Bakker XLV: Optimal Tip-to-Tip Damnation (no TGO Spoilers)

[Larry of the Lawn]

2 hours ago, Callan S. said:

Looking past as to whether this is even possible, where did it even happen? I mean,

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there is a gay sorting hat, I guess.

 

Nilgiccas and Oinaral too, and I think there was mention of others.

[Callan S.]

Disciple of the Dog has three instances of the main character farting over the entire book - a reviewer described the character as having uncontrollable flatulence.

I think there must be something magic about the number three

[Hello World]

Three times in one book is too much farting... especially when the author mistakenly thinks he's being funny.

[Xereaux]

On 1/4/2017 at 8:38 AM, Valandil said:

3. Is the Anagogis something new that appeared post-apocalypse or did it exist before, coincidentally with the Gnosis?

Ooh, I have this one. Without having my books for reference, I can't quote exactly where it's spelled out, but I believe it's in the TTT's glossary.

The Anagogis is the form of sorcery that all humans originally practiced. It was present in the Eanna before the Breaking of the Gates, at the very least. It wasn't until the Tutelage that the Quya taught the Gnosis to the Norsirai schools that humans had any form of sorcery other than the Anagogis.

(The Psukhe, on the other hand, did appear post-apocalypse with Fane, at least as a widespread knowledge. I seem to remember Titirga having hints of it in the False Sun, but nothing concrete.)

[Valandil]

The TTT glossary entry on anagogis is three lines about meaning related to x. At least my copy is. Where'd you get that description I wonder? 

[Xereaux]

11 hours ago, Valandil said:

The TTT glossary entry on anagogis is three lines about meaning related to x. At least my copy is. Where'd you get that description I wonder? 

I just found it; it's in the "Gnosis" entry in the glossary (page 445 of my hardback copy).

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The Gnosis was first developed by the Nonmen Quya, who imparted it to the early Norsirai Anagogic sorcerers during the Nonman Tutelage, 555-825.

While this doesn't exactly say that the Anagogis is the original sorcery practiced by humanity from the time of the Tusk and on, I'd say that that's more likely than any alternative interpretations.

[Xereaux]

On 1/4/2017 at 8:38 AM, Valandil said:

2. If the non-men can breed successfully with humans, as is described, why turn to en-masse homosexuality after the womb-plague hit (or am I interpreting that wrong)? Is it only male human to female non-man that can result in successful progeny? It's not like they didn't abuse the Halaroi in other ways!

I can't answer why the post-Womb Plague Nonmen didn't turn to having sex with human women rather than with each other (or even whether such a thing did or did not happen!), but the two instances of human/Nonman children we have in the text shows that both male Nonman/female human and female Nonman/male human pairings are capable of producing children. Cimoira was the daughter of the human Sirwitta and an unnamed (as far as I know) Nonman woman (as per the Cuno-Inchoroi Wars entry of the glossary, page 433), while Anasurimbor Sanna-Jephera was the son of the Nonman Jiricet and the human Anasurimbor Omindalea.

The Rape of Omindalea isn't in the glossary, even though it's referred to in the Nonman Tutelage entry. It apparently was cut by accident, but can be found in the original Three Seas forum in a post by Bakker:

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The Rape of Omindalea. Jiricet, a Nonman Siqû to the God-King Nincarû-Telesser II (787-828), rapes Omindalea (808-825), first daughter of Sanna-Neorjë (772-858) of the house of Anasûrimbor in 824, and then flees to Ishterebinth. When Nil’giccas refuses to return Jiricet to Ûmerau, Nicarû-Telesser II expels all Nonmen from the Ûmeri Empire. Omindalea conceives by the union and dies bearing Anasûrimbor Sanna-Jephera (825-1032), called ‘Twoheart.’ After a house-slave conceives by him, Sanna-Jephera is adopted by Sanna-Neorjë as his heir.

 

[Valandil]

1 hour ago, Xereaux said:

I can't answer why the post-Womb Plague Nonmen didn't turn to having sex with human women rather than with each other (or even whether such a thing did or did not happen!), but the two instances of human/Nonman children we have in the text shows that both male Nonman/female human and female Nonman/male human pairings are capable of producing children. Cimoira was the daughter of the human Sirwitta and an unnamed (as far as I know) Nonman woman (as per the Cuno-Inchoroi Wars entry of the glossary, page 433), while Anasurimbor Sanna-Jephera was the son of the Nonman Jiricet and the human Anasurimbor Omindalea.

