What are the chances Robb Stark's will gets noticed and *AFOC spoiler*

[brightflame princess]

8 hours ago, Kytheros said:

No, if Jon gets faced with Robb's will, he's not going to reject that. If Jon finds out that Rickon (or Bran, or Arya) is alive, Jon might try to apply the will as though Rickon (or Bran, or Arya) were Robb's child - ie, Rickon (or Bran, or Arya) is the heir, but someone (quite possibly Jon) is named Regent for them. If Jon is faced with the will and Sansa, he might reinstate her position in the succession.

 

 

There's a difference between Cersei ripping up King Robert's decree empowering Ned over her, especially when she knew Ned was opposed to her and knew that her children weren't Robert's, and the Northerners ignoring the will, that many of their lords witnessed, of the popular Stark King in the North naming someone (probably his brother) as his heir or Regent for his child, to pick up the torch of King in the North (and the Riverlands), with all the same training that he had, and a direwolf of his own.

My whole point is it's a letter written by a dead king... The situations are pretty similar actually. it can be destroyed easily. 

No one wins the game of thrones with a piece of paper and some words.. 

Remember pycelle was there when Robert wrote his letter.. how many of those northern Lord's switched sides, like the freys? It's totally possible that they all decide to ignore it, especially since the north is not what it used to be. In fact.. they kind of have ignored it. Nobody went to fetch jon, nobody sent him a letter letting him know. 

If he ever becomes king of the north, it will be because the northerners choose him and want to fight for him, NOT because of the words of a dead king. Westerosi history has plenty of examples of this kind of situation happening.

From the princess and the queen

Spoiler

King viserys chose rhaenyra as his heir. He made all the lords swear to protect her rights, but when he died only half of them did. They decided viserys male son was a better candidate. They went against the words of their dead king. 

 

[Unknownfinger]

On 7/10/2016 at 11:05 AM, brightflame princess said:

My whole point is it's a letter written by a dead king... The situations are pretty similar actually. it can be destroyed easily. 

No one wins the game of thrones with a piece of paper and some words.. 

Remember pycelle was there when Robert wrote his letter.. how many of those northern Lord's switched sides, like the freys? It's totally possible that they all decide to ignore it, especially since the north is not what it used to be. In fact.. they kind of have ignored it. Nobody went to fetch jon, nobody sent him a letter letting him know. 

If he ever becomes king of the north, it will be because the northerners choose him and want to fight for him, NOT because of the words of a dead king. Westerosi history has plenty of examples of this kind of situation happening.

From the princess and the queen

  Reveal hidden contents

King viserys chose rhaenyra as his heir. He made all the lords swear to protect her rights, but when he died only half of them did. They decided viserys male son was a better candidate. They went against the words of their dead king. 

 

Because she was a woman. Sansa will have the same problem hence her needing the Vale to take back Winterfell, however Jon will not. Jeyne Westerling is going to be the in the prologue of TWOW for a reason and it's to set up a power struggle for Rob's successor after the death of Jeyne and Robb's unborn heir and the north breaks away from the seven kingdoms again. Robb's will and Galbart Glover, the guy who holds said will, are going to play a large part in the political struggle of the north in book six. We could be looking at a three way struggle for WInterfell with Stannis having Rickon delivered to him by Davos, Jon, the Wildlings and a some of the northern houses forming an alliance based on Robb's will and Sansa with the as yet unbloodied knights of the vale all looking to claim the Stark ancestral home and titles. Stannis is going to have other problems and will probably fall before things really heat up leaving Sansa vs Jon. My guess is they both stay "Starks" and work something out resulting in Sansa taking down Littlefinger and Jon becoming KitN. 

