Bakker XLV: Optimal Tip-to-Tip Damnation (no TGO Spoilers)

[Arakan]

On 17.11.2016 at 2:17 PM, Let's Get Kraken said:

As you say, I've had the reverse experience. I've been following Berserk almost religiously for more than ten years now, and just started reading TSA last month. I think both series are brilliant, but I do prefer Berserk, which is my longstanding favorite fantasy series. Of course, I haven't even finished all of TSA yet, so who knows where I will stand when all caught up.

It's interesting that you mention this, because I was just thinking last week that TSA reminded me a bit of Berserk. That scene at the end of TWP especially made me think of what happened to poor Casca during the Eclipse. The Inchoroi was even described a bit similar physically to Femto. Plus the Godhand and the No-God both like to chill inside whirlwinds. It made me wonder if perhaps Bakker read Berserk during the early stages of writing TSA.

Both series are re-imaginings of the two major fantasy archetypes (Lord of the Rings for TSA and Conan for Berserk). Both are also far and away darker and more disturbing than any other fantasy series I've ever read (and I've read a lot of fantasy). Both explore the dark side of sexuality, and have all sorts of creepy, phallic monsters that just scare the shit out of me. And really what stands out to me with both are the intellectually rich metaphysics and the vast, sprawling worlds that you can just lose yourself in, even upon multiple rereads. And yeah, Kellhus did remind me a lot of Griffith, though the former is more more developed in his intellect and the way he manipulates people.

Of course they also both suffer some of the same weaknesses. From what I gather, one of the major criticisms of Bakker's work is the way that he writes female characters (as I believe has been discussed on these forums quite a bit). While I think that the women of Berserk are more well rounded than some of Bakker's females, it kind of disturbs me that Casca gets stripped down and nearly raped something like a dozen times throughout the series. Plus I'm never a fan of writing that has all of the female characters develop an infatuation with the male protagonist the way Slan, Schierke, Casca, and Farnese all do with Guts. At least in TSA this serves the narrative.

The storytelling itself is very different, as one would expect across different mediums. Though Berserk has always read more to me like a western fantasy novel than what I typically expect from manga or comics. Berserk has more humor (or at least does it better) and is more action intense, while TSA has a more introspective tone that lingers on the heavily philosophical aspects of Bakker's writing. I found Berserk to be more emotionally evocative, while TSA made me think more. Let's say Berserk is the Psukhe to Bakker's Gnosis.

TLDR,

Yes.

Great post and analysis

[Callan S.]

On 12/8/2016 at 6:16 AM, Arakan said:

Let's say Berserk is the Psukhe to Bakker's Gnosis.

Nice

[Arakan]

Hey people, just wanted to thank the old guard in here because of you I started to read PON/TAE last year and it was a present from heaven. Setting-wise the best fantasy in a long long time and overall I love the series. 

Without the interesting discussions on a high intellectual level in the RSB threads I would never in my life have heard of those books. 

[.H.]

Even though I personally find Reddit incomprehensibly formatted, some others here might be interested in a group read of tDtCB: Reddit Group ReRead

[Larry of the Lawn]

An article on Ecosexuals reveals that Cnaiur might not be the only one fucking the ground.  Happy Ent, it may interest you to know the movement includes some Dendrophiles as well.

[Werthead]

Cover art for The Unholy Consult.

Publication date confirmed: 4 July 2017.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Werthead said:

Cover art for The Unholy Consult.

Publication date confirmed: 4 July 2017.

Thanks, Wert!  

Pretty cool if these last two books really do come out bang-bang in back-to-back years.  I remember saying during the news of the split that it's all good as long as TUC is really done and coming shortly.

[Hello World]

Hmm. For some reason that cover seems familiar...

[Calibandar]

It's probably because that cover art was revealed a few weeks ago already..

[Hello World]

Was it? I thought it was because it's the same cover of the last book except with a blue/purple tint instead of red.

