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Bakker XLV: Optimal Tip-to-Tip Damnation (no TGO Spoilers)


lokisnow

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6 hours ago, Caligula_K3 said:

Question for more serious Bakker fans who've read the Great Ordeal:

I'm a pretty casual Bakker fan- I read The Prince of Nothing all pretty close together around the time Thousandfold Thought was released, and then read The Judging Eye and White Luck Warrior as they came out (and enjoyed them less than the original trilogy). At this point, it's been five years since I last read a Bakker book and over ten since I started this series, and I've never been involved in discussing them. So... Is it worthwhile to read the Great Ordeal on its own? Or, is it better to wait until next year for the Unholy Consult to read both at once, hopefully having re-read the whole series by that point? Especially if, as people in this thread are suggesting, Unholy Consult may actually not get released next year... If The Great Ordeal feels like one half of a long book (like A Feast for Crows), I'm not sure I want a long wait before there's any payoff, especially since I'll probably forget what's happened in the meantime. Thoughts?

The what has come before at the beginning of the great ordeal is an incredible piece of writing and will be a perfect refresher.

this book was structured as a self contained novel, every story arc has a dramatically satisfying ending and you'll be excited for the next book, it's very akin to,storm of swords in that respect.  It suffers from none of the weaknesses that the combined AFFC/ADWD suffer from, and let's be honest, combined they only comprise two thirds of a complete story and still feel woefully incomplete compared to any of the first three books.  You can rest assured that the great ordeal is not a disaster like the Martin books, it is a very satisfying read.

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10 hours ago, Sci-2 said:

well to be clear it's not that TGO is bad,

it's just that AFFC is more complete, the characters sound legitimately different, there are less random earthquakes, etc.

Affc is more complete? Characters are definitely more distinct than bakkers, "six variations on me" approach to characterizations, but neither book is remotely complete and both are hampered by repetitive mutiple chapter digressions with no point nor function. And ive read them three times, they really fall apart on repetition and it becomes more and more infuriating that nothing is resolved in either book, everything in every arc is just left flaciddly flapping in the wind.

 

Credit where it is due though, about 45% of AFFC and 65% of ADWD are amazing stuff, but overall the books do not live up to their strongest elements nor their series brethren. Martin is a massively superior writer, or was, once, but Bakker does at least complete his mid series novels.

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Thanks for the advice, everyone. I'll buy a copy when the local bookstores get it.

Though Larrytheimp, if you're serious about shipping it, I'd be happy to take your copy off your hands- I'd of course pay for shipping. But if there are Bakker fans out there who want this book a lot more desperately than me, please feel free to give it to them!

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9 hours ago, lokisnow said:

Affc is more complete? Characters are definitely more distinct than bakkers, "six variations on me" approach to characterizations, but neither book is remotely complete and both are hampered by repetitive mutiple chapter digressions with no point nor function. And ive read them three times, they really fall apart on repetition and it becomes more and more infuriating that nothing is resolved in either book, everything in every arc is just left flaciddly flapping in the wind.

Yeah, I think this isn't remotely true at all. Cersei's arc is absolutely well dealt with by ADWD, and is mostly good by AFFC. Sam's arc is complete in AFFC. Brienne has a very good arc overall in AFFC, and while it ends in a stupid cliffhanger where it ends makes a lot of sense. 

ADWD is much better at this. Jon's arc is thematically perfect, Theon has a great climax and denouement, Arya has a good start for the next adventures, and we get some great beats along the way. Cersei is really good too. If you're going to argue that Theon and Jon don't end things, you might as well argue that Tyrion and Arya's ending in ASOS wasn't good either. It's silly. The Stannis ending sucked, and the Meereen storyline has always sucked (though at least Dany ended up out of the palace) but that's not the whole book, and Jon's death is far better as an ending than anything in TGO by a very large margin in both clarity and resolution. 

9 hours ago, lokisnow said:

Credit where it is due though, about 45% of AFFC and 65% of ADWD are amazing stuff, but overall the books do not live up to their strongest elements nor their series brethren. Martin is a massively superior writer, or was, once, but Bakker does at least complete his mid series novels.

