Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Eldric Stark

Bloodraven vs Bittersteel. A prediction

Recommended Posts

Throughout the novels and the world book, we are constantly reminded of the many struggles between bloodraven and bittersteel. Bloodraven made it his life's work (before being sent to the wall) to put down blackfyre rebellions. His hatred for the blackfyres is also what gets him sent to the wall by Aegon V the unlikely, when he beheads a blackfyre who was promised to be included in the great council that chose Aegon V. The third dunc and egg tale is about bloodraven suppressing a blackfyre rebellion before it begins. Bloodraven and bittersteel both loved their half-sister shiera Seastar.

 

i believe grrm is telling us what will happen in the future by the elaborate story of bloodraven vs the blackfyres and bittersteel, and the struggle for shiera. 

 

At the end of dance with dragons, bittersteel is clearly represented by Aegon VI, who has the golden company with him. I don't know if Aegon VI is really the son of rhaegar and Elia, but it honestly doesn't matter. Bittersteel founded the golden company and his skull is still on the sigil and spear that the golden company uses, along with the skulls of every lord commander. 

 

So here we see bittersteel represented in current events while north of the wall bloodraven lives. However, I believe we will see another major player come to represent bloodraven in the fight, who may seem unrelated to the historical rivalry. 

 

Euron Greyjoy's sigil is a red eye with an iron crown supported by two crows. His nickname is crows eye. Bloodraven is also the three eyed Raven. I think it is clear that euron is bloodraven's third eye.

 “When I was a boy, I dreamt that I could fly,” he announced. “When I woke, I couldn’t... or so the maester said. But what if he lied?”

- Euron Greyjoy.

Euron turned to face him, his bruised blue lips curled in a half smile. "Perhaps we can fly. All of us. How will we ever know unless we leap from some tall tower?" The wind came gusting through the window and stirred his sable cloak. There was something obscene and disturbing about his nakedness. "No man ever truly knows what he can do unless he dares to leap."

-affc, the reaver

euron says that to victarrion during their last conversation in affc. However, this sounds a lot like bran talking about waking up and talking to maester luwin. bran fell from a tower and is promised that he will fly by bloodraven. 

 

The only evidence is the sigil, nickname, and these 2 quotes. Euron's excellent pillaging, worldliness, and atheism can be explained by this warging. I feel like bloodraven is also the type of person to have questionable morals, as euron does (and always has it seems). I am considering the theory that bloodraven and bran (branraven) are warging euron as a given for the rest of my prediction.

 

Both Aegon vi and euron have intentions to marry daenarys. My theory is that bloodraven historically beating bittersteel foreshadows the conflict between Aegon vi and euron. Both wish to win the iron throne. Aegon is going north from storms end to kings landing and euron northwest from the shield islands. My prediction is that they will meet at kings landing and euron will win and kill aegon, prob in a very dishonorable way.

I beleive daenarys represents shiera seastar in the situation. Both want to marry her. Shieras mother was well trained in keeping herself looking young, as shiera may have learned to do. For this reason, I think she is the best and only reasonable candidate for quaithe's true identity because quaithe could be much older than she actually is. What other notable woman are missing from the WOIAF that would help dany? shiera is clearly a major player and we have no closure on what happens to her. Grrm has clearly purposely left this open-ended. Quaithe/shiera help dany. Shiera does not marry bloodraven or bittersteel, and dany will not marry euron or Aegon, but she will marry Jon targaryen. 

 

I will post more about why why Jon will be the one to marry her, the azor ahai prophecy and bloodraven, but my next post will be about the 3 (or 4) dragonriders. I have a couple of predictions I would like to post just so they're documented before the last two books come out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

you had me till you had Euron representing Bloodraven. i like the paralells but i think the Bittersteel/BR sides will be played by people with Targ blood. Aegon fits that description, Euron does not. But, as we know, there are many other people who could take Eurons spot representing BR. not bad, not bad at all though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Westerosi Coast Gangster said:

you had me till you had Euron representing Bloodraven. i like the paralells but i think the Bittersteel/BR sides will be played by people with Targ blood. Aegon fits that description, Euron does not. But, as we know, there are many other people who could take Eurons spot representing BR. not bad, not bad at all though.

