Bond 25: No Time To Die

[Ran]

13 minutes ago, john said:

But you can respond to tell me you can’t respond? Got it.

Making an imperialist old-Etonian into a black man is already a significant change so I’m not sure why changing the gender is suddenly a step too far.

I do have to say that the idea that gender is as superficial a change as race feels very weird. As widely noted by genetic scientists, race really is something of an artificial construct -- there are greater levels of genetic difference between Africans of various regions than there are between, say, northern Europeans and East Asians -- whereas in the vast majority of cases sex is fairly straightforward and entails a substantial number of differences in terms of anatomy, endocrinology, and even neurology, before we even get into the culturally-specified differences.

Also, IIRC, there are black Old Etonians. Isn't Kwasi Kwarteng one, for example? I don't think a black James Bond would stop being a posh sort.

[john]

@Ran, changing a fictional character is as simple or as difficult as the writers want it to be.  I’d expect the character of a female Bond to encapsulate differences about her anatomy and endocrinology and I’d expect the character of an imperialist, old-Etonian, military hero of African descent to encapsulate differences about their life experience.

Some of that might be interesting to explore, most of it would be easy to ignore.

[James Arryn]

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

If you genuinely believe that changing James Bond into a female is merely ‘cosmetic’ or that somehow it’s a smaller change then making him less posh then.. wow.. I mean.. I simply can’t respond to that. 

I’ve read all the novels. The only way in which his masculinity was essential was with regards to his misogyny. They’ve already done away with (most of) that without some great disturbance in the force, there’s no reason that the remaining non-essential masculinity couldn’t go the same way.

Now I’m kinda against the idea of doing it just to do it, but if the right actress is there and a script really works, why not?

[Conflicting Thought]

2 hours ago, Heartofice said:

If you genuinely believe that changing James Bond into a female is merely ‘cosmetic’ or that somehow it’s a smaller change then making him less posh then.. wow.. I mean.. I simply can’t respond to that. 

If you cant, then dont. Cuz you are not saying anything to advance your "point". 

[Rhom]

Again, I think this is the most ridiculous of arguments.  James Bond is a man.  There is no reason to change the sex for future movies and quite honestly I think the argument in favor is a bit of pandering and unoriginality.

Want a kick ass female spy?  Make one!  In fact, plenty of examples of good characters have already been given.  To argue in favor of making Bond female is merely to argue for the shock value of it and has no real grounding in seeking diverse or original stories.

[Raja]

12 minutes ago, Rhom said:

Again, I think this is the most ridiculous of arguments.  James Bond is a man.  There is no reason to change the sex for future movies and

Sigh. Shit like this is disappointing to read from people that aren't trolls.

What James Arryn said above is correct.

[Heartofice]

57 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

Now I’m kinda against the idea of doing it just to do it, but if the right actress is there and a script really works, why not?

I don't think the question is 'why not?', the question is 'why?'.

Why change a fundamental characteristic of James Bond, what would be the compelling reason to do it. So far nobody has come up with one other than 'representation'. Except that there are already a huge swathe of female led action movies, movies that closely follow the bond format. So there clearly isn't anything holding those movies back. 

If you want to make huge changes to an established character then I'd question what the reasoning for doing that would be. Arguing that changing Bonds physical sex isn't a big change is nonsensical, Bond being a man is a fundamental part of his character. 

I'd suggest that Craig Bond is already not a great Bond as well. There was a lot of wailing when he was picked because he wasn't good looking, and that is kind of important. Casino Royale quietened those cries because Craig did a good job portraying a rough around the edges early Bond who would eventually go on to be the smooth sophisticated Bond we know.
For me he never really got there, and every movie since Royale has highlighted to me that Craig is too old and craggy, too grumpy and not charming enough to be Bond. The whole franchise at the moment I think is in a crater, with every movie seemingly as blandly uninteresting as the last. Maybe actually having a recognisable James Bond character would be a good move to start with. 

So really what is there to gain by moving further and further away from what people recognise as Bond? At what point can you still call it a Bond movie with a straight face. The desire for change it seems to be purely motivated for political reasons. It would also be a deeply unpopular move, most people when polled said they'd be against the idea. 
 

