If Jon becomes King , who will be his Queen ?

[The Fattest Leech]

3 hours ago, Ser Creighton said:

Why would you be comfortable at this point? The two have never met, there are no interactions just speculation and that can take many shapes. It's a blind date at this point and those don't usually start off comfortably. I can't see Dany being comfortable with Jon at this point. I mean who wants to date a bloody mess who just wants to lie there in the snow? And she is bald with burnt hands, has not had a shower in weeks, and is a bloody mess herself, also sitting in front of a half burnt horse eating it. Magical moment.

I did not say I would be uncomfortable with it. What I said was, "It would still make for a weird match. I can't see either one being comfortable with each other at this point," meaning they would not be comfortable with each other.

And why are you bringing up their looks? That is rather shallow of you to say so. While Dany was not physically attracted to Quent because he was more like the "mud" Barristan describes, but she is not totally shallow. More so for Jon. Ygritte was not conventionally pretty, but he found the beauty in her. Even down to the scraggly hair that he was comfortable with that Ned and Arya are both described as having. George even specified this is Jon's comfort level with other people's looks.

Quote

In all seriousness, neither character is finished being developed at this point we don't know exactly what they will be like or what experiences they may share in the future. Hell Jon does not even know who he is yet. It's like saying Arya is no one right now and that is the way it will always be from now on, when that is probably unlikely. Or that the relationship between Sansa and Littlefinger will not change, or Sansa will not change. Some seem to think she has changed a lot in the last couple of books and that she has several new relationships around her.

Almost correct. The two characters are at their apex for learning and soon into the next book will have to start acting and demonstrating what they have learned so far. There are only two books left and there isn't time to have repeated "blind-man" learning sessions and to have two major battles in Winds, as George said, and have Dany come to Westeros, and have Jon take control (in some way) of the north and the Others.

Yes. By the mid to end of Dance Jon says he is more like Ghost = the old gods and he says he is more like a wildling (the first men) and he acknowledges he is a warg. That is why he called out to Ghost when he was stabbed. Jon also acts on what his intuition tells him is the right thing to do by saving the wildlings. He is getting a pretty good idea of himself by now. I have quoted all of these references before.

Quote

Personally I look at the symbolism, story and direction but do not really imagine the interactions of any of the characters in the future, just given a general feel where the story is going. The interactions that's Martins Job, he has been pretty good at it so far. Personally looking forward to a lot of people meeting and hopefully some reunions. I want to see different interactions, I want to see Tyrion meet Dany or Sam, or reunite with Jon, or run into Arya. I want to see that with all the characters, it's always been better to me when the POV's are crossing paths, the isolation kind of sucks. Everybody off with their Jedi training.

Remember you just said this because...

Quote

I look forward to all the future interactions. I have already seen Jon and Val, no offense was not impressed. Was not impressed with Daario either. Both essentially serve the same purpose as literary devices. I mean you ever wonder why he named her Val. Cause that's such a Wildling name? What are they from southern Cali? I mean come on a blond haired blue eyed princess named Val, what is it short for Valyria? Or why Daario is compared to a Targaryen and is symbolized by a crow. It's not that complex of a juxtaposition, most of them are not.

apparently you don't. Or, not to any deeper meaning than what the basic words say on the page. I am sure you know that GRRM has pulled heavily from Norse mythology for the wall/northern storyline, right? Well, if you did know that then you would see the symbolism in Val and Dalla's name. Hell, even Tormund and Morna. But no, you are snarf-snarfing at your own joke because you are so witty, right? Even Shieldhall has heavy Norse symbolism that directly connects Val to Jon.

Val and Dalla's name origin
Val, Dalla, Tormund and Morna's character premise
How Val links in with historical figures within the world

I have a few feelings about Daario, but this isn't the place for them. If you want to look for the symbolism in Daario's name, you could say Storm-Crow, as in servant/messanger of the storm... stormborn. Again. Another time and place.

Quote

A lot of people also mention time, they need a lot of time to get to know each other. Alys Karstark new him for like two chapters and for awhile that was a popular pairing. Hell she broke her husband in, and took two paragraphs and everyone was okay with that too.

