Bakker: The Great Ordeal SPOILER THREAD

[caffiend]

I don't think the Consult are even near out of Sranc with the end of the battle around Dagliash. We see a special kind of Sranc keeping other Sranc from the Scylvendi as well as them eating Sranc. My guess is that there are a lot more in Agongerea.

 

Anyways, from this perspective it doesn't seem that the Consult are such terrible tacticians. Sranc suck, suck, suck as warriors, at least the regular kind do, so why not throw tons away at Ishual.

 

As to the nuke, my guess is that the consult had only one or a few and Aurax and Aurang don't know how to build one. They aren't going to waste one at Ishual when 1.) they'll get the job done eventually and 2) There is little threat of Dunyain breaking out and threatening them elsewhere. I wonder how they even learned about Ishual in the first place? Did their interrogation of northern tribesmen get them some info they could use to pinpoint the way?

 

Kelhus' victory at Mommen seemed way too cheap. I really hate Kelmomas and was upset his sister died. I was hoping Thelli would kill that little brat.

 

My questions?

1. Was that a sorcerer among the Scylvendi? 

2. Where is Aurax? Have we seen him yet at some point or has it always been Aurang we've seen?

[themerchant]

The white luck warrior vision changes more than once.

The first time we see him killing "aspect emperor" his blade breaks and pierces his heart i think.

The second time it is thrown and pierces his neck

The third time Kel shouts and startles the WLW.

That's all the ones i remember it may change more, so something was changing the "how" of the killing of Kellhus.

[.H.]

13 minutes ago, caffiend said:

My questions?

1. Was that a sorcerer among the Scylvendi? 

2. Where is Aurax? Have we seen him yet at some point or has it always been Aurang we've seen?

The person they see is one of the Few, but is not a sorcerer because he does not practice any sorcery at all.  Useful because he can spot other members of the Few.

There has always been a debate if the Inchoroi we see at the very end of TWP is Aurang or Aurax.  I've always felt it was Aurax due to it's slightly differing speech patterns and the fact that it was risking showing itself in the flesh.  This is also based on Kellhus telling us that the Synthese is powered by sorcerers projecting Aurang's soul (?) into the bird while his body lays inert.  This could simply be wrong on his part.  Aurang showing himself in person (seemingly?) in TGO leaves some doubt though, unless, of course, this was simply yet another glamour cast around the Synthese but it seems unlikely.

All that to say, I don't think we know.  I still have a feeling that Aurax is shown in TWP, but maybe not?

[Spring Bass]

@.H.

Wracu possessing souls would explain a lot about the behavior of the ones we see in the books. They seem to have a sense of identity and self-awareness that the other Weapon Races lack (although even that gets confusing, since the Prince of Nothing trilogy has chapters from the POV of a skin-spy).

[.H.]

26 minutes ago, Electric Bass said:

@.H.

Wracu possessing souls would explain a lot about the behavior of the ones we see in the books. They seem to have a sense of identity and self-awareness that the other Weapon Races lack (although even that gets confusing, since the Prince of Nothing trilogy has chapters from the POV of a skin-spy).

Indeed, although I think that us having seen so much of Wutteät leads us a little astray of what the derivative Wracu "truly" are.

Wutteät is an alien, he wasn't created, he was found, he says so himself (basically).  The rest are probably Tekne recreations of him, birthed most probably as the Inchoroi actually are.  It sure is interesting that they have souls, since other Tekne creations don't, but I think that is partly done on purpose.

If the purpose is the reduce the world to 144,000 souls, Sranc having souls would directly work against that aim in the long run.  Same with Bashrags.  So that was probably a design intention, not a failure.  This immediately had me think of skin-spies though, how advantageous it would be to have them be souled.  I think it might come down to one of two things: either it was a design failure, due to the "late arrival" of skin-spies (most of the Tekne was already lost) or a fact that skin-spies are so completely unnatural, that they cannot be souled.  Perhaps then Sranc and Bashrag couldn't even be made with souls then, their gnome far too edited (again, not that they'd even have wanted this).

I think skin-spies though were given "surrogate souls" in a way though, so to better impersonate people, but honestly I don't even know what that means.

[themerchant]

Kellhus in TTT says they are just crude approximations of souls, and Akka comments that it is more than enough to replace them.

AI's failing the "Turing test" of paradoxes.

[.H.]

2 minutes ago, themerchant said:

Kellhus in TTT says they are just crude approximations of souls, and Akka comments that it is more than enough to replace them.