[Curled Finger]

I like the will for many reasons, but mostly for what it does to the North when Jon is outed as a Targ prince.   Supposing of course, that all the information about Jon Snow becomes public and I see no reason it wouldn't.    Remember, the North will name their own ruler because at the heart of their politics they don't want to be part of the realm.   They want to be independent and left alone.   At this point they want to get rid of the Boltons and sooner rather than later they will face an even more frightening threat to their way of life.   And there is Stannis to figure into it all.  Still, I think Jon will find a way to unite the North for the right reasons.   It is Jon Snow, who doesn't seem as impressed as annoyed with titles.  Robb's will is important to Jon Snow's story as it relates to Northern rule and life.   On a larger canvass it may well have an impact on the prejudices and power of the entire realm.   

[Quyen Thuy Tran]

It would be funny that Robb's will might give Jon the controls of the North but once his true heritage it will be unpredictable if the North will follow him or not. However he has to survive his death before that lol

[Unknownfinger]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

I like the will for many reasons, but mostly for what it does to the North when Jon is outed as a Targ prince.   Supposing of course, that all the information about Jon Snow becomes public and I see no reason it wouldn't.    Remember, the North will name their own ruler because at the heart of their politics they don't want to be part of the realm.   They want to be independent and left alone.   At this point they want to get rid of the Boltons and sooner rather than later they will face an even more frightening threat to their way of life.   And there is Stannis to figure into it all.  Still, I think Jon will find a way to unite the North for the right reasons.   It is Jon Snow, who doesn't seem as impressed as annoyed with titles.  Robb's will is important to Jon Snow's story as it relates to Northern rule and life.   On a larger canvass it may well have an impact on the prejudices and power of the entire realm.   

 

21 minutes ago, Quyen Thuy Tran said:

It would be funny that Robb's will might give Jon the controls of the North but once his true heritage it will be unpredictable if the North will follow him or not. However he has to survive his death before that lol

Oh I think once a certain Targ shows up with three dragons, the unsullied and several Dothraki Khalasars I think the north will be more than happy to accept Jon's bloodlines

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

On July 3, 2016 at 2:28 PM, Unknownfinger said:

I think the will will have a large part to play as GRRM has confirmed that Jeyne Westerling will be in theprologue to TWOW. Why? Most likely we will see her and Edmure on their way to Casterly Rock when the BWB and UnCat arrive to murder Jeyne and save Edmure. Based on GRRM's low opinion of revenge they will probably accidentally get Edmure killed and the death of Jeyne and, unknown to UnCat, Robb's heir means that when Galbart Glover shows up with Robb's will naming Jon his heir in the invent he has no legitimate issue UnCat will face the horror of her actions disinheriting her living children and handing Winterfell to Jon Snow who she hates. It makes a lot of narrative and thematic sense. 

Damn

[brightflame princess]

2 hours ago, Unknownfinger said:

Because she was a woman. Sansa will have the same problem hence her needing the Vale to take back Winterfell, however Jon will not. Jeyne Westerling is going to be the in the prologue of TWOW for a reason and it's to set up a power struggle for Rob's successor after the death of Jeyne and Robb's unborn heir and the north breaks away from the seven kingdoms again. Robb's will and Galbart Glover, the guy who holds said will, are going to play a large part in the political struggle of the north in book six. We could be looking at a three way struggle for WInterfell with Stannis having Rickon delivered to him by Davos, Jon, the Wildlings and a some of the northern houses forming an alliance based on Robb's will and Sansa with the as yet unbloodied knights of the vale all looking to claim the Stark ancestral home and titles. Stannis is going to have other problems and will probably fall before things really heat up leaving Sansa vs Jon. My guess is they both stay "Starks" and work something out resulting in Sansa taking down Littlefinger and Jon becoming KitN. 

Jon will have the bastard thing against him. 

It doesn't matter that rhaenyra was a woman. The point is, many lords will support who they want regardless of the kings words.

I hope the will resurfaces, but I really doubt it will result in jon becoming the king in the north. If he does become king, the people will decide. And maybe the will will be used to convince some northerners who need convincing. It's not just gonna come to light and jon will instantly be crowned.

