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Eldric Stark

Bloodraven vs Bittersteel. A prediction

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Concerning examples of BR warning other animals, I think Mormons Raven is extremely likely, while there are some other incidences that could be him or could not, e.g. Roberts boar. I think based on Eurons statements it is plausible BR reached out during Eurons youth. If so, I think BR had to have failed and instead Eurons evilness took control. Rather than being used by magic, euron is now using magic to his own ends. But this can happen whether or not BR was involved. I can't see BR still being associated with someone so evil. If there is going to be a redo of BR vs bittersteel, BR would have a different agent. Any ideas who else it could be? And what would be the reasons we would exclude Bran?

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Don't need no BR warging Robert's boar. Those things are deadly and kill a lot of people in real-life. All Cersei had to do was to get Robert completely drunk on that hunt and somewhat apart from strong fighters who might protect him.

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On 12.7.2016 at 8:36 PM, Eldric Stark said:

How can you say a sigil and nickname aren't real evidence while you say he will bring down the wall? 

 

Hodor knows bran wargs him and euron would know br wargs him. Meera stressed the ethical issues in warging people and br has to choose carefully to avoid a mental struggle with the hosts. Euron has questionable ethics already (crimes against his brothers) and would allow bloodraven to warg him because it would be good for him. Bran wouldn't sacrifice his integrity.

 

speculation at this point 

Of course it's speculation.

But I believe that Euron will be the main human villain in TWOW. He thinks he's a god (see The Forsaken), and since the Horn of Joramun is in Oldtown now it will be Euron who blows it and brings down the Wall with it, because he thinks the Others would aid him and he could somehow control them (the vision of the pale woman in The Forsaken).

And as I already said - of course that's speculation. But I think this is more plausible than Euron beeing controlled by Bloodraven - because I think Bloodraven works against the Others and not with them. So it wouldn't fit.

And: Bloodraven would have to warg Euron all the time, so nobody would know. Hodor is a lackwit and he cannot articulate his experiences. But Euron could in times when Bloodraven's spirit is elsewhere. And I can't think of a reason, why he would like beeing warged. In the ADWD-prologue we see how a mentally healthy person fights to keep a warg out of her head. Hodor can't because he lacks the mental strength for this, but Euron would of course fight against beeing possessed.

As for his personal sigil: maybe it has something to do with his experience with Bloodraven in form of the three-eyed crow (as I said: I also believe that Bloodraven contacted him in his youth). But the crow fits very well for Euron's character, even without the former experience. Euron is a crow and AFFC is his feast - and TWOW will be too. He came to take the leavings from the bloody wars in the first three books.

But as I said - it's speculation. But some speculations works better for me than other. And in a few months (I hope :wacko:) we will know better, what was right. ^_^

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19 hours ago, Masha said:

Don't need no BR warging Robert's boar. Those things are deadly and kill a lot of people in real-life. All Cersei had to do was to get Robert completely drunk on that hunt and somewhat apart from strong fighters who might protect him.

I'd still think there's 50% chance BR helped the boar out. Anytime I see something with one eye that advances the plot in a major way I at least suspect BR. 

 

And i think Turin makes an excellent point about Euron being a crow, in the way that they eat the corpses after bloody battles, rather than the three eyed crow or The NW brothers.

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On 11.7.2016 at 4:46 PM, Masha said:

 

Separate question about Bittersteel and Bloodraven. Bittersteel supported Daemon Blackfire and his descendants, but was there any indication of HIS descendants or was he childless living his revenge thru Daemon's children?

 

Bittersteal married Daemon's daughter Calla Blackfyre they may or may not have had issue. It is mentioned that the male line of house blackfyre died but nothing of the female i think fAegon is a descendant of Bittersteal and Calla.

