?  Perhaps their civilization collapsed following the discovery of magic.  Though, I can't account for the divergence - presumably - of Nonmen from Men at some point.  As pointed out there are other 'strike sites' resembling Golgotterath on the map.  And the Thoti-Eannorean being the common language of all men in Eanna and Earwa prior to linguistic divergence is easiest explained by all men possessing a common language when they arrived on the planet.

Possible. We know that the nonman immural invented magic as a means to fight damnation, seems to have backfired, though. Humans also seem very distinct from emwamma, so perhaps they were spacefaring as well.

nonmen are known as the people of the dawn, but they hate the light and sky, so an interesting term.

there's always the possibility that humans are the first attempt at sranc, the inchoroi messing with the emwamma bios to create lust driven suffering worshipping armies. After wards they did the sranc but this time removed the brain modules for consciousness from the nonman body, thus eliminating  the possibility of souls.

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The Emwama resemble Homo Floresiensis, but I think that particularity is due to their breeding by the Nonmen.  I can't imagine the Emwama in their current state were useful as soldiers as the Nonmen used them in previous ages.

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13 hours ago, Dickwad Poster #3784 said:

I think we have a much simpler explanation per Koringhus. 

If I can experience what someone else feels through their skin, why do I need to do it at a specific time? Why can't I tell what Seswatha is feeling 2000 years ago? Why can't I experience what Nau-Cayuti is feeling as he suffers from his torture? 

When one is many and I am all, what does time matter? 

Good Point.

True however in physical form folk seem to be bound by time, he felt his son's palm touching the grass (or whatever it was) at the same time, not before or after. From elsewhere though (outside) that seems to be different, kellhus been to the outside before when he speaks to the Son's. Kellhus "appearing" to Celemonas as he dies.

obviously all speculation.

 

I think Esme was planning on forgiving her. As she saw herself in her, and how she would have done the same. Interesting that she "understood" the girl like Mimara understands and forgives koringhus for being broken (like me), however a half Dunyain advises her to kill instead of forgive.

 

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Couple quick questions (I confess, I didn't read the book that carefully so would appreciate some help here):

1) I don't really get how the WLW failed. The Gods are supposed to exist outside of time, perceiving past, present, and future (i.e. block universe). But if that's the case, how can the timeline seen by the WLW (the one leading to Kellhus's death) change? Does this mean there are multiple possible timelines?

2) Did Kellhus know about the WLW, or did he survive by sheer luck? 

3) Yatwer is behind both WLW and Sorweel, right? If the WLW warrior failed, are supposed to think her plot with Sorweel is doomed too? (Now that I think about it--what was the point of involving Sorweel at all if the WLW is infallible?

4) Is there any evidence--from any of the books--that heaven actually exists? IIRC everybody that Mimara looks at with the Judging Eye is damned.

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1 hour ago, draft0 said:

Couple quick questions (I confess, I didn't read the book that carefully so would appreciate some help here):

1) I don't really get how the WLW failed. The Gods are supposed to exist outside of time, perceiving past, present, and future (i.e. block universe). But if that's the case, how can the timeline seen by the WLW (the one leading to Kellhus's death) change? Does this mean there are multiple possible timelines?

2) Did Kellhus know about the WLW, or did he survive by sheer luck? 

3) Yatwer is behind both WLW and Sorweel, right? If the WLW warrior failed, are supposed to think her plot with Sorweel is doomed too? (Now that I think about it--what was the point of involving Sorweel at all if the WLW is infallible?

4) Is there any evidence--from any of the books--that heaven actually exists? IIRC everybody that Mimara looks at with the Judging Eye is damned.

1. The very fact of the White Luck Warrior - that all happenstance goes his way - indicates that Yatwer is actively intervening in the world to ensure the outcomes, her perception in and of itself doesn't mean the outcome is certain - else how would the WLW even exist? He's a divine instrument, she's got infinite hands moving infinite pieces across a chessboard, but there's still other players - in this case, Ajokli.   A block universe means time doesn't real, it doesn't mean someone outside time (Yatwer and Ajokli) can't interact with it.

 

2. Ajokli intervened via li'l Kel.  That said, I don't think Kellhus can actually die.  He's probably got a Shaeonanra-esque back-up plan should his mortal body die.