And I'm not so sure that you've pinpointed jeynes purpose in the prologue, in my personal opinion. Grey wind hated her and her family, and they were bannermen for the lannisters. I think the power struggle will involve jeyne and the newborn babe, I think her family has wanted power all along. They made jeyne woo Rob. I think jeyne will become a problem. This is all speculation of course.

 

Also, why do you think jeyne will die? Am I missing something, or is this your prediction?

[Unknownfinger]

Just now, brightflame princess said:

Jon will have the bastard thing against him. 

It doesn't matter that rhaenyra was a woman. The point is, many lords will support who they want regardless of the kings words.

I hope the will resurfaces, but I really doubt it will result in jon becoming the king in the north. If he does become king, the people will decide. And maybe the will will be used to convince some northerners who need convincing. It's not just gonna come to light and jon will instantly be crowned.

And I'm not so sure that you've pinpointed jeynes purpose in the prologue, in my personal opinion. Grey wind hated her and her family, and they were bannermen for the lannisters. I think the power struggle will involve jeyne and the newborn babe, I think her family has wanted power all along. They made jeyne woo Rob. I think jeyne will become a problem. This is all speculation of course.

 

Also, why do you think jeyne will die? Am I missing something, or is this your prediction?

I think Jane will die as it fits into the thematic narrative of LSH. We know the BwB are in the Riverlands and LSH is close by. We also have been told that Jeyne and Edmure will be in the same caravan heading to Casterly Rock and I think that's way to big a target for LSH and the BwB to pass up. LSH will attempt to rescue her brother, which I think will fail, as well as kill Jeyne for the part she played in Robb's death whether real or imagined. LSH won't realize until after Jeyne is dead that Jeyne was pregnant with Robb's child and this will help set off a chain of events that leads to Jon being crowned KitN. This will devastate LSH and I think it's shortly after this that Arya gives LSH "the gift" and sets her free of her torment. The moral of this story is Revenge is Bad Kids!. If one looks at where all the players on the board are and at Cat Stark's narrative both before and after the Fray's and Lannister's seemed to have taken everything from her and all the pieces fit I feel.

It's a true tragedy in that you can watch the dominoes fall going all the way back to when Ned felt he had no choice but to tell his wife a lie about not being honorable enough to resist an affair during the war but too honorable not to force Cat to raise another women's child, and let's not forgot that with their hereditary system a threat to Cat's children becoming lords of Winterfell, under their roof which resulted in her harsh but understandable hatred for Jon. For Act III in this story to happen Jeyne has to die at LSH hands and I think that is exactly what happens right at the start of the TWOW followed by the Battle of Ice and the Battle of Fire and then the book ends with the Wall coming down. It's going to be a hell of a ride. 

[Quyen Thuy Tran]

Lol I am not the fan of Jon become King but it will be sweet that LHS has to watch the horror that Jon will be king over her kids. Lollll

[Lord Rahvin]

I thought Lady Mormont & Glover had the will.

I do remember them presumably carrying "fake papers"? But I assumed those fake papers were orders & troop movements...with the intent to confuse the enemy - having nothing to do with the will.

[brightflame princess]

15 hours ago, Unknownfinger said:

I think Jane will die as it fits into the thematic narrative of LSH. We know the BwB are in the Riverlands and LSH is close by. We also have been told that Jeyne and Edmure will be in the same caravan heading to Casterly Rock and I think that's way to big a target for LSH and the BwB to pass up. LSH will attempt to rescue her brother, which I think will fail, as well as kill Jeyne for the part she played in Robb's death whether real or imagined. LSH won't realize until after Jeyne is dead that Jeyne was pregnant with Robb's child and this will help set off a chain of events that leads to Jon being crowned KitN. This will devastate LSH and I think it's shortly after this that Arya gives LSH "the gift" and sets her free of her torment. The moral of this story is Revenge is Bad Kids!. If one looks at where all the players on the board are and at Cat Stark's narrative both before and after the Fray's and Lannister's seemed to have taken everything from her and all the pieces fit I feel.