AI's failing the "Turing test" of paradoxes.

Yeah, I knew there was something about that somewhere, I just couldn't recall.  I didn't want to extend my post too much also, because I wasn't really sure I was making much sense and I didn't want to meander too far.

[Sci-2]

2 hours ago, .H. said:

 Aurang showing himself in person (seemingly?) in TGO leaves some doubt though, unless, of course, this was simply yet another glamour cast around the Synthese but it seems unlikely.

All that to say, I don't think we know.  I still have a feeling that Aurax is shown in TWP, but maybe not?

Isn't it more likely?

I mean is Aurang, who is terrified of damnation, going to just show up given the possibility Kellhus can teleport and make [a] cyclone to just dash Aurang into paste?

[.H.]

13 minutes ago, Sci-2 said:

Isn't it more likely?

I mean is Aurang, who is terrified of damnation, going to just show up given the possibility Kellhus can teleport and make [a] cyclone to just dash Aurang into paste?

Yeah, in a manner, perhaps more likely.  However, if it wasn't actually him in the flesh, why bother with a glamour at all?  Just to fuck with Saccarees?  That definitely makes him a bigger target.  My thought was he needed to be there in the flesh to actually lift the bomb, or arm it, or something.  I guess he was betting that Kellhus would need a moment to inspect it, so he'd have enough time to get away?

Still seems like a bad idea for Kellhus not to teleport and kill him.  Why didn't he?  He actually wants the Consult to play out their whole hand?

[Hello World]

There was a theory that Aurang and Aurax exist in the same body, like Kelmomas and Samarmas.

[Hello World]

Is it possible for Yatwer to just create another WLW right away and try to kill Kellhus again?

[Kalnestk Oblast]

12 minutes ago, Hello World said:

Is it possible for Yatwer to just create another WLW right away and try to kill Kellhus again?

If the gods can make earthquakes, why not? Anything is possible!

[draft0]

15 hours ago, Dickwad Poster #3784 said:

There is at least one person that looks holy - Mimara. She looks penitent and pure. 

Ah, okay. So 99.99% of humanity is damned, except Mimara and maybe Celmomas II/Koringhus.

Or Mimara hangs out with too many shady characters

15 hours ago, Claustrophobic Jurble said:

1. The very fact of the White Luck Warrior - that all happenstance goes his way - indicates that Yatwer is actively intervening in the world to ensure the outcomes, her perception in and of itself doesn't mean the outcome is certain - else how would the WLW even exist? He's a divine instrument, she's got infinite hands moving infinite pieces across a chessboard, but there's still other players - in this case, Ajokli.   A block universe means time doesn't real, it doesn't mean someone outside time (Yatwer and Ajokli) can't interact with it.

See, that's the part that I'm still wrapping my head around. A block universe does mean time is real--in fact, past, present, and future are all equally real and fixed. Only the flow of time is an illusion. Thus the whole refrain in the books that "what happens always happened." Yatwer's interventions from outside time into such a universe should likewise have already happened. Everything the WLW sees is a true vision of a future that already exists.

For the WLW to fail, something must have changed reality at a four-dimensional spacetime level--creating a new timeline or parallel universe. Perhaps Ajokli and the other gods have this power?

Quote

3. Yatwer knows other Gods can disrupt the WLW, Sorweel's her back up.  But Yatwer is also blind to the No-God, and the Lastborn seems to have convinced him that Kellhus' goals coincide with is own.  Given that Yatwer is blind even to the shadows cast by the No-God (unlike Ajokli), she's dismissing out of hand the possibility that Sorweel can be convinced to not kill Kellhus. 

I see, so Yatwer wants backup plans. That makes sense to me.

Sorweel is certainly in a position to kill Kellhus with a Chorae, especially if Kellhus doesn't recognize the threat that Sorweel poses. I'm not convinced that Kellhus is as powerful as he seems to think. His butt was saved from the WLW by Ajokli/Kelmomas, not through any apparent action or knowledge of his own.

11 hours ago, lokisnow said:

1. Only the Eschaton could intervene to disrupt the white luck warriors designs, everything else is contained within the eschatology of the world and subject to the white luck, even the other gods. Since the Eschaton is immune to the white luck, and we know the No God is the Eschaton, this suggests that the no god intervened on kellhus behalf, possibly or probably because kellhus is the no god [...] tldr: ajokli is a red herring, the no god is the only being capable of disrupting the white luck, but no one understands how the fuck the no god works because obviously the no god cannot be both the Eschaton perfectly outside material reality and simultaneously entirely at one with material reality. Hence the everyone is the no god nerdanel.