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On 7/14/2016 at 7:40 AM, Aegon VII said:

I'd still think there's 50% chance BR helped the boar out. Anytime I see something with one eye that advances the plot in a major way I at least suspect BR. 

the boar only had one eye during death. The problem with the BR warging something is that the story gets reduced to him skinchanging everyone and everything. If he is so powerful he can warg a direwolf with just the right amount of pups and send her south of the wall and then skinchange an elk to kill her yet let the puppies survive, and then send a Boar to kill bob, why does he need to stop there? why not simply skinchange every single person on the planet to get the job done? Why even send meera and jojen? Why not just warg hodor and send bran north with him? It would give coldhands less mouths to feed and it would allow them to travel faster. Hodor would never be scared in the holdfast, Coldhands would not have to send sam through the secret nightfort door or even deal with him at all. Hell, why not just warg Joff to let ned go back north and rally the north against the impending others invasion? 

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4 hours ago, Dorian Martell said:

the boar only had one eye during death. The problem with the BR warging something is that the story gets reduced to him skinchanging everyone and everything. If he is so powerful he can warg a direwolf with just the right amount of pups and send her south of the wall and then skinchange an elk to kill her yet let the puppies survive, and then send a Boar to kill bob, why does he need to stop there? why not simply skinchange every single person on the planet to get the job done? Why even send meera and jojen? Why not just warg hodor and send bran north with him? It would give coldhands less mouths to feed and it would allow them to travel faster. Hodor would never be scared in the holdfast, Coldhands would not have to send sam through the secret nightfort door or even deal with him at all. Hell, why not just warg Joff to let ned go back north and rally the north against the impending others invasion? 

Aye, it's a slippery slope indeed, but I still think it's prudent to at least consider BR every time an animal advances the plot. And if he can only warg animals and not humans it wouldn't be as overpowered as you describe above.

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6 minutes ago, Aegon VII said:

Aye, it's a slippery slope indeed, but I still think it's prudent to at least consider BR every time an animal advances the plot. And if he can only warg animals and not humans it wouldn't be as overpowered as you describe above.

But Bran can warg a human. So Bloodraven can as well. That is why I think the bloodraven wargs everyone plot theories don't hold water 

 

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On August 17, 2016 at 7:58 PM, Dorian Martell said:

But Bran can warg a human. So Bloodraven can as well.

Slippery slopes are more dangerous when one makes leaps like this. BR has been waiting around for ages for Bran, it could easily be the case that bran is a stronger warg and/or green seer than BR, with abilities BR does not possess. We have no evidence that BR wargs humans. Is it possible, yes, but no one here is making that argument. 

On August 17, 2016 at 7:58 PM, Dorian Martell said:

That is why I think the bloodraven wargs everyone plot theories don't hold water 

 

Fair enough, but BR warging an animal or two is not the same as him warging everyone. We have strong evidence that he wargs at least one animal (Mormons crow), so it's entirely possible he wargs others. Just because him warging everyone is a stupid theory does not make it any less likely that he wargs some creatures. It is prudent to at least consider BR as the agent anytime an animal contributes to plot development, even more so when they have one eye.

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8 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

Slippery slopes are more dangerous when one makes leaps like this. BR has been waiting around for ages for Bran, it could easily be the case that bran is a stronger warg and/or green seer than BR, with abilities BR does not possess. We have no evidence that BR wargs humans. Is it possible, yes, but no one here is making that argument. 

Fair enough, but BR warging an animal or two is not the same as him warging everyone. We have strong evidence that he wargs at least one animal (Mormons crow), so it's entirely possible he wargs others. Just because him warging everyone is a stupid theory does not make it any less likely that he wargs some creatures. It is prudent to at least consider BR as the agent anytime an animal contributes to plot development, even more so when they have one eye.

My issue is not with who has what powers, but how the story plays out. Bloodraven skinchanging a crow, or bran whispering to theon is one thing, but setting up major plot points that would ultimately harm their mission is another. there would be no reason to send a direwolf, that happened to be pregnant with just the right number of pups and then have it get killed by a stag unless the agent was planning on influencing the game of thrones. the forethought of presenting said symbolism, and then taking action to set it in to motion does nothing to help the ultimate goal of teaching bran to help fight the others. A living Ned would put the unified north in a much better position to resist the incoming invasion. bloodraven skinchanging the boar that kiled bob set in motion the events that greatly weakened the north and westeros as a whole. 