It was for a while just as Wylla Manderly always pops up on the list of potentials. But Jon married Alys off, so technically she is not free to wed anymore. Go figure

Another reason for that is because it takes more than just "spunk" for a wifely pairing to Jon to work in the long run. There is a lot more going on in this world than just putting Jon in to bed with someone. Politics, land division, the OTHERS. It has to make literary sense in the way this world was set up by George. For instance, George has drilled it in to our heads that the old gods think incest is an abomination. He uses a few different POV characters to demonstrate and actually lists it as the rules in the books. So, it would not make sense if, say, oh, Sansa were to marry Rickon because it goes against their upbringing and religion and has shown to be a "bad" thing in this world.

Quote

Martin can do interactions just fine, he also probably has a pretty idea of what he wants to see and the characters will interact given that they live in his brain and thus have known each other for decades.

Yup. No debate here. Even still, George himself has said repeatedly that over the decades, the story has changed because it is character driven, not plot driven. Sorry, but, I have to listen to the actual author as word in this case. If I had my way with the story then a few things wouldn't have happened so far... or not at all. Ned, Jory, Old Nan... ... but I kept on reading (see below)

Quote

I think people make to much out of these things because they don't know the future and they let their own ideas shape them rather than what Martin will actually write. Then they get upset when the story does not go the direction they want, and they throw their books into the sun? Which you know, burning books is just bad. When all Martin is doing is writing his story. "What? Sansa does not get a flying chariot pulled by winged unicorns? What is this hack thinking? SOB, that's it, you books, I blame you and you are going to the sun."  

 

YES! There is that clever humor that is as dry as burnt toast  It is good to see that among all of your symbolism hunting, you have not forgotten about embellishment for humors' sake. Because I am sure that you know the difference between literal and being colorful in casual fandom conversation?

I think anyone who is part of the deeper fandom of this series knows that things don't always work out the way they thought, and that is ok, because you can always just chuck your books into the sun of it doesn't work out for you.

[Ser Creighton]

5 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I did not say I would be uncomfortable with it. What I said was, "It would still make for a weird match. I can't see either one being comfortable with each other at this point," meaning they would not be comfortable with each other.

And why are you bringing up their looks? That is rather shallow of you to say so. While Dany was not physically attracted to Quent because he was more like the "mud" Barristan describes, but she is not totally shallow. More so for Jon. Ygritte was not conventionally pretty, but he found the beauty in her. Even down to the scraggly hair that he was comfortable with that Ned and Arya are both described as having. George even specified this is Jon's comfort level with other people's looks.

Almost correct. The two characters are at their apex for learning and soon into the next book will have to start acting and demonstrating what they have learned so far. There are only two books left and there isn't time to have repeated "blind-man" learning sessions and to have two major battles in Winds, as George said, and have Dany come to Westeros, and have Jon take control (in some way) of the north and the Others.

Yes. By the mid to end of Dance Jon says he is more like Ghost = the old gods and he says he is more like a wildling (the first men) and he acknowledges he is a warg. That is why he called out to Ghost when he was stabbed. Jon also acts on what his intuition tells him is the right thing to do by saving the wildlings. He is getting a pretty good idea of himself by now. I have quoted all of these references before.

Remember you just said this because...

apparently you don't. Or, not to any deeper meaning than what the basic words say on the page. I am sure you know that GRRM has pulled heavily from Norse mythology for the wall/northern storyline, right? Well, if you did know that then you would see the symbolism in Val and Dalla's name. Hell, even Tormund and Morna. But no, you are snarf-snarfing at your own joke because you are so witty, right? Even Shieldhall has heavy Norse symbolism that directly connects Val to Jon.

Val and Dalla's name origin
Val, Dalla, Tormund and Morna's character premise
How Val links in with historical figures within the world

I have a few feelings about Daario, but this isn't the place for them. If you want to look for the symbolism in Daario's name, you could say Storm-Crow, as in servant/messanger of the storm... stormborn. Again. Another time and place.

It was for a while just as Wylla Manderly always pops up on the list of potentials. But Jon married Alys off, so technically she is not free to wed anymore. Go figure

Another reason for that is because it takes more than just "spunk" for a wifely pairing to Jon to work in the long run. There is a lot more going on in this world than just putting Jon in to bed with someone. Politics, land division, the OTHERS. It has to make literary sense in the way this world was set up by George. For instance, George has drilled it in to our heads that the old gods think incest is an abomination. He uses a few different POV characters to demonstrate and actually lists it as the rules in the books. So, it would not make sense if, say, oh, Sansa were to marry Rickon because it goes against their upbringing and religion and has shown to be a "bad" thing in this world.