It's a true tragedy in that you can watch the dominoes fall going all the way back to when Ned felt he had no choice but to tell his wife a lie about not being honorable enough to resist an affair during the war but too honorable not to force Cat to raise another women's child, and let's not forgot that with their hereditary system a threat to Cat's children becoming lords of Winterfell, under their roof which resulted in her harsh but understandable hatred for Jon. For Act III in this story to happen Jeyne has to die at LSH hands and I think that is exactly what happens right at the start of the TWOW followed by the Battle of Ice and the Battle of Fire and then the book ends with the Wall coming down. It's going to be a hell of a ride. 

If that happens, then you are a fantastic detective. Can't wait to see how it turns out.

[Nittanian]

15 hours ago, Lord Rahvin said:

I thought Lady Mormont & Glover had the will.

I do remember them presumably carrying "fake papers"? But I assumed those fake papers were orders & troop movements...with the intent to confuse the enemy - having nothing to do with the will.

ASOS Catelyn V

Quote

"Go upriver flying my banner. The crannogmen will find you. I want two ships to double the chances of my message reaching Howland Reed. Lady Maege shall go on one, Galbart on the second." He turned to the two he'd named. "You'll carry letters for those lords of mine who remain in the north, but all the commands within will be false, in case you have the misfortune to be taken. If that happens, you must tell them that you were sailing for the north. Back to Bear Island, or for the Stony Shore."

Robb has the bannermen witness his will at the end of the chapter. Maege or Galbart having the will is conjecture, which I find doubtful based on Robb's concern for them being captured.

[Clegane'sPup]

On 7/2/2016 at 6:33 AM, jontargaryan said:

Jon Snow becomes his heir as King in the North?

 

 

Do you think that's a possibility?

What does Robb’s will have to do with anything concerning the power structure of Westeros? Big whoop, Robb was declared King in the North by his bannermen. They even made him a crown. The seat of power in Westeros is the Iron Throne which is located in Kings Landing. What is the thing that grubbers covet? The Iron Throne.

Let us say that Robb’s will named/passed on the right of ownership of WF to Jon. What’s the worst that could happen? The north succeeds from the Seven Kingdoms. No one south of the Neck has any interest what is happening up north. Nor are they interested in wildlings or Others or wights or the Wall.

How does Robb’s will, if he passed possession of WF to Jon affect or effect anything that is transpiring in the other six kingdoms. There are seven kingdoms united and pledged to the Iron Throne. The north being one of them.

LC Snow is ummm, I dunna know, dead or alive, gonna be resurrected, a traitor of the NW, the son of Rhe Rhe & Lyanna, etc, etc.  How does this Robb’s will thang fit into any of the numerous theories?

[Nevets]

Why do so many people seem to think that the BwB and LSH are going to successfully rescue Jeyne and Edmure and then execute Jeyne?  I see neither of these events happening.

There is a 400 man escort.  That is a lot of men.  Probably more armed men than the BwB can rustle up on short notice.  Remember, the men from Riverrun had to give up their weapons.  They will be in the Westlands within a week.  I can't imagine being able to put together a successful rescue in that time.  If an attempt is made, it will be a blodbath, with the BwB taking the brunt.

Jeyne's mother's role is not widely known.  The only public acknowledgement of the Westerlings is Rolph Spicer being Lord of Castermere, and he wasn't trusted anyway.  Blackfish seemed worried about the Lannisters harming Jeyne, suggesting that he, at least, still thinks she was loyal to Robb.  Jaime also thinks she is still a threat to the Lannisters.

I still think that Jeyne's appearance in the Prologue will be her arrival at Casterly Rock, possibly told from the POV of the maester.  We could get an update on events in KL and the Riverands at the same time.

[Curled Finger]

4 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

What does Robb’s will have to do with anything concerning the power structure of Westeros? Big whoop, Robb was declared King in the North by his bannermen. They even made him a crown. The seat of power in Westeros is the Iron Throne which is located in Kings Landing. What is the thing that grubbers covet? The Iron Throne.

