War Amongst The Starks

[Future Null Infinity]

14 minutes ago, tormond said:

he will be the referee.

a mud fight between them would be cool to watch

[permaximum]

8 hours ago, Bear Claw said:

There is shocking and there there are things that just don't make sense. She has to have a motivation to betray Jon. She didn't tell him about the Vale Army, but she didn't use it against him either. If she was going to betray him, she should have moved quickly after the battle to get rid of him. She should not have warned him at the war council. When she is in the Godswood, she says she was stupid for only thinking about what she wanted not about what she had. There were lots of opportunities for the writers to clue us into an upcoming betrayal. I think the season trailer had a line from her that said something like all she thinks about is what was taken from her. I never heard that line in the show. If she had said that in the Godswood then I could see an upcoming betrayal. As things stand, I don't see it. 

Here's a very interesting thing on this topic I found. Sophie Turner along with other actresses gave an interview in the season 6 stage some time ago. All other actresses' costumes were what they exactly put on in the final episode of this season except for hers. She wore that black costume with feathers Sansa made with that big black necklace for Littlefinger in the Vale back in the season 4.

I thought I simply missed Sansa's line from the trailer and it was spoken in this season at some episode. Now as you pointed out, I'm pretty sure there was supposed the be a scene with Sansa and LF after the KITN scene. I guess that scene was postponed to the first episode of season 7. She definetely talks about the North as what was taken from her and to get what she wants she starts with playing into LF's feelings for her. Wearing that black dress again is probably a start.

And considering George RR Martin's leaked letter of which revealed Sansa was supposed to eventually betray Jon, Bran and Arya and choose Joffrey over them, I believe Martin replaced Joffrey with Littlefinger and gave Sansa a longer and more important storyline than what he planned at the beginning.

At this point, I'm 100% sure Sansa will do anything to get the North back and she will choose LF over Jon because Sansa feels she is the one that was betrayed by Jon and other Northern houses.

 

[Bear Claw]

50 minutes ago, permaximum said:

Here's a very interesting thing on this topic I found. Sophie Turner along with other actresses gave an interview in the season 6 stage some time ago. All other actresses' costumes were what they exactly put on in the final episode of this season except for hers. She wore that black costume with feathers Sansa made with that big black necklace for Littlefinger in the Vale back in the season 4.

I thought I simply missed Sansa's line from the trailer and it was spoken in this season at some episode. Now as you pointed out, I'm pretty sure there was supposed the be a scene with Sansa and LF after the KITN scene. I guess that scene was postponed to the first episode of season 7. She definetely talks about the North as what was taken from her and to get what she wants she starts with playing into LF's feelings for her. Wearing that black dress again is probably a start.

And considering George RR Martin's leaked letter of which revealed Sansa was supposed to eventually betray Jon, Bran and Arya and choose Joffrey over them, I believe Martin replaced Joffrey with Littlefinger and gave Sansa a longer and more important storyline than what he planned at the beginning.

At this point, I'm 100% sure Sansa will do anything to get the North back and she will choose LF over Jon because Sansa feels she is the one that was betrayed by Jon and other Northern houses.

 

That missing quote, given the right context , would be a clue for a future betrayal. However, the context is key. If she was saying this to Jon or Brienne then it would be more about getting back at the Boltons or Stark enemies. With what we are given this season, I don't see a betrayal coming. As for GRRM's letter, I don't know if that predicts a future action. To me her betrayal was season one  because the letter says something like it will be a decision she later regrets (IIRC),  She does come to regret those actions. Also, that season one betrayal was more nuanced because she was young and naive.  That letter also presents a good reason to  betray the Starks. She has to choose between her old family and her new family (husband and child).  This is a compelling reason to betray her family, and it  makes her a more complex character. Betraying Jon because she wants what?? Power or position?? This seems a very empty reason and causes the character to seem very one dimensional. The missing line would help to support betrayal, but really, I would like to see more set up because the show has really convinced me that she cares for her family. (She has been complaining for a few seasons about people who betrayed her family.  She doesn't say they betrayed her.) 

[Future Null Infinity]

I think you didn't read the original outline of GRRM or totally misunderstood it

1 hour ago, permaximum said:

And considering George RR Martin's leaked letter of which revealed Sansa was supposed to eventually betray Jon, Bran and Arya and choose Joffrey over them

in the original outline, she didn't betray her brothers and sisters, she chose between her family and lannisters, this part of the story is already in the books, she chose the lannisters and she was responsible with other people for Ned's death

1 hour ago, permaximum said:

believe Martin replaced Joffrey with Littlefinger

in the original outline, she married Joffrey and got children with him, so no, LittleFinger didn't replace Joffrey

many book readers are actually fairly sure that the original end of Sansa is taken by Margaery, it wasn't written in the original outline but the logical explanation is that Sansa is the one who died in the explosion and not Margaery in the original outline

 

1 hour ago, permaximum said:

At this point, I'm 100% sure Sansa will do anything to get the North back and she will choose LF over Jon because Sansa feels she is the one that was betrayed by Jon and other Northern houses.

the original outline is a very different story from the actual one, it contains among other things a love triangle between Jon, Tyrion and Arya, so one can't base his predictions on an abandoned storyline, it's like make predictions of what will happen to IronMan basing on the story of Batman

[permaximum]

10 hours ago, Bear Claw said:

That missing quote, given the right context , would be a clue for a future betrayal. However, the context is key. If she was saying this to Jon or Brienne then it would be more about getting back at the Boltons or Stark enemies. With what we are given this season, I don't see a betrayal coming. As for GRRM's letter, I don't know if that predicts a future action. To me her betrayal was season one  because the letter says something like it will be a decision she later regrets (IIRC),  She does come to regret those actions. Also, that season one betrayal was more nuanced because she was young and naive.  That letter also presents a good reason to  betray the Starks. She has to choose between her old family and her new family (husband and child).  This is a compelling reason to betray her family, and it  makes her a more complex character. Betraying Jon because she wants what?? Power or position?? This seems a very empty reason and causes the character to seem very one dimensional. The missing line would help to support betrayal, but really, I would like to see more set up because the show has really convinced me that she cares for her family. (She has been complaining for a few seasons about people who betrayed her family.  She doesn't say they betrayed her.) 

I don't think Sansa betrayed her family knowingly in season 1. She was just stupid to tell Ned's plans to Cersei.

When I analyse the showrunners', Harrington's, Cunningham's and Turner's words on this topic, the missing line from the trailer, the costume Turner did put on in the season 6 stage and George RR Martin's letter, it's almost a given Sansa will do things Jon won't like one way or another. She still may carry a child and she may regret siding with Littlefinger later. In Sansa's case it's not really about power but not getting what's hers by right and the fact that she didn't get any credit for what happened.

Besides, I don't hink Sansa has any other purpose in the story anymore. And this new storyline wiil be the end of her.

10 hours ago, Future Null Infinity said:

I think you didn't read the original outline of GRRM or totally misunderstood it

in the original outline, she didn't betray her brothers and sisters, she chose between her family and lannisters, this part of the story is already in the books, she chose the lannisters and she was responsible with other people for Ned's death

in the original outline, she married Joffrey and got children with him, so no, LittleFinger didn't replace Joffrey

many book readers are actually fairly sure that the original end of Sansa is taken by Margaery, it wasn't written in the original outline but the logical explanation is that Sansa is the one who died in the explosion and not Margaery in the original outline

 

the original outline is a very different story from the actual one, it contains among other things a love triangle between Jon, Tyrion and Arya, so one can't base his predictions on an abandoned storyline, it's like make predictions of what will happen to IronMan basing on the story of Batman

Each of the contending families will learn it has a member of dubious loyalty in its midst. Sansa Stark, wed to Joffrey Baratheon, will bear him a son, the heir to the throne, and when the crunch comes she will choose her husband and child over her parents and siblings, a choice she will later bitterly rue.

It sounds like a betrayal that she would regret later to me. As for what happened in the season 1 it was a stupid mistake and nothing more. Nothing of importance that would make GRRM to include it in the summary of the story in that letter.

I said it's very possible Littlefinger replaced Joffrey as the one she will choose over her family in the current ongoing story. Not the one GRRM talked about in 1993.

Those opinions of some book readers are just some opinions and nothing more. No one but Martin could know what he planned for Sansa's ending in the first place and now.

Your Iron-Man- Batman example is a very poor one. The original outline shares the crucial points of the ongoing story with a certain similarity. The deaths of major characters like Ned, Catelyn, Robb, the White walkers, Viserys' death, Dany's main story and acquiring of dragons, Tyrion's departure from his family etc. all remained the same.

[Future Null Infinity]

24 minutes ago, permaximum said:

It sounds like a betrayal that she would regret later to me. As for what happened in the season 1 it was a stupid mistake and nothing more. Nothing of importance that would make GRRM to include it in the summary of the story in that letter.

the punishment that she received in her KL's journey is much much worse in the books than in the show, D&D tone down many scenes of her in KL because of the actress' age, so yes Ned's death was the betrayal and her journey in KL is the punishment mentionned in the outline, there is no other betrayal

24 minutes ago, permaximum said:

When I analyse the showrunners', Harrington's, Cunningham's and Turner's words on this topic, the missing line from the trailer, the costume Turner did put on in the season 6 stage and George RR Martin's letter, it's almost a given Sansa will do things Jon won't like one way or another. She still may carry a child and she may regret siding with Littlefinger later. In Sansa's case it's not really about power but not getting what's hers by right and the fact that she didn't get any credit for what happened.

this is not an original idea, redditors already analysed the "It's all I think about. What was taken from me" missing scene and it was an extensive debate about it, they tried to figure out the location of the room :

• if the room is in CB, then the quote is about Ramsay
• if the room is in WF, the the quote is about Jon

unfornately, the room is too dark to get a definitive answer, it's an open question now