The Rape of Omindalea isn't in the glossary, even though it's referred to in the Nonman Tutelage entry. It apparently was cut by accident, but can be found in the original Three Seas forum in a post by Bakker:

 

Thanks for that, I'd never read it. So the non men could have tried to continue their race with human women. Wonder why they didn't. Might explain their reaction to serwes singing. She has non man blood 

[Callan S.]

Ah, the two heart. Have to wonder if that relates to Kelmomas carrying a second soul. And as a Anasurimbor, those genes have been baked into the Dunyain for two thousand years. And it's always funny that Kellhus got crucified for not being a prince, when technically he is.

Have to say though, why would conception with human women count as continuing the nonmen race? Serwe clearly doesn't look like a nonman. It'd be like horses continuing their race by siring mules.

[unJon]

Is Two Heart also what the protagonist of the last Atrocity Tale was called?

[Larry of the Lawn]

5 minutes ago, unJon said:

Is Two Heart also what the protagonist of the last Atrocity Tale was called?

Yeah I think so

[Andorion]

I have just finished the Prince of Nothing trilogy. I have not read any of the Aspect Emperor books. 

Without spoiling me, is it possible to talk about what the Thousandfold Thought actually is?

I was discussing this with a friend on another forum and we agreed that it was the ability of the Dunyain to achieve perfect comprehension of causality and thus to step outside it. 

[Xereaux]

16 hours ago, Valandil said:

So the non men could have tried to continue their race with human women. Wonder why they didn't.

Yeah, I've wondered too. Given the difficulty in producing viable Dunyain/worldborn children, maybe viable Nonmen/human children are even rarer. Two examples (that we know of) in several millenia of records could mean that there are hundreds of thousands of failed conceptions/pregnancies/births that we don't know of.

15 hours ago, Callan S. said:

Have to say though, why would conception with human women count as continuing the nonmen race? Serwe clearly doesn't look like a nonman. It'd be like horses continuing their race by siring mules.

Yeah, I've wondered too. If conceiving human/Nonman children is not super-rare, I suppose that you could back-cross the female children back into the Nonmen lines and breed children with increasing portions of Nonman genes each generation. It'd be like how scientists are trying to resurrect the American Chestnut from the ravages of the Chestnut Blight or the American Elm from Dutch Elm Disease...only with more atrocity and damnation. But I think that hybrid children are too rare. Other explanations for why not might include that the Womb Plague negatively affected male Nonman fertility in addition to killing female Nonmen, or that human/Nonmen children are infertile with Nonmen (but fertile with humans), but my money is on the first explanation.

[unJon]

3 hours ago, Andorion said:

I have just finished the Prince of Nothing trilogy. I have not read any of the Aspect Emperor books. 

Without spoiling me, is it possible to talk about what the Thousandfold Thought actually is?

I was discussing this with a friend on another forum and we agreed that it was the ability of the Dunyain to achieve perfect comprehension of causality and thus to step outside it. 

It's like a meme or program that runs on people. Its first goal is to unite the Three Seas by combining Jnrithism and Faninry into worship of Kellhus. Point being to prepare to be able to defeat the Consult. There's more to it and it comes up in the next trilogy also. 

[Kalbear]

Also, no one actually knows what the thousand fold thought is definitively. It has never been stated directly and there are a lot of competing theories.

[LuckyCharms]

It depends on who we are talking about.

For Moe it is rather cut and dry, the Thousandfold Thought is his plan to unite humanity to defeat the Consult. If the Consult resurrect the No-God no more babies will be born, so the Dunyain won't be able to continue their eugenics project.

For Kellhus, it is a bit more complicated, the Thought may have evolved to something else entirely, a tool to achieve the Absolute/Transcendence/Apotheosis or whatever. Or he's gone insane, as Moenghus declared.

[Kalbear]

And that's assuming you are taking what moe is saying to Kellhus as fact and not manipulation.

Nothing is certain.

[unJon]

1 hour ago, Kalbear said:

Also, no one actually knows what the thousand fold thought is definitively. It has never been stated directly and there are a lot of competing theories.

Sort of. In TGO we get:

A Kellus POV with a mention of TTT in his own thoughts. We should be able to trust that information.

[Darth Richard II]

5 hours ago, unJon said:

Sort of. In TGO we get:

 

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A Kellus POV with a mention of TTT in his own thoughts. We should be able to trust that information.

 

No, no we really shoudn't.

[unJon]

23 hours ago, larrytheimp said:

Yeah I think so

I may reread this story under the assumption that the historical description of a Two Heart refers to a half non-man. See if it gives any insight.