Let us say that Robb’s will named/passed on the right of ownership of WF to Jon. What’s the worst that could happen? The north succeeds from the Seven Kingdoms. No one south of the Neck has any interest what is happening up north. Nor are they interested in wildlings or Others or wights or the Wall.

How does Robb’s will, if he passed possession of WF to Jon affect or effect anything that is transpiring in the other six kingdoms. There are seven kingdoms united and pledged to the Iron Throne. The north being one of them.

LC Snow is ummm, I dunna know, dead or alive, gonna be resurrected, a traitor of the NW, the son of Rhe Rhe & Lyanna, etc, etc.  How does this Robb’s will thang fit into any of the numerous theories?

All good points as usual, Pup.   Concerning power structures Winterfell has been the seat of power in the North and Ramsay has designs on it, though I believe he's got his eye on the Dreadfort as the bigger prize.  This small point here is truly where the North could oust the Boltons.   Robb as King in the North is telling of the North's wish to be independent.   I think northern independence is what ultimately landed Robb his crown, not the beheading of the Warden of the North.   The realm overall is broken if the North secedes from the united Realm in terms of income and military support.  I've recently reread TWOIAF chapters on The North.   These people would be desirable supplicants to any ruler in their fierce loyalty alone, not to mention the North's willingness to engage in matters of state (I'm thinking specifically of the Stark's support of Rhaenyra's claim during the Dance of Dragons).  Mostly I imagine the loss of income would be substantial to the crown.  Then there is that uncomfortable and awkward North and South Westeros thing to deal with.    Secession of the North would create enormous problems for the crown.   Gads, what if some Northern clan wanted to invade and conquer the Fingers?   

I think Robb's will is important for the entire story of the people of the North.   There was unity between The North and Riverlands during Robert's Rebellion just as there was unity between them during Robb's short rebellion.  Robb was met with unimaginable betrayal at the Red Wedding.    But I think there is still that unity between the lands.    The direwolf was still flying over Raventree Hall as well as over Riverrun.   It wasn't just the relationship between the Starks and Tullys, it was a unity between the 2 lands in abject rebellion against the Iron Throne.    The Riverlands don't necessarily want independence, but it's obvious they want a ruler they can believe in.    I imagine it isn't a simple case of just the North seceding.   

On a personal note, I like what Robb's will could do for Jon in preparation for the rug to be completely pulled out from under him.    This young bastard left and led.   This young bastard can potentially have his vows forgiven in order to rally the north (maybe the Riverlands) against the real threat, the Others.   I wouldn't be miserable if Jon got a break in being legitimized and knowing that the "brother" he envied loved him that much.   I'll give you that's it's all very round about and complicated, but it is the layers GRRM frosts that cake with that makes it soooooooo good! 

[Clegane'sPup]

14 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

All good points as usual, Pup.   Concerning power structures Winterfell has been the seat of power in the North and Ramsay has designs on it, though I believe he's got his eye on the Dreadfort as the bigger prize.  This small point here is truly where the North could oust the Boltons.   Robb as King in the North is telling of the North's wish to be independent.   I think northern independence is what ultimately landed Robb his crown, not the beheading of the Warden of the North.   The realm overall is broken if the North secedes from the united Realm in terms of income and military support.  I've recently reread TWOIAF chapters on The North.   These people would be desirable supplicants to any ruler in their fierce loyalty alone, not to mention the North's willingness to engage in matters of state (I'm thinking specifically of the Stark's support of Rhaenyra's claim during the Dance of Dragons).  Mostly I imagine the loss of income would be substantial to the crown.  Then there is that uncomfortable and awkward North and South Westeros thing to deal with.    Secession of the North would create enormous problems for the crown.   Gads, what if some Northern clan wanted to invade and conquer the Fingers?   

I think Robb's will is important for the entire story of the people of the North.   There was unity between The North and Riverlands during Robert's Rebellion just as there was unity between them during Robb's short rebellion.  Robb was met with unimaginable betrayal at the Red Wedding.    But I think there is still that unity between the lands.    The direwolf was still flying over Raventree Hall as well as over Riverrun.   It wasn't just the relationship between the Starks and Tullys, it was a unity between the 2 lands in abject rebellion against the Iron Throne.    The Riverlands don't necessarily want independence, but it's obvious they want a ruler they can believe in.    I imagine it isn't a simple case of just the North seceding.   