 

[permaximum]

2 hours ago, Future Null Infinity said:

the punishment that she received in her KL's journey is much much worse in the books than in the show, D&D tone down many scenes of her in KL because of the actress' age, so yes Ned's death was the betrayal and her journey in KL is the punishment mentionned in the outline, there is no other betrayal

this is not an original idea, redditors already analysed the "It's all I think about. What was taken from me" missing scene and it was an extensive debate about it, they tried to figure out the location of the room :

• if the room is in CB, then the quote is about Ramsay
• if the room is in WF, the the quote is about Jon

unfornately, the room is too dark to get a definitive answer, it's an open question now

 

I stand behind what I said. It wasn't such an important point for GRRM to mention it in the letter. That cannot be the betrayal he mentioned.

As for trying to figure out the location of the room: LOL  It's the scene Ramsay was eaten by his hounds

[Not a kneeler]

I have watched Winds of Winter five times by now, and at least three of those times I was fully awake. Also, I have benefitted from living on the forums far more than anyone should and know what to look for. When Lyanna said (paraphrased) " the North will have no king but whose name is Stark.." Sansa was smiling and stopped smiling when she said " even if his name is Snow." Sansa expected that honor would come to her because she was the only Stark in the room and was heir to Winterfell. She may have been born in Winterfell, but she has her mother's southern ambition. She doesn't understand the North at all. Northerners want to follow a leader and not someone who has inherited a title. For all she has gone through, Sansa still puts more status on style rather than substance. Whether this blows up into a major plot point or is only a teaser to keep us busy during the off season, well, only time will tell.

It's all a mute point. Bran is the true heir to Winterfell and I am assuming that Bran will come through the Wall and down to Winterfell. What will LF do then? He has based his whole plan to acquire power through Sansa's claim on Winterfell, at least in the show. And Bran is not dying at least until the end. D&D let something slip when they said that they don't want to be ending this show when bran is 30.

[Lurid Jester]

I still don't get why people are taking Sophie's quote as indication of some future betrayal for next season.  The timing of the interview is important, at least in relation to what the viewer knows.  I took it as referring to her decision to not tell Jon about the Vale Knights, and regretting it.  

[NutBurz]

I never saw a single video outside the series, except for schola gladiatoria´s analisys of the ToJ fight which I recommend to everyone just because it´s cool, and her not being trustful of Jon is the first and only impression I got from this episode.

 

If I had to guess, Sansa and Jon will break regarding how to fight the WW threat. Jon will believe they have to man every bit of the Wall while Sansa, maybe fuelled by LF and her own ignorance regarding the WWs, will think it´s best for everyone to protect their own Castles and Holdfasts.

I don´t see the guys screaming "king in the North" and then when the King tells them to march North, they just go "meh, that was a poor choice, he´s not my king anymore". They will follow Jon, and that will bother Sansa even further. Then they will all witness the wall falling as they march, and maybe a whole bunch of people will then think "ok, this was a bad idea, maybe Sansa was right". She wasn´t, but it would be hard to convince them (or her) otherwise.

In any case, Jon goes back to the dead where he belongs. ^^

[lakin1013]

2 hours ago, NutBurz said:

 

I never saw a single video outside the series, except for schola gladiatoria´s analisys of the ToJ fight which I recommend to everyone just because it´s cool,

 

TY for this,  I went and watched it, you are right, it is very interesting and informative.  I had to look up many of the terms he was using 

[Lord Friendzone]

3 hours ago, NutBurz said:

I never saw a single video outside the series, except for schola gladiatoria´s analisys of the ToJ fight which I recommend to everyone just because it´s cool, and her not being trustful of Jon is the first and only impression I got from this episode.

 

If I had to guess, Sansa and Jon will break regarding how to fight the WW threat. Jon will believe they have to man every bit of the Wall while Sansa, maybe fuelled by LF and her own ignorance regarding the WWs, will think it´s best for everyone to protect their own Castles and Holdfasts.

I don´t see the guys screaming "king in the North" and then when the King tells them to march North, they just go "meh, that was a poor choice, he´s not my king anymore". They will follow Jon, and that will bother Sansa even further. Then they will all witness the wall falling as they march, and maybe a whole bunch of people will then think "ok, this was a bad idea, maybe Sansa was right". She wasn´t, but it would be hard to convince them (or her) otherwise.

In any case, Jon goes back to the dead where he belongs. ^^

 I watch review of Battle of the Bastards and it was really good. Also TOJ. Dual wielding Athur Dayne and all that.

[Quyen Thuy Tran]

I highly doubt that Sansa has any knowledge of the WW and Wights even if Jon told her. Even if she believes they exist, she would be the same as others thinking that they won't attack humans behind the wall. In fact, I think Northerners might think it's safe behind the wall. 

So if they ignore Jon's words and try to do politics and drive Jon away, they will die soon. Jon might go to Dany and help her in the end.