Only the No-God has the power to modify reality at a four-dimensional (i.e. eschatalogical) level. Interesting idea!

What about the God of Gods/the Absolute? Shouldn't it also have this power?

5 hours ago, themerchant said:

The white luck warrior vision changes more than once.

The first time we see him killing "aspect emperor" his blade breaks and pierces his heart i think.

The second time it is thrown and pierces his neck

The third time Kel shouts and startles the WLW.

That's all the ones i remember it may change more, so something was changing the "how" of the killing of Kellhus.

I just went back and reread that scene and the WLW's vision never changes. Esmenet kneels at Kellhus's feet, he says "What have you done?", there's an earthquake and the ceiling caves in, and while Kellhus is dodging rocks/Chorae the WLW throws his sword and it goes through Kellhus's throat. The vision is contradicted when Kelmomas shouts "Mommy," causing Kellhus to step away and the WLW to freeze.

Esmenet appears to actually have been killed by the falling ceiling. Admittedly, that's probably a cheap cliffhanger.

[themerchant]

Have you read the passages in the White luck warrior too?

"The notch that would shatter his sword, so allowing the broken blade to plunge into the Aspect-
Emperor's heart."

Start of Chapter eight WLW.

[draft0]

Oh! Nope, I missed that.

This kind of defenestrates my block time theory...

(And a part of me wonders whether this is a continuity error on Bakker's part.)

[Larry of the Lake]

I'm just hoping the gods aren't actually causing earthquakes etc, but instead are just taking advantage of them via their god entangled minions.

[Sci-2]

10 hours ago, larrytheimp said:

I'm just hoping the gods aren't actually causing earthquakes etc, but instead are just taking advantage of them via their god entangled minions.

The phrase "god-entangled" - it's interesting to see what feels like a nod to quantum entanglement.

In some of the other dialogue of the Nonmen it seemed there was a more modern kind of speaking compared to mortal men, especially when you compare the narrative descriptions in False Sun.

Could this signify something of value?

[jurble]

4 minutes ago, Triskan said:

New hardback was $28+ at B&N even with a card.  Damn!  I still bought it.

The Koringhus chapter refers to Mimara as being the wife-daughter of Kellhus and says something like that she's carrying her mother's children.  WTF does this mean?

Also, what's up with the different fraction viewpoints within Koringhus' viewpoint?  Is that the "Legion" that the Dunyain fight against breaking out? 

Wife-daughter i.e. wife's daughter i.e. step-daughter.  Mother's children as in Achamian's children since Esmenet was his wife.

Yeah, I think it's the Legion we've seen Kellhus refer to, he's crazy.  His mind broke during the endless fighting.   Lil kid Dunyain remembers at one point, should be near wherever you are, that Koringhus told him not to breathe because the clouds were spies.

[lokisnow]

3 hours ago, Triskan said:

New hardback was $28+ at B&N even with a card.  Damn!  I still bought it.

The Koringhus chapter refers to Mimara as being the wife-daughter of Kellhus and says something like that she's carrying her mother's children.  WTF does this mean?

Also, what's up with the different fraction viewpoints within Koringhus' viewpoint?  Is that the "Legion" that the Dunyain fight against breaking out? 

I've been wondering and wondering when this would come up. Started to think I was the only one who noticed it.

My take was that koringhus thinks that Mimara was kellhus wife as well, but Mimara may have no memory of this. This would be why she's carrying a long gestating dunyain child.

just think, akka wouldn't have had to sleep with her if the author wasn't compelled to be all mysteriouso about something like the father of mimaras child.  

Otoh, I've figured for years the kid was the child of kellhus. So this is just selection bias playing out for me and why I haven't brought it up.

[jurble]

1 hour ago, Triskan said:

Anyone have any theories on what is up with the Saccarees v. Aurang confrontation?  This was so strange.  Saccarees is later just hanging out with Proyas with no explanation.  It seems utterly inconceivable that Saccarees just destroyed Aurang off-screen, so it makes me wonder about bizarre possibilities like Aurang possessing Saccarees to infiltrate the Ordeal. 

Aurang just flies away.  Saccarees' attack doesn't penetrate his wards, and he doesn't give battle.