Then how do you explain euron's sigil and nickname "crows eye"? Bloodraven was a crow of the nights watch and has two red eyes and has a third eye somewhere (three eyed Raven/crow). Euron's sigil has a red eye on it and two crows. 

 

Euron, in Greek mythology, is the name of the Prince of darkness. This would make bloodraven the king. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The third eye is the mind's eye, greenseeing, that's established over more characters than Bloodraven.

There could be many reasons why Euron is called the Crow's Eye in and out of world, for example it could be a hint he's a skinchanger or greenseer, as in capable of taking a crow's eye view of the world, looking down from above, by either greenseeing as Bran has or skinchanging a crow.

That Bloodraven was in contact with Euron as a child seems very plausible, that he's still in contact with Euron, still pulling his strings overtly or covertly is another matter. The chapter points very much to a female as his primary influence and to no other.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think that Euron is Bloodravens agent, although I share the believe that BR contacted Euron when he was young. Euron seems to have greenseeing abilities, but I don't believe he's still in contact with BR (the latter was searching for the last greenseer, but this wasn't Euron, and he later found Bran and brought him north). but I thinkt Euron saw many other things like the Others. I think that Euron will be the major human villain in the books to come - after his attack on Oldtown he will find the Horn of Joramun which Sam brought with him, and then he will cause the Wall to fall. but this is another topic ;-)

 

So, I see some parallels between the BR-Bittersteel-feud and the upcoming conflict, and therefore BR might oppose fAegon. But in this point we disagree - Euron is surely not BRs agent.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

1 hour ago, Túrin the Turambar said:

I don't think that Euron is Bloodravens agent, although I share the believe that BR contacted Euron when he was young. Euron seems to have greenseeing abilities, but I don't believe he's still in contact with BR (the latter was searching for the last greenseer, but this wasn't Euron, and he later found Bran and brought him north). but I thinkt Euron saw many other things like the Others. I think that Euron will be the major human villain in the books to come - after his attack on Oldtown he will find the Horn of Joramun which Sam brought with him, and then he will cause the Wall to fall. but this is another topic ;-)

 

So, I see some parallels between the BR-Bittersteel-feud and the upcoming conflict, and therefore BR might oppose fAegon. But in this point we disagree - Euron is surely not BRs agent.

I agree. Its very unlikely that Bloodraven only had Bran scouted out. Chances are he sent out a similar dream message on broadband and all potentials with ability to become greenseer picked it up in their dreams at certain age. And Bloodraven only started sending out these dreams relatively recently - last 20 years or so, possibly because he realized that he is too old and feeble to stop WW and had a need of replacement.

The question is what the receivers of these dreams do with it. Most forget it as curious dream, other use it to turn to magic (like Euron) and only one - Bran - followed through and it was only by chance.  

 

Separate question about Bittersteel and Bloodraven. Bittersteel supported Daemon Blackfire and his descendants, but was there any indication of HIS descendants or was he childless living his revenge thru Daemon's children?

Bloodraven mentioned to Bran that he had "a brother who I loved and a brother who I hated", Bittersteel was the brother he hated. Who was his brother that he loved? Was it Aerys I who made him the Hand in the first place? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On July 10, 2016 at 8:15 AM, chrisdaw said:

The third eye is the mind's eye, greenseeing, that's established over more characters than Bloodraven.

There could be many reasons why Euron is called the Crow's Eye in and out of world, for example it could be a hint he's a skinchanger or greenseer, as in capable of taking a crow's eye view of the world, looking down from above, by either greenseeing as Bran has or skinchanging a crow.

That Bloodraven was in contact with Euron as a child seems very plausible, that he's still in contact with Euron, still pulling his strings overtly or covertly is another matter. The chapter points very much to a female as his primary influence and to no other.