Yup. No debate here. Even still, George himself has said repeatedly that over the decades, the story has changed because it is character driven, not plot driven. Sorry, but, I have to listen to the actual author as word in this case. If I had my way with the story then a few things wouldn't have happened so far... or not at all. Ned, Jory, Old Nan... ... but I kept on reading (see below)

YES! There is that clever humor that is as dry as burnt toast  It is good to see that among all of your symbolism hunting, you have not forgotten about embellishment for humors' sake. Because I am sure that you know the difference between literal and being colorful in casual fandom conversation?

I think anyone who is part of the deeper fandom of this series knows that things don't always work out the way they thought, and that is ok, because you can always just chuck your books into the sun of it doesn't work out for you.

You were uncomfortable to Dany and Jon being uncomfortable is just a transition, I put you in their shoes so to speak. Blind, date probably would not be comfortable as at the last moment we saw them they were both a mess. Jon being a bloody mess is not a description of his looks, he was stabbed and lying in the snow. Neither one of them are in a good place right now, like in terms of health, Get it? It's kind of like a question, have ever been uncomfortable when first meeting someone, can you imagine these two right now? It's a play on their current situations. Relating a person to a character, you know theory of mind? It was not about physical attraction it was about bad situations. Like situational comedy? You know being stabbed. A bloody mess lying in the snow, cause you know stabbed, and read Dany's last chapter more going on then her hair, you know like probably needs a doctor, or could use one. It's a specific moment thing, putting them together at that moment in a date setting. 

Notice how "In all seriousness" follows that paragraph, cause you know not being serious. That is why there is a qualifier.

Almost correct? No they are not done being developed and your own post indicates that. Sure they will apply what they learned, they pretty much do that in every book as they develop. Generally an author will not stop developing a character till the story is over. There is always something and he did not say he was going to stop developing them. Applying what they are learning is one thing, developing is another. As for plot vs. character development, well you know it's not one or the other right? He does both, he does a lot of things. That's why it's a story.

Some of the events you seem to be interpreting like Jon taking control of the Others. I don't recall Martin saying that. I mean it could happen, but that is your own supposition, or maybe you feel it is fact. I have gone down that road before. For me I am more uncertain about it, but I did once include the idea in a theory. Years ago.

I don't look at symbolism? Really? How would you know from one post? Well the Norse mythology is interesting and I took part in several of those debates over my time here. I don't put an over emphasis on it. You can do the same thing with wolves and Bran's name, trees? But you can also get into other mythology as well, I mean he picks and chooses what he likes and blends them. He also has his own mythology which he has created in world.

You know name meaning does not mean a character impresses me and yeah, I have already seen the Daario stuff, been here a long time, plenty of theories out there. I was not really snarking, just having some fun with the idea of the two meeting at our last views of them. And I don't discount the symbolism of a characters name. You can get into the symbolism of the series, but I can hardly include that in one post. Oh look it's Leo Tyrell and the Sphinx and the Golden bow, and Apples, gosh is there some Greek symbolism going here? Lucifer means Lightbringer but it's also associated with Artemis who brought fourth Apollo. Then you have the huntress and her Greyhounds. Goodness a white Bull. Horned God mythology, mythology of the 3 aspects, Dawn goddess, John Barley corn, Arthurian legend, the Ulster Cycle, Valknut, the name Bran in Welsh mythology, and the Volsunga saga, Barnstokkr, you can also get into Indian Mythology, and Native American mythology like Skin Walkers, and of course history itself, it goes on and on. You can get into the mythology he borrows from other fantasy writers as well, it's not just historical mythology. And then there are different types of symbolism, a simile, a metaphor, personifications. Now I am not going to do an in depth break down on what I listed which is not even a full list which is ever expanding, because you know it would take forever. 

You can explore what is obscure and the obvious, now I was talking about something that is obvious, but yes of course you can get into the more obscure aspects of symbolism. I encourage it, but I am not going to write a thesis on the symbolism of the series in one post. On a thread really not about that. That's why I only vaguely touched on it. There are reasons we do what we do.