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On 8/20/2016 at 7:44 AM, Dorian Martell said:

My issue is not with who has what powers, but how the story plays out. Bloodraven skinchanging a crow, or bran whispering to theon is one thing, but setting up major plot points that would ultimately harm their mission is another. there would be no reason to send a direwolf, that happened to be pregnant with just the right number of pups and then have it get killed by a stag unless the agent was planning on influencing the game of thrones. the forethought of presenting said symbolism, and then taking action to set it in to motion does nothing to help the ultimate goal of teaching bran to help fight the others. A living Ned would put the unified north in a much better position to resist the incoming invasion. bloodraven skinchanging the boar that kiled bob set in motion the events that greatly weakened the north and westeros as a whole. 

Bob even says on his death bed that the gods sent that boar to kill him because he wanted to kill the targ girl!

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People say all sorts of stupid things when they're about to die, especially in front of the one and only person who warned them against doing something heinous. Robert *knew* it was wrong to send assassins after Daenerys, and did it anyway...

(...And it was a big decision for him...

...Which tells me that he has NOT been sending assassins after Viserys before. And nor has Jon Arryn, who apparently also counselled against it...

...So, just who HAS been keeping Daenerys and Viserys on the run all this time?)

Anyway, when you know you've done something evil, and you sustain a mortal injury shortly afterwards which doesn't even have the decency to be a quick death, he was a good couple of days dying - one does have a tendency to ascribe things to the gods, one or many. There is absolutely no need for it to have *actually* been the intervention of any god, or indeed of any outside agency beyond what we already know - Robert getting stinking drunk, thanks to Lancel spiking his wine (at Cersei's prompting), and ordering his own men to stand back because that was the sort of thing Robert did, as we have seen earlier: he wanted to fight in the tourney melee, and only couldn't do so because his armour didn't fit, and that gave Barristan and Ned a way to persuade him out of it, not because of the danger to himself but because of the thought that the rest of the fighters would have been craven enough to let him win even though he was a fat stinking drunk (which, deep down, he knew himself to be, and had just had it proved because he no longer fitted his armour).

He wanted to prove he still "had it" and wasn't as far gone as he had obviously shown to Ned - hence ordering his men to stand back. He might still have failed if he'd been sober - boars are dangerous - but he might have killed it and been unhurt. And that was the Lannisters' best chance of seeing Robert dead in a way that couldn't be traced to them: an arrow or a dagger, an outright murder, would have been traceable.

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10 hours ago, JLE said:

People say all sorts of stupid things when they're about to die, especially in front of the one and only person who warned them against doing something heinous. Robert *knew* it was wrong to send assassins after Daenerys, and did it anyway...

(...And it was a big decision for him...

...Which tells me that he has NOT been sending assassins after Viserys before. And nor has Jon Arryn, who apparently also counselled against it...

...So, just who HAS been keeping Daenerys and Viserys on the run all this time?)

Anyway, when you know you've done something evil, and you sustain a mortal injury shortly afterwards which doesn't even have the decency to be a quick death, he was a good couple of days dying - one does have a tendency to ascribe things to the gods, one or many. There is absolutely no need for it to have *actually* been the intervention of any god, or indeed of any outside agency beyond what we already know - Robert getting stinking drunk, thanks to Lancel spiking his wine (at Cersei's prompting), and ordering his own men to stand back because that was the sort of thing Robert did, as we have seen earlier: he wanted to fight in the tourney melee, and only couldn't do so because his armour didn't fit, and that gave Barristan and Ned a way to persuade him out of it, not because of the danger to himself but because of the thought that the rest of the fighters would have been craven enough to let him win even though he was a fat stinking drunk (which, deep down, he knew himself to be, and had just had it proved because he no longer fitted his armour).

He wanted to prove he still "had it" and wasn't as far gone as he had obviously shown to Ned - hence ordering his men to stand back. He might still have failed if he'd been sober - boars are dangerous - but he might have killed it and been unhurt. And that was the Lannisters' best chance of seeing Robert dead in a way that couldn't be traced to them: an arrow or a dagger, an outright murder, would have been traceable.

Youre most likely right but I still love the idea of the old gods playing a hand.

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