I don't think that they are in contact, I think that bloodraven IS euron and that bloodraven wargs him. Euron can't keep bloodraven out of his body and probably is okay with it at this point since it has made him King. 

Bloodraven is capable of warging far away (rhaegar's cat, mormont's crow) and probably capable of warging humans, as bran is. 

Bloodraven is motivated by a woman, shiera seastar!

 

the sigil and nickname are revealing!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Eldric Stark said:

I don't think that they are in contact, I think that bloodraven IS euron and that bloodraven wargs him. Euron can't keep bloodraven out of his body and probably is okay with it at this point since it has made him King. 

Bloodraven is capable of warging far away (rhaegar's cat, mormont's crow) and probably capable of warging humans, as bran is. 

Bloodraven is motivated by a woman, shiera seastar!

 

the sigil and nickname are revealing!

Mormont Crow is obvious, but explain Rhaegar's cat

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Masha said:

Mormont Crow is obvious, but explain Rhaegar's cat

It's basically speculation that Bloodraven skin-changes Princess Rhaenys Targaryen's cat Balerion to keep an eye on the goings on in Kings Landing.  Also, the (imo) strong possibility is that the old black tomcat that Arya chases and that a goldcloak tells her a story about snatching a roast quail right out of Tywin's hands at a feast is none other than the lost kitten Balerion.  Another theory that I've seen is that little Rhaenys herself is living a "second life" skin-changed into her cat.  Who knows?:dunno:    

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Prince of the North said:

It's basically speculation that Bloodraven skin-changes Princess Rhaenys Targaryen's cat Balerion to keep an eye on the goings on in Kings Landing.  Also, the (imo) strong possibility is that the old black tomcat that Arya chases and that a goldcloak tells her a story about snatching a roast quail right out of Tywin's hands at a feast is none other than the lost kitten Balerion.  Another theory that I've seen is that little Rhaenys herself is living a "second life" skin-changed into her cat.  Who knows?:dunno:    

Its kind of obvious that kitty Balerion that princess Rhaenys had is the same old tomcat that Arya chases. Its a given.

But them BR skinchanging into the cat or little Rhaenys doing it, there are no indications or hints of it, other then regular cat behavior.

However, there are more than enough hints that if Arya ever comes back to KL (to check Cersei off her list), she'll be skinchanging with Balerion since she has been skinchanging with cats all over Braavos

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Masha said:

Its kind of obvious that kitty Balerion that princess Rhaenys had is the same old tomcat that Arya chases. Its a given.

But them BR skinchanging into the cat or little Rhaenys doing it, there are no indications or hints of it, other then regular cat behavior.

However, there are more than enough hints that if Arya ever comes back to KL (to check Cersei off her list), she'll be skinchanging with Balerion since she has been skinchanging with cats all over Braavos

It's funny.  The things you say are "givens" and "obvious" may not be so to others and vice versa.  It's all in one's interpretation, isn't it?  And I think there are those who would say a cat snatching a roast quail right out of Tywin Lannister's hands at a feast is not "regular cat behavior".  There are also those who interpret the old tomcat's watching/pestering Tommen and his kittens, etc. as possibly indicating someone skin-changing to keep an eye on things.  Furthermore, the wiki says this old tomcat was known to attack ravens in the Red Keeps' rookery.  Now, that could just be "normal cat behavior" or there could be those who speculate that it might be something else;) 

Basically, I do think there's more to that old tomcat than just normal cat behavior but we won't know for sure until Martin tells us...and he doesn't even want to confirm for us whether the old tomcat is actually Balerion or not:dunno:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Prince of the North said:

It's funny.  The things you say are "givens" and "obvious" may not be so to others and vice versa.  It's all in one's interpretation, isn't it?  And I think there are those who would say a cat snatching a roast quail right out of Tywin Lannister's hands at a feast is not "regular cat behavior".  There are also those who interpret the old tomcat's watching/pestering Tommen and his kittens, etc. as possibly indicating someone skin-changing to keep an eye on things.  Furthermore, the wiki says this old tomcat was known to attack ravens in the Red Keeps' rookery.  Now, that could just be "normal cat behavior" or there could be those who speculate that it might be something else;) 

Basically, I do think there's more to that old tomcat than just normal cat behavior but we won't know for sure until Martin tells us...and he doesn't even want to confirm for us whether the old tomcat is actually Balerion or not:dunno:

I am pretty sure there were more than one similarity of little Balerion and the old tomcat, such as coloring or missing part of the ear, I remember reading it and the description was strikingly similar and it seemed obvious to me it was the same cat just grown up. 