[Rhom]

Here is my long standing argument for diversity and inclusion in film/TV.  To artificially change race or sex just for the sake of being "diverse" is counter productive.  True diversity in Hollywood will only come when it doesn't matter what race the actor is.  Look around all these threads talking about reboots and remakes and you will see a general lamentation from all corners that Hollywood has lost its originality.  So to see an argument that James Bond should be female "because" just reeks of further laziness to me.  Write an original story.  Are we to feel that humanity has reached the zenith of our story telling ability?  No further advances or new material can be made as of 2020 AD.  Alas Babylon! 

 

Give me a new character.  I would go see an original spy flick featuring a female lead with a good hook in a heartbeat.  To make her be James Bond tells me that you don't think a woman can carry a movie on her own, she has to be propped up by the reputation of the men who carried the name before.  

[Heartofice]

@Rhom I completely agree. The only reason these arguments keep coming up is because there seems to be a monopoly on franchise power. 

Would there be a huge uproar about lack of diversity in Superhero movies 20 years ago? Of course not. Because there were other types of movies you could go and watch. Why would anyone complain about a genre that was mostly watched by nerdy boys. That has all changed now because Superhero movies are basically the only game in town.

Same with Bond, except its really quite irrelevant. There are already numerous female led spy and action franchises. Unfortunately the majority of them haven't led anywhere or have bombed. 

All this really is, is just a way to create some buzz around Bond movies, get people talking about them again. It's all clickbait. There isn't any genuine appetite to make a female bond.. but of course its a bad idea to publicly say that.

[Raja]

1 hour ago, Rhom said:

  To make her be James Bond tells me that you don't think a woman can carry a movie on her own, she has to be propped up by the reputation of the men who carried the name before.   

Or I believe that institutions in entertainment should be for every one & not just white dudes -  and seeing a person of colour or a women playing a character in a movie that is an institution in entertainment is a step towards being inclusive ( And Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, James Bond, Doctor Who all fall under this umbrella). Lots of Bond movies have been hot garbage, but you can tell stories of people of colour and women authentically even within these spaces - that you think that you can't, is rather telling.

I'm not saying Bond should be a women or a person of colour for the sake of it - I'm saying Bond can be a women or a person of colour whilst the movie still being a well written & good movie - and this is what people are saying  - as James Arryn says, if there's a good script and an actress that can do it ( and there are plenty who can), then I am totally open to seeing that on the big screen.

 

[john]

55 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Why change a fundamental characteristic of James Bond, what would be the compelling reason to do it. So far nobody has come up with one other than 'representation'. Except that there are already a huge swathe of female led action movies, movies that closely follow the bond format. So there clearly isn't anything holding those movies back. 

An iconic character is generally a better example of representation than a newly created character nobody has previously heard of. As you pointed out yourself female led spy franchises have not been particularly successful.

Luckily, Bond already exists and could be made a woman with a few strokes of a pen and a call to a casting agent. Solves the problem and gives a chance of reinvigorating a tired and meandering franchise.

[Heartofice]

3 minutes ago, john said:

Luckily, Bond already exists and could be made a woman with a few strokes of a pen and a call to a casting agent. Solves the problem and gives a chance of reinvigorating a tired and meandering franchise.

How does it solve the problem.. and what is the problem it is trying to solve?

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

I would think the recent Netflix Dracula miniseries would prove you can change the gender of an established character and make it work, maybe better than ever.

That said, I think if you want a female Bond, it either has to be a 007 with a different backstory or Bond’s daughter, preferably one he doesn’t know about and only discovers her real name is Bond at the end of the film.

[Conflicting Thought]

2 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Why change a fundamental characteristic of James Bond, what would be the compelling reason to do it. So far nobody has come up with one other than 'representation'

I mean, plenty of people have tell you their reasons, im shure they find them compelling, maybe you want them to tell you a reason that YOU find compelling. 

Why is it necessary to come up with another reason? For a lot of people representation is enough. 

I would like a woman bond, for representation, yes, but also, cuz i think it would be fun to change a famous misogynist to a woman, i just would like to see that. 

Another reason is cuz it would be so funny to see you and others like you go crazy becouse a FICTIONAL CHARACTER is a woman now. 

Why do you care so much, dont ypubhave the hundreds of other james bond movies to watch? 

And we are not talking about a new IP, that is not the conversation, we want a woman bond that is it. 

[Fez]

Hmm. I'm all for more female-led spy and action movies, I'm even someone who did like Atomic Blonde. But I tend to think James Bond should always be a man, because that's simply who the established character is. If you're going to tell a specific story, I think it's worth being true to what that story is; otherwise, why not tell a different story instead? Hell, do a spin-off from Bond, about 005, a female spy, if you want; I'd watch it.