[Calibandar]

They are all very much alike anyway, yeah.

Could be much more inspired, most people seem to agree.

[Callan S.]

Secret spoiler title is 'And everything actually turns out for the best!'

Who is the tattooed guy in the cover art?

[Arakan]

I am really looking forward to TUC...RSB seems to be able to do what only few fantasy authors can do: bringing a grand series to a worthy end. At least this is what I am hoping. 

 

[Werthead]

I think it's more likely that the last series will be called something like The No-God, and will confirm that Kellhus himself will become the prime-moving force of the resurrected No-God (as Nau-Cayuti appears to have been the first time around).

I am interested to see how much closure The Unholy Consult gives us. Bakker did say it could be read as the end of the saga but then there is clearly the last series to come as well, so I can only presume that if it can be read as the ending, it'll be a horrible "Everybody dies" kind of ending.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

2 hours ago, Werthead said:

I think it's more likely that the last series will be called something like The No-God, and will confirm that Kellhus himself will become the prime-moving force of the resurrected No-God (as Nau-Cayuti appears to have been the first time around).

I am interested to see how much closure The Unholy Consult gives us. Bakker did say it could be read as the end of the saga but then there is clearly the last series to come as well, so I can only presume that if it can be read as the ending, it'll be a horrible "Everybody dies" kind of ending.

No, we know from passages throughout TAE, that the Great Ordeal becomes holy.

[Larry of the Lawn]

Warning, TGO spoiler regarding Kel as the No-God

I think  Kelmomas is going to be the no-god, and that's why yatwer was blind to him.  Because he is the eschaton.  I take it with a grain of salt, but Bakker said in the feedback thread that yatwer wasn't blind to ajokli.  she seems to be aware of Kellhus, so my guess is she was blind to Kelmomas, and that's why the White Luck Warrior fucked up.

[kuenjato]

6 hours ago, Werthead said:

I think it's more likely that the last series will be called something like The No-God, and will confirm that Kellhus himself will become the prime-moving force of the resurrected No-God (as Nau-Cayuti appears to have been the first time around).

I am interested to see how much closure The Unholy Consult gives us. Bakker did say it could be read as the end of the saga but then there is clearly the last series to come as well, so I can only presume that if it can be read as the ending, it'll be a horrible "Everybody dies" kind of ending.

I think it will be called "the God of All", as it has nice symmetry with the first series and that's about what I can fathom of Kellhus's overall plan - to use the No-God technology to supplant the God, kick the 99 to the funnybook gutter, and thus rewrite the damnation-as-dinner rules once and for all.

[Arakan]

14 hours ago, Werthead said:

I think it's more likely that the last series will be called something like The No-God, and will confirm that Kellhus himself will become the prime-moving force of the resurrected No-God (as Nau-Cayuti appears to have been the first time around).

I am interested to see how much closure The Unholy Consult gives us. Bakker did say it could be read as the end of the saga but then there is clearly the last series to come as well, so I can only presume that if it can be read as the ending, it'll be a horrible "Everybody dies" kind of ending.

I don't know. As far as I am aware, it's still not even clear if there will be a 3rd series at all and that with TUC, Bakker will have finished the story he originally wanted to tell. In this sense TUC must give sufficient closure. 

[Werthead]

It should be noted that Bakker's idea of "sufficient closure" may be at extreme variance with other people's definition

[Arakan]

5 hours ago, Werthead said:

It should be noted that Bakker's idea of "sufficient closure" may be at extreme variance with other people's definition

True enough . Though I could live with a few loose ends or an ending on the rather bitter spectrum of possible bittersweet endings . IMO that would befit the general tone and atmosphere of the series. 

Anyway, I am of the opinion that every ending is the beginning of something, for the worse or for the better. Thus the cycle always continues. 

Honestly, I cannot wait to read, how it all plays out in TUC. Basically EVERYTHING is possible...