All you describe is an indication of normal, although extremely brazen, cat behavior. Snatching food out of master's hands, pestering new kittens in his territory, attacking birds as prey...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Masha said:

I am pretty sure there were more than one similarity of little Balerion and the old tomcat, such as coloring or missing part of the ear, I remember reading it and the description was strikingly similar and it seemed obvious to me it was the same cat just grown up. 

All you describe is an indication of normal, although extremely brazen, cat behavior. Snatching food out of master's hands, pestering new kittens in his territory, attacking birds as prey...

I don't really know what the point of your post is.  Are you saying that no one else could possibly have other thoughts or interpretations of this than you?  If so, I disagree.  I make no contention as to what is right or wrong.  I do make the contention that you don't know for certain either and we won't know until Martin tells us.  So please don't treat your opinion or interpretation as somehow being fact before it is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You guys are right I just believe bloodraven wargs that cat because I read it somewhere. However, my point was that br can warg far away. Don't we already assume he can warg every weirwood tree? Can we assume that when animals are near any tree in westeros for long enough then he can warg that animal? This is why I think he can warg anything in westeros. I think bloodraven is very powerful magically and is warging euron is the point I would like to drive home here.

 

"Euron turned to face him, his bruised blue lips curled in a half smile. "Perhaps we can fly. All of us. How will we ever know unless we leap from some tall tower?" The wind came gusting through the window and stirred his sable cloak. There was something obscene and disturbing about his nakedness. "No man ever truly knows what he can do unless he dares to leap.""

 

Bran leaped from a tower. I also had the first part of the quote in the original post. The only evidence is these quotes and his sigil and nickname. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Masha said:

Its kind of obvious that kitty Balerion that princess Rhaenys had is the same old tomcat that Arya chases. Its a given.

But them BR skinchanging into the cat or little Rhaenys doing it, there are no indications or hints of it, other then regular cat behavior.

However, there are more than enough hints that if Arya ever comes back to KL (to check Cersei off her list), she'll be skinchanging with Balerion since she has been skinchanging with cats all over Braavos

signed.

 

On 11.7.2016 at 5:46 PM, Masha said:

Separate question about Bittersteel and Bloodraven. Bittersteel supported Daemon Blackfire and his descendants, but was there any indication of HIS descendants or was he childless living his revenge thru Daemon's children?

Bloodraven mentioned to Bran that he had "a brother who I loved and a brother who I hated", Bittersteel was the brother he hated. Who was his brother that he loved? Was it Aerys I who made him the Hand in the first place? 

AFAIK Bittersteel was wed with Daemon Blackfyre's daughter Calla, but nothing is known about children of them - nor about any bastards.

the brother he loved would have been Daeron II. Targaryen - he's a half-brother, but the same is true with Bittersteel.

 

On 11.7.2016 at 6:17 PM, Eldric Stark said:

I don't think that they are in contact, I think that bloodraven IS euron and that bloodraven wargs him. Euron can't keep bloodraven out of his body and probably is okay with it at this point since it has made him King. 

Bloodraven is capable of warging far away (rhaegar's cat, mormont's crow) and probably capable of warging humans, as bran is. 

Bloodraven is motivated by a woman, shiera seastar!

 

the sigil and nickname are revealing!

I don't agree with that. IMO there are no real hints supporting that.

and IMO Bloodraven works against the Others (his cave is protected against them and against wights), while Euron will bring down the Wall - they are not on the same side.

and if Bloodraven would have been able to control humans, why hadn't he just warged into Bran to direct him to the North?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Túrin the Turambar said:

signed.