This isn't the spoiler topic, but I completely disagree with this. At the end of the book only one storyline is remotely closed and the rest are left with absurd cliffhangers that are ambiguous as to the actual lives of main characters. Another storyline appears to have ended a chapter before and now we're getting into a second act - and that's the actual ending of the book. There are a lot of revelations, but from a narrative perspective this didn't feel at all like anything that could hang together well for me.

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Some of this is all fair. I got incredibly bitter about the books for the first time last year when I finished going through the series again. Too much time, fifteen years, have passed for me to still be okay with the fact that we have two incomplete books. But really my reaction was probably about going directly from storm of swords into the monster twofer and being defeated by the experience of them all together as a series. I went from possibly being more thrilled than I've ever been after going through a storm of swords again and really appreciating on a new level for its incredible craft on storytelling to ending with nothing but disappointment, frustration and ashes in the mouth. And now it's been eleven years since I read AFFC, really, really. Really. Fuck. I spent most of that time defending the series and on rereading the actual things I'd been defending it didn't seem remotely worth defending. I'm like a Former republican defending supply side economics, it doesn't work, never did, but it makes some people feel all the feels. But I don't feel the feels anymore. 

The great ordeal has four narrative arcs, all four of them have well crafted climax final chapters that also set up the next volume very well. But none are the childish brienne screaming a word I'm not telling you type of nonsense, they're more like the Jon snow getting  Caesared, resolutions, at least to me. 

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4 hours ago, Dickwad Poster #3784 said:

Yeah, I think this isn't remotely true at all. Cersei's arc is absolutely well dealt with by ADWD, and is mostly good by AFFC. Sam's arc is complete in AFFC. Brienne has a very good arc overall in AFFC, and while it ends in a stupid cliffhanger where it ends makes a lot of sense. 

ADWD is much better at this. Jon's arc is thematically perfect, Theon has a great climax and denouement, Arya has a good start for the next adventures, and we get some great beats along the way. Cersei is really good too. If you're going to argue that Theon and Jon don't end things, you might as well argue that Tyrion and Arya's ending in ASOS wasn't good either. It's silly. The Stannis ending sucked, and the Meereen storyline has always sucked (though at least Dany ended up out of the palace) but that's not the whole book, and Jon's death is far better as an ending than anything in TGO by a very large margin in both clarity and resolution. 

This isn't the spoiler topic, but I completely disagree with this. At the end of the book only one storyline is remotely closed and the rest are left with absurd cliffhangers that are ambiguous as to the actual lives of main characters. Another storyline appears to have ended a chapter before and now we're getting into a second act - and that's the actual ending of the book. There are a lot of revelations, but from a narrative perspective this didn't feel at all like anything that could hang together well for me.

Y'all are seriously arguing about the difference between the second-to-last volume of one series and the middle books of another? What's the legitimacy of comparison here?

Personally, I'd much rather re-read TGO than Martin's middle books. GRRM is superior (perhaps) in certain storytelling facets and character development but his prose is pretty meat-and-potatoes and AFFC and ADWD are really, really flabby in sections. To say nothing of the divergent ambition between the series.

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On 20/07/2016 at 4:45 PM, themerchant said:

I'm pretty sure it will be published next year.

The Great Ordeal was unaffected by the hysteria it would be "unpublishable"

I'm sure TUC will also be unaffected by "is it even written".

We could run a betting book on publication. I rarely bet but sometimes the market is ripe for the picking.

 

Grim tidings podcast last night, final draft just has some finishing touches to TUC, be finished before end of summer.

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On July 21, 2016 at 7:16 PM, larrytheimp said:

Anybody want a (mostly) free copy of TGO?  I forgot that I drunkenly ordered a copy from Amazon.  Anyway it arrived today.  I'll ship it anywhere if you reimburse me for the shipping.  Otherwise I'll donate to the next Cub Scouts book drive.

As a poor college student I'm always down for a good deal! If you haven't given it away just yet I'd be happy to accept your offer!

ETA: I see Caligula_K3 has gotten ahead of me, ah well. I hope you enjoy the read!

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