 

3. Yatwer knows other Gods can disrupt the WLW, Sorweel's her back up.  But Yatwer is also blind to the No-God, and the Lastborn seems to have convinced him that Kellhus' goals coincide with is own.  Given that Yatwer is blind even to the shadows cast by the No-God (unlike Ajokli), she's dismissing out of hand the possibility that Sorweel can be convinced to not kill Kellhus. 

 

 

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4) Is there any evidence--from any of the books--that heaven actually exists? IIRC everybody that Mimara looks at with the Judging Eye is damned.

There is at least one person that looks holy - Mimara. She looks penitent and pure. 

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19 minutes ago, LuckyCharms said:

Celmomas II too.  If we take his vision of Gilgaol at face value.

That doesn't necessarily mean he's "holy", though, just that he has the favor of Gilgaol and will end up in his clutches upon death. Ending up with one of the Hundred after death isn't avoiding damnation. It's just that you end up as a different kind of "bread", possibly as part of the "moaning Countless" described as broth for the "Other Sons" (I interpreted that as moaning in pleasure). There was a chapter beginning quote about how the "sighs in heaven" and "screams in hell" ultimately sounded the same that someone brought up way back. 

As far as we can tell, the only people who are going to avoid damnation (so far) are Mimara and possibly Koringhus. We have no idea what would happen to someone whose soul has only been "slightly" scarred by sin, the type of sin that a basically decent person living an unexceptional life might incur. 

Triskan said:

Did we once hear it suggested that Ajokli is the only God who is not blind to the No-God?  If so, did Ajokli intervene because he has foreseen Kellhus destroying the No-God and didn't want Yatwer to kill Kellhus?  Because Ajokli is the only God who feels properly threatened by the No-God that could cut the Gods off from their bread? 

I think it's not that he can "see" the No-God, so much that he's the only God who has looked at the "shadows" of the No-God's presence and put two-and-two together to realize that the No-God must be real. The other 99 still seem to think that all talk of the No-God is lies and deception. 

And yeah, I could see him intervening to save Kellhus because he figures Kellhus will stop the No-God, and in any case he's damned - once he dies, they can torment him for his sins for all eternity anyways. It's win-win as far as he knows. Or it could be that he's just behaving according to his nature - he's the Trickster God of deception, so maybe he's doing it just so he can fuck up the other Gods' plans with the White Luck Warrior. 

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What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch? I’ll have you know I graduated top of my class in Ishual, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret raids on Golgotterath, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I’m the top self-moving soul in the entire Three Seas. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Ground, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over a Scrying Cant? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of Zaudanyaini across Earwa and your Mark is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You’re fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can make you love you in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just with this voice. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire Gnosis of the Mandati and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little “clever” comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit cants all over you and you will drown in it. You’re fucking dead, kiddo.

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3 hours ago, Claustrophobic Jurble said:

1. The very fact of the White Luck Warrior - that all happenstance goes his way - indicates that Yatwer is actively intervening in the world to ensure the outcomes, her perception in and of itself doesn't mean the outcome is certain - else how would the WLW even exist? He's a divine instrument, she's got infinite hands moving infinite pieces across a chessboard, but there's still other players - in this case, Ajokli.   A block universe means time doesn't real, it doesn't mean someone outside time (Yatwer and Ajokli) can't interact with it.

 

2. Ajokli intervened via li'l Kel.  That said, I don't think Kellhus can actually die.  He's probably got a Shaeonanra-esque back-up plan should his mortal body die.

 

3. Yatwer knows other Gods can disrupt the WLW, Sorweel's her back up.  But Yatwer is also blind to the No-God, and the Lastborn seems to have convinced him that Kellhus' goals coincide with is own.  Given that Yatwer is blind even to the shadows cast by the No-God (unlike Ajokli), she's dismissing out of hand the possibility that Sorweel can be convinced to not kill Kellhus. 

 

 

1. Only the Eschaton could intervene to disrupt the white luck warriors designs, everything else is contained within the eschatology of the world and subject to the white luck, even the other gods. Since the Eschaton is immune to the white luck, and we know the No God is the Eschaton, this suggests that the no god intervened on kellhus behalf, possibly or probably because kellhus is the no god.

the no god showed celmomas a vision of kellhus,  (naturally the eschaton is able to see the end of the eschatology to show celmomas his avatar at the end of the world), Skafra, after all, tells Seswatha the no god tasted celmomas' passing, and we know celmomas was conferring with a four horned being, who per Skafra must be the no god doing the conferring. Ajokli has four horns so this suggests the god inside the no god was once ajokli.