 

AFAIK Bittersteel was wed with Daemon Blackfyre's daughter Calla, but nothing is known about children of them - nor about any bastards.

the brother he loved would have been Daeron II. Targaryen - he's a half-brother, but the same is true with Bittersteel.

 

I don't agree with that. IMO there are no real hints supporting that.

and IMO Bloodraven works against the Others (his cave is protected against them and against wights), while Euron will bring down the Wall - they are not on the same side.

and if Bloodraven would have been able to control humans, why hadn't he just warged into Bran to direct him to the North?

How can you say a sigil and nickname aren't real evidence while you say he will bring down the wall? 

 

Hodor knows bran wargs him and euron would know br wargs him. Meera stressed the ethical issues in warging people and br has to choose carefully to avoid a mental struggle with the hosts. Euron has questionable ethics already (crimes against his brothers) and would allow bloodraven to warg him because it would be good for him. Bran wouldn't sacrifice his integrity.

 

speculation at this point 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Eldric Stark said:

You guys are right I just believe bloodraven wargs that cat because I read it somewhere. However, my point was that br can warg far away. Don't we already assume he can warg every weirwood tree? Can we assume that when animals are near any tree in westeros for long enough then he can warg that animal? This is why I think he can warg anything in westeros. I think bloodraven is very powerful magically and is warging euron is the point I would like to drive home here.

 

"Euron turned to face him, his bruised blue lips curled in a half smile. "Perhaps we can fly. All of us. How will we ever know unless we leap from some tall tower?" The wind came gusting through the window and stirred his sable cloak. There was something obscene and disturbing about his nakedness. "No man ever truly knows what he can do unless he dares to leap.""

 

Bran leaped from a tower. I also had the first part of the quote in the original post. The only evidence is these quotes and his sigil and nickname. 

I believe that Bloodraven can definately warg any weirwood tree or anything weirwood related. For example, when one of the Arya's chapters described a meeting between FM and them sitting on weirwood chairs, I kept thinking - either FM work directly for BR or he is 100% spying on them. I don't know anything BR warging anything other than raven which was confirmed. Unliked Bran who warged his wolf, crows and even Hodor, we only get confirmation that BR can warg weirwood trees and ravens, and somehow is able to influence Bran's and it looks like child-Euron's dreams. But I don't remember any indication of BR actually warging anything else

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/6/2016 at 9:59 PM, Eldric Stark said:

Throughout the novels and the world book, we are constantly reminded of the many struggles between bloodraven and bittersteel. Bloodraven made it his life's work (before being sent to the wall) to put down blackfyre rebellions. His hatred for the blackfyres is also what gets him sent to the wall by Aegon V the unlikely, when he beheads a blackfyre who was promised to be included in the great council that chose Aegon V. The third dunc and egg tale is about bloodraven suppressing a blackfyre rebellion before it begins. Bloodraven and bittersteel both loved their half-sister shiera Seastar.

 

i believe grrm is telling us what will happen in the future by the elaborate story of bloodraven vs the blackfyres and bittersteel, and the struggle for shiera. 

 

At the end of dance with dragons, bittersteel is clearly represented by Aegon VI, who has the golden company with him. I don't know if Aegon VI is really the son of rhaegar and Elia, but it honestly doesn't matter. Bittersteel founded the golden company and his skull is still on the sigil and spear that the golden company uses, along with the skulls of every lord commander. 

 

So here we see bittersteel represented in current events while north of the wall bloodraven lives. However, I believe we will see another major player come to represent bloodraven in the fight, who may seem unrelated to the historical rivalry. 

 

Euron Greyjoy's sigil is a red eye with an iron crown supported by two crows. His nickname is crows eye. Bloodraven is also the three eyed Raven. I think it is clear that euron is bloodraven's third eye.

 “When I was a boy, I dreamt that I could fly,” he announced. “When I woke, I couldn’t... or so the maester said. But what if he lied?”

- Euron Greyjoy.