On a personal note, I like what Robb's will could do for Jon in preparation for the rug to be completely pulled out from under him.    This young bastard left and led.   This young bastard can potentially have his vows forgiven in order to rally the north (maybe the Riverlands) against the real threat, the Others.   I wouldn't be miserable if Jon got a break in being legitimized and knowing that the "brother" he envied loved him that much.   I'll give you that's it's all very round about and complicated, but it is the layers GRRM frosts that cake with that makes it soooooooo good! 

Interesting ideas. Thanks for the feedback. I need to use that wonderful search engine to check my thoughts, but I'll be back.

 

[Clegane'sPup]

He is set on this. Catelyn knew how stubborn her son could be. "A bastard cannot inherit."

"Not unless he's legitimized by a royal decree," said Robb. "There is more precedent for that than for releasing a Sworn Brother from his oath."SoS Cat V

What does that say? My take on it is Robb believes that since his bannermen named him King of the North and the River Lords declared him King of the Trident he has the power to declare Jon the legitimate son of Eddard Stark. BUT getting a Sworn Brother released from his vows is a bit trisky.

Back in CoK Tyrion II Varys gave Tyrion little riddle to solve to which Varys eventually says: Varys smiled. "Here, then. Power resides where men believe it resides. No more and no less."

I happen to believe that the power of the Seven Kingdoms resides at Kings Landing by whoever is in control of the Iron Throne.

The Iron Throne sitter, although a boy, signed a decree that made Roose the Warden of the North and legitimized Ramsey as Roose’s natural born son.

Although the northmen may be unhappy about that they throw their towels in with Bolton. Power resides where men believe it resides, as Varys told Tyrion.

Stannis also believes he can legitimize Jon and restore WF to Jon. Stannis in my opinion has more clout than Robb had. BUT remember the people of Westeros didn’t buy into Stannis’ letters that Robert’s children were bastard born of incest between Jaime & Cersei.

The seat of Westeros power is KL and the Iron Throne. Dany wants it, one of dem Greyjoy’s wants it and this Ageon kid wants it.

If Robb named Jon heir to WF, Jon is still a bastard & Jon is still a member of the NW. How can that reconciled? King Robb is dead. Roose is Warden of the North.

I do believe that the Bolton’s ain’t gonna hold WF for long. Although I don’t know how the scenario is going to play out I do have my speculations.

The only way Jon gets WF is if he is legitimized by the person sitting on the Iron Throne as Eddard’s true born son. If Jon gets legitimized as Eddard’s true born son, what happens to R+L=J? Plus, how does Jon get out of his NW vows?

Then again maybe the whole infrastructure of Westeros will crumble and burn once Dany arrives and nothing will matter.

BTW this post is not specific to you @Curled Finger, any person can pipe up and add their thoughts.

[Curled Finger]

Specific or not, it's good to see you working your position out.   And it all makes perfect sense, so I have no argument with your stance, @Clegane'sPup.   What I offer is beyond your stance.   I don't think much in the story is happenstance.   And I do think a whole lot of this story is about Jon Snow.  Forever rereading, discussing and rereading some more, I only recently changed my position on Robb's will from nearly precisely your vantage point.   Jon Snow has bigger geese to cook--the will has no impact on anything really.   Still the will will matter to the group of players in Jon's immediate vicinity, the NW and Northern Lords.   It is Rickard Karstark and Greatjon Umber who really get the ball rolling with Robb.  As you know neither are particularly wealthy houses.   They are discussing what to do with their hostage, Jamie Lannister and the deaths of Ned and many others.   