Understand it's fine if I am not impressed with Val, or Daario, or Hot Pie for that matter. That is just personal preference, I did not say people should not like a character because of that. Or that you should not appreciate the character. It's a light thread I am going to give light answers. I don't really care much about Gendry either. I understand the bull symbolism, the bull mask and all that. Don't really care that much about the character, don't hate him, just not a focus for me. 

I personally would like to here your feelings on Daario, you can always post them I do feel that while the crow symbolism being tied to messengers is very accurate, you can also say tied to death and souls. You can say his name means rich as well. You can look at the parallels of lets say Euron, Young Griff, Jon and Darrio. You know it is not an accident that Daario has blue hair, Blue eyes, and is associated with gold, and sell swords. Young Griff, blue hair, blue eyes, associated with gold and sell swords. Both Tyrion and Dany make similar comments about their eyes. You can also see where Dany kind of wished he was Targaryen and maybe JonCon has the same feelings about FAegon.

 Again it's not about your personal belief about Val you are more than entitled to them, I personally do not find her interesting or that important. Yes I have looked more in depth at Val, it's just this is not that thread, it's a light thread I glanced over it, I have fun with it. Sure I teased you a bit, about throwing a book into the sun. Because it is not the books fault, it's Martin's fault, you throw Martin into the sun.

You know even with all the symbolism and mythology, I tend find that the series itself generally comes back to certain cores, some real literary basics. While I have had many in depth conversations on symbolism, and mythology, colors, juxtaposition and the parallels and everything else under the sun, and those conversations probably happened with other posters before me, and before this board. But one light post by my does not mean I have not gone down those roads many times before. Heck one day I might be writing about Terry and Puddles the Others Brothers and their shenanigans (It's a parody I write) or I might be discussing the meaning of juxtaposed characters and the symbolism with in it.

I does not effect me if you like Val and your views on her, I just don't really agree that she matters all that much. It's like comparing the Wildlings the Free Folk, and the Dany's free men, one are forced to bend the knee the other do so willingly. You can talk about it but it's probably not going to blow my mind. The juxtaposed symbolism of the Dothraki and the Others is more interesting to me. Just personal preference.

Of course what do I know? Sure I wrote sun and moon before the world book was ever published and sure it's a perfect example of maiden and lion even though it came out first, but that was probably just luck. Not bragging about theories at all, that gained huge in cannon support post theory from things like the world book, the blacks and the greens and the show. Okay yes some call me the god father of parallels and symbolism, and yes I have made predictions that have come true, but you can assume that last post was the entirety of what I have written and what I know. Not bragging, I just totally rule and kick ass, and don't have a giant ego at all, just consider me this forums gift to the world, no the universe. Don't worry I rolled my eyes for you, I have to have some goofing around in a post, I can't be to serious for too long. 

Honestly though if you find time I would like to see your Daario stuff, I am always curious to see what people come up with, I really enjoy different takes on characters, you never know when you will find something knew. Like when LML started doing some of his Horned lord stuff it was very interesting. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[The Fattest Leech]

@Ser Creighton. We need our own thread. 

[Kairi]

22 hours ago, Scorpion92 said:

-snipped-

I can go further, but do not want to derail thread further. The further discussion would include tidbits about Ashara Dayne and her resemblance to Dany (Barristan's mention), rumors of her death and her stillborn daughter, the whole "Dragonstone birth" of Dany, Martells and their connection to Daynes, several references to wolves in Dany's chapters, etc. It is a very long essay, and that is why I wanted to start a new thread. I hope I gave you some food for thought.

 

 

Thank you. I look forward to your post.  I will check out the theories suggested, but while I like the idea of the repercussions of your theory being true, I am not completely sold on it yet.  Intrigued, but not convinced. 

16 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Actually is quite possible that Ashara's baby daddy is Ned and that she had an alive daughter. However the daughter isn't Dany.

 

Ok, i'll bite.  Who do you think it is?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

21 hours ago, Kairi said:

Ok, i'll bite.  Who do you think it is?

Her *sister* Allyria. Ashara is one of Ned's broken promises.

[Kairi]

Thanks. I will look at it later.

[AEJON TARGARYEN]

Sansa