We know the no god is written by the author as "A better way to think of the No-God is as a philosophical zombie (p-zombie), of a piece with all the other soulless instruments of the Inchoroi. A perfectly [non]conscious god, and so in that respect, entirely at one with material reality, continuous with it, and so an agency invisible to the Outside" and we know that kelmomas discovered that the narindar was a completely non conscious actor therefor the narindar is the no god.

but, kelmomas learned to be perfectly non conscious in his studiess and thus disrupt the eschatology because kelmomas is in fact the no god.

tldr: ajokli is a red herring, the no god is the only being capable of disrupting the white luck, but no one understands how the fuck the no god works because obviously the no god cannot be both the Eschaton perfectly outside material reality and simultaneously entirely at one with material reality. Hence the everyone is the no god nerdanel.

3. Yatwer has totally succeeded. Serwa is now in love with her avatar, sorweel, and thus the pair is now a perfect vector to get close to kellhus. And sorweel believes himself no longer in her thrall so kellhus won't be able to read her designs indirectly, and will let his guard down just enough.

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1 hour ago, Baztek said:

What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch? I’ll have you know I graduated top of my class in Ishual, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret raids on Golgotterath, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I’m the top self-moving soul in the entire Three Seas. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Ground, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over a Scrying Cant? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of Zaudanyaini across Earwa and your Mark is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You’re fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can make you love you in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just with this voice. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire Gnosis of the Mandati and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little “clever” comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit cants all over you and you will drown in it. You’re fucking dead, kiddo.

Heh, where's this from again?

=-=-=

4 minutes ago, lokisnow said:

We know the no god is written by the author as "A better way to think of the No-God is as a philosophical zombie (p-zombie), of a piece with all the other soulless instruments of the Inchoroi. A perfectly [non]conscious god, and so in that respect, entirely at one with material reality, continuous with it, and so an agency invisible to the Outside" and we know that kelmomas discovered that the narindar was a completely non conscious actor therefor the narindar is the no god.

If the No-God is in material reality does that still allow it to transcend its destruction (supposedly) via the Heron Spear?

Have to admit the No-God being some kind of AI without self-awareness is kind lame compared to ideas that've been provided here.

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Bakker on chorae:

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It's been so long I'm honestly not sure of their original provenance. The idea, however, is that intentionality is objectively real, which means that Earwa is chalk-filled with transcendental signifieds--which is basically what sorcery amounts to, transcendental signification, utterances true by virtue of materializing their objects. "Deconstruction" understood as a peculiar, hyper-intellectualized form of interpretation is simply a false theory in Earwa. But the objectivity of signification suggests the objectification of any number of semantic phenomena (after all, this is basically what premodern and fantastic ontologies consist in), including  the collapse of apparently true claims into contradiction or aporia. Chorae concretize the collapse of intentionality into contradiction, thus undoing transcendental significations not bound into the intelligibility of the whole, that is, the sorcerous vandalism of Nonmen and Men.

With topos the idea is simply that suffering, as something objective, itself entails an objective toll, one commensurate with the intuitive premium it commands. Too much has the effect of rubbing existence itself raw.

He also says chorae are ontological stressors, but I can't find the quote.

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3 hours ago, lokisnow said:

He also says chorae are ontological stressors, but I can't find the quote.

 

 

Quote


Mike mentioned this on TPB as the 'question of questions,' but I'm sure this in the books somewhere. Wracu find them painful, for reasons that are hotly contested. One interpretation involves the fact that it's not just places where atrocity wears thin the fabric of the onta. As Wutteat shows, it's beings as well. Wracu, some argue, are demonic in some respect.

Another interpretation turns on the way morality is intrinsic to the ontology of the World. If you look at Chorae as 'logic bombs' designed to obliterate violations of code, then you can chart antipathies to Chorae according to different kinds of violations. Thus the difference between Schoolmen and Cishaurim. Wracu are not simply Inchoroi abominations, they are Inchoroi abominations possessing souls. Like the Cishaurim, they do not so much violate the 'letter' as the 'spirit' of natural law. Chorae are 'ontological stressors' in the latter instance.

 

From here.

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