"MY LORDS!" he shouted, his voice booming off the rafters. "Here is what I say to these two kings!" He spat. "Renly Baratheon is nothing to me, nor Stannis neither. Why should they rule over me and mine, from some flowery seat in Highgarden or Dorne? What do they know of the Wall or the wolfswood or the barrows of the First Men? Even their gods are wrong. The Others take the Lannisters too, I've had a bellyful of them." He reached back over his shoulder and drew his immense two-handed greatsword. "Why shouldn't we rule ourselves again? It was the dragons we married, and the dragons are all dead!" He pointed at Robb with the blade. "There sits the only king I mean to bow my knee to, m'lords," he thundered. "The King in the North!"   AGOT Catelyn 11

This passage (among others) leads me to believe the North really does want its autonomy and independence from the choice in rulers laid before them.   And let's not forget that Riverlands Lords were in attendance at this time and that they too, chose to follow Robb instead of Renly, Stannis or Joffrey.   Both regions are sick of Baratheons and Lannisters.  But they've (the 7 Kingdoms) also only become united in the last 300 years, since the Targs conquered.   They were OK with a foreigner ruling over them, but they seem to be picking right back up where they were before the Targ peace came, fighting with everyone.   1st Men against Andal (and other 1st Men for that matter).  Westeros history is rife with the blood of 1st Men and Andals spilling on everyone's grass regionally.    Dorne, The Vale and The North seem to have been the only regions that had fallen under an established united ruler.  It makes historical sense that these regions would reject the Stormlands or Westerlands ruling over them.    Perhaps the North and Riverlands will be accepting of Dany when she brings her dragons to their areas. 

With Robb dead, Boltons controlling the North and the Freys/Lannisters set to control the Riverlands it is not hard to see any of the local lords in both places falling in behind anyone who will restore their peace and governance.  (Though the Tullys may not be the best option for RL rule, there are other worthy houses who could gain a great deal more from a Northern alliance than any alliance with the Lannisters or Freys.)   Jon's legitimacy and crowning only furthers their cause politically.   At this point I expect Robb's will to be something of a holy grail for these regions.  They don't want Lannisters or Baratheons or Freys and will take any savior I would imagine.   So, even though your arguments are strong Pup, don't underestimate what the smaller forces in rebellion are completely capable of.    Power resides where men believe it does.     

[Clegane'sPup]

on your post Curled Finger.

On 7/15/2016 at 7:04 PM, Curled Finger said:

"MY LORDS!" he shouted, his voice booming off the rafters. "Here is what I say to these two kings!" He spat. "Renly Baratheon is nothing to me, nor Stannis neither. Why should they rule over me and mine, from some flowery seat in Highgarden or Dorne? What do they know of the Wall or the wolfswood or the barrows of the First Men? Even their gods are wrong. The Others take the Lannisters too, I've had a bellyful of them." He reached back over his shoulder and drew his immense two-handed greatsword. "Why shouldn't we rule ourselves again? It was the dragons we married, and the dragons are all dead!" He pointed at Robb with the blade. "There sits the only king I mean to bow my knee to, m'lords," he thundered. "The King in the North!"   AGOT Catelyn 11

The quote you provided especially the statements you highlighted really got my attention. I'm not as well versed in back and forth discussion as some of the other more knowledgeable posters are. Maybe someone else will pick up the discussion.

That "It was the dragons we married, and the dragons are all dead" line that for some reason kinda me.

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said:

on your post Curled Finger.

The quote you provided especially the statements you highlighted really got my attention. I'm not as well versed in back and forth discussion as some of the other more knowledgeable posters are. Maybe someone else will pick up the discussion.

That "It was the dragons we married, and the dragons are all dead" line that for some reason kinda me.

That's a high compliment coming from you, Pup.   

That bit about the dragons is unsettling to me.   I understand Torrhen's stance on bending the knee to Aegon.   Dragons would be an enormous motivator, but they have been dead for a long time.   Maybe it was because the Starks were so tied to Robert Baratheon that caused them to keep their peace with a new dragonless regime?   But the dragons and the Starks are essentially gone for the North, why shouldn't they want their independence?