Euron turned to face him, his bruised blue lips curled in a half smile. "Perhaps we can fly. All of us. How will we ever know unless we leap from some tall tower?" The wind came gusting through the window and stirred his sable cloak. There was something obscene and disturbing about his nakedness. "No man ever truly knows what he can do unless he dares to leap."

-affc, the reaver

euron says that to victarrion during their last conversation in affc. However, this sounds a lot like bran talking about waking up and talking to maester luwin. bran fell from a tower and is promised that he will fly by bloodraven. 

 

The only evidence is the sigil, nickname, and these 2 quotes. Euron's excellent pillaging, worldliness, and atheism can be explained by this warging. I feel like bloodraven is also the type of person to have questionable morals, as euron does (and always has it seems). I am considering the theory that bloodraven and bran (branraven) are warging euron as a given for the rest of my prediction.

 

Both Aegon vi and euron have intentions to marry daenarys. My theory is that bloodraven historically beating bittersteel foreshadows the conflict between Aegon vi and euron. Both wish to win the iron throne. Aegon is going north from storms end to kings landing and euron northwest from the shield islands. My prediction is that they will meet at kings landing and euron will win and kill aegon, prob in a very dishonorable way.

I beleive daenarys represents shiera seastar in the situation. Both want to marry her. Shieras mother was well trained in keeping herself looking young, as shiera may have learned to do. For this reason, I think she is the best and only reasonable candidate for quaithe's true identity because quaithe could be much older than she actually is. What other notable woman are missing from the WOIAF that would help dany? shiera is clearly a major player and we have no closure on what happens to her. Grrm has clearly purposely left this open-ended. Quaithe/shiera help dany. Shiera does not marry bloodraven or bittersteel, and dany will not marry euron or Aegon, but she will marry Jon targaryen. 

 

I will post more about why why Jon will be the one to marry her, the azor ahai prophecy and bloodraven, but my next post will be about the 3 (or 4) dragonriders. I have a couple of predictions I would like to post just so they're documented before the last two books come out.

Well, Bloodraven is still alive and Aegor is long dead. The thing with euron is that bloodraven never "visited" him. He does not mention a crow pecking at his head, or crow dreams. He mentions a childhood desire to fly, which every single kid in real life does, so that is not unique. Euron's magic comes from the shade of the evening  that he drinks. Nothing more, nothing less. 
Now, I can see the parallel between Brynden/Aegor as Jon/(f)Aegon with Dany as Shiera, but since as far as we can tell, (f)Aegon is actually the heir to the IT. 
The problem is, Jon does not even know dany, much less wanting to marry her. He has never been south of the neck, and she has never set fot on continental westeros. While I do believe they are meant to meet at some point, with Tyrion being the bridge between them, I do not see either of them liiking to wed each other. Jon is still in the watch after all. He swore a vow. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, Masha said:

Mormont Crow is obvious, but explain Rhaegar's cat

51 minutes ago, Masha said:

I believe that Bloodraven can definately warg any weirwood tree or anything weirwood related. For example, when one of the Arya's chapters described a meeting between FM and them sitting on weirwood chairs, I kept thinking - either FM work directly for BR or he is 100% spying on them. I don't know anything BR warging anything other than raven which was confirmed. Unliked Bran who warged his wolf, crows and even Hodor, we only get confirmation that BR can warg weirwood trees and ravens, and somehow is able to influence Bran's and it looks like child-Euron's dreams. But I don't remember any indication of BR actually warging anything else

here is a whole forum post about how bloodraven warged a plumm from an unknown distance in the mystery knight. It's convincing

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, Eldric Stark said:

here is a whole forum post about how bloodraven warged a plumm from an unknown distance in the mystery knight. It's convincing

Just read the thead you linked me with. It was a whole thread about how Bloodraven glamoured himself to look like Ser Plumm. That I actually agree with. Also spying on someone else's dreams, that I can also agree with. Its just warging I am having issues with. Ravens and Weirwood tree, that seems to be BR limit unless proven otherwise.

Warging - taken over someone else's body with your mind, aka possession

Glamouring - making yourself look like someone else.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×