I wouldn't be outraged if there was a female James Bond, but I would think it was a bit silly and unnecessary. Mad Max: Fury Road had a female lead, but it wasn't by casting Charlize Theron as Max; she was a new character, who happened to be way more badass and vital to the story than Max was. And it was a great movie. To me, that's the way to do it if you want to stay within an established story.

[john]

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

How does it solve the problem.. and what is the problem it is trying to solve?

The problem of female led spy franchises not being particularly successful. It solves it by having a much greater likelihood of being successful.

And hang on, you liked Tywin’s post, so you do like the idea of a female Bond as long as it’s the male Bond’s daughter?

[Heartofice]

3 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said:

Why is it necessary to come up with another reason? For a lot of people representation is enough. 

I would like a woman bond, for representation, yes, but also, cuz i think it would be fun to change a famous misogynist to a woman, i just would like to see that. 

Well I'm happy that you know what you want, unfortunately for you, just like on a lot of issues, you are pretty much in the minority on that one.

https://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/lifestyle/entertainment/three-quarters-do-not-want-female-bond-poll-claims/
 

Quote

In a survey of more than 2,000 people across the world by RadioTimes.com, 77% said they did not want to see a female 007 in the future.

In particular, Britons are said to be even more averse to the idea, as 82% of UK-based voters rejected the notion.

 

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Why do you care so much, dont ypubhave the hundreds of other james bond movies to watch? 

I'm not passionate about James Bond at all, in fact the recent movies have bored me to tears. The interesting thing I find about this discussion is the strange politics behind it. For instance you want to see a female James Bond because people you imagine you don't like will be upset. Others want to see it for reasons of "representation" (though I'm not sure where the lack of representation is in 2020)

So whereas you claim there are a bunch of people going crazy because of the change, in fact when I posted the link about the comments by the James Bond producer, it wasn't me who started losing his mind, it was many of 'you guys' 

[john]

We know there’s not going to be a female James Bond.  Barbara Broccoli said so. This is just a message board discussion.

[Heartofice]

Just now, john said:

The problem of female led spy franchises not being particularly successful. It solves it by having a much greater likelihood of being successful.

Except there doesn't appear to be any appetite for a female bond if you ask audiences. As per the poll I just posted.

Plus, I think you are misdiagnosing the problems.

Firstly, that female spy franchises aren't doing well. You are assuming it is because there isn't an established name or brand  behind them. Could it not be that either these movies are simply not very good (many of them aren't, but Atomic Blonde was ok, and might get a sequel I heard) or that actually there really isn't much interest in female spy movies? There have been a lot of these movies recently and it might not be a coincidence that these movies don't do well. A similar point could be made about the other 'gender swap' movies that have been made and haven't done great. Maybe people don't really want to see these things.
 

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And hang on, you liked Tywin’s post, so you do like the idea of a female Bond as long as it’s the male Bond’s daughter?

I have no problem with female led movies, and if you wanted to go and do a spin off, with a different character then go ahead. The problem lies when you try and pull apart established characters for no reason other than for perceived political reasons. I can't see much justification for it.
 

[Rippounet]

Based on the novels it's extremely clear that Bond's identity as male is central to the character. Bond is a lady-killer in large part because he is conservative and quite misogynistic... He's the epitome of masculinity... But what today we call toxic masculinity.
I don't think the novels would be published today. That line about the lesbian who falls for Bond because she has "never met a real man before" for instance... Honestly, in 2020 that would read as comedy.
And ironically I'd say the movies toned down the conservatism with Roger Moore more than with Daniel Craig. "The bitch is dead" line is in Casino Royale after all, and Craig was physically more impressive than Moore imho. Craig also seemed to be aware that Bond is toxic imho...

So no, you can't really have a "female James Bond" because James Bond was always a toxic male. If anything he's probably one of the few fictional characters whose gender you cannot change. Unless you want to actively subvert it, of course. But then, you shouldn't be surprised if even feminists might be reluctant to go that far.

7 minutes ago, john said:

The problem of female led spy franchises not being particularly successful. It solves it by having a much greater likelihood of being successful.

Or you completely destroy the franchise and solve nothing. 

Of course, it's still possible to have a female 005 or Bond's daughter as a main character for a movie. That's pretty much the direction the next movie will take: instead of changing James Bond himself, you introduce another character.