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Bakker XLV: Optimal Tip-to-Tip Damnation (no TGO Spoilers)


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Well this is all second hand but from what kalbear said he flat out lied(and admitted as such) when he said he had read TUC before it was split. He also admitted here he lied about certain things regarding POVs in the new book. That I remember happening. Seriously, don't let crazed fanboys be your public voice on the Internet. At this point if it doesn't come straight from Bakkers blog id assume it's all bullshit.

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1 hour ago, Darth Richard II said:

Well this is all second hand but from what kalbear said he flat out lied(and admitted as such) when he said he had read TUC before it was split. He also admitted here he lied about certain things regarding POVs in the new book. That I remember happening. Seriously, don't let crazed fanboys be your public voice on the Internet. At this point if it doesn't come straight from Bakkers blog id assume it's all bullshit.

So basically what's under contention is whether Madness lied in order to motivate fans to contact Overlook?

Well that and whether "Madness" exists. I'm increasingly beginning to wonder...though a picture of Madness w/ Bakker could put most doubting to rest...

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Ha, yeah pretty much. Positive side: I actually liked the book. I was worried some of my time on here may have clouded my enjoyment of it but asude from the ocassionly OH NO SCOTT BAKKER moment I liked it. 

In fact that's how I'm going to rate books now, by there OH NO AUTHOR moments. 

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Madness got a manuscript called The great ordeal book 3 of 3, he believed it was the finished piece for Aspect Emperor. At some point after this he found out about Bakkers plan to split the "last book" which he couldn't reveal. He had already said he had read TUC so it was either come back and say he hadn't begging more questions or he could continue "the lie" he had.

this is my understanding of the subject, however i've only read that thread once, the folk who like to discuss the people reading the book will have probably spent much more time looking into it.

EDIT: Som didn't get his copy til way after Madness after agreeing to do the artwork.

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Ah, OK. Interesting. Madness talked about how TUC 'finished' the story. I received my copy today (late, but whatever) and have read half of it already... can't see how it comes close to 'finishing' anything, by this point, though I am enjoying it immensely.

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10 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

per Scott, he also HASNT finished it, so, who the fuck knows at this point.

Can you provide a link? Preferably to something that I have not already covered in my post above.

I believe my summary is exactly where we are right now.

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38 minutes ago, Calibandar said:

Can you provide a link? Preferably to something that I have not already covered in my post above.

I believe my summary is exactly where we are right now.

Sorry, it's been discussed multiple places. Bakker isn't done, that's for certain. I'm not sure where the 4 more chapters was stated - I think on his blog.

Madness flat out stated he lied. He did not get a book that said 3 of 3, either. It simply stated book 3 of TAE. 

I don't think it had anything to do with the overlook pressure - by that point the lying was over a year old. I also don't know how anyone could have read this and thought that the book concludes anything. 

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thanks for all the clarification, folks. Seems I have to wait for book 4 to be finished before I start looking for a release date.

I'll cut the publishers some slack as it initially seemed as if it was there plan to split the book but now it seems to have been Scott's all along which explains the issues with contracts too.

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8 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

Ha, yeah pretty much. Positive side: I actually liked the book. I was worried some of my time on here may have clouded my enjoyment of it but asude from the ocassionly OH NO SCOTT BAKKER moment I liked it. 

In fact that's how I'm going to rate books now, by there OH NO AUTHOR moments. 

is this following on the awesome OH JOHN RINGO NO thing?

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2 hours ago, Dickwad Poster #3784 said:

Sorry, it's been discussed multiple places. Bakker isn't done, that's for certain. I'm not sure where the 4 more chapters was stated - I think on his blog.

Madness flat out stated he lied. He did not get a book that said 3 of 3, either. It simply stated book 3 of TAE. 

I don't think it had anything to do with the overlook pressure - by that point the lying was over a year old. I also don't know how anyone could have read this and thought that the book concludes anything. 

Had madness admitted that the book he received was TGO as it is now? 

From the information given, it seems RSB is basically done with TUC, but is now in the process of rewriting and adding stuff. From my perspective as an amateur writer, this isn't all that unusual. I completed a trilogy earlier this summer, and while the first two books were basically written from beginning to end, I'll probably add around 5-10k words to the third volume when I eventually begin rewrites/edits. The book is finished--the narrative flows as I wish and the last scenes are complete--but there are ideas/themes/character arcs that could be further developed or enhanced. It wouldn't surprise me if TUC is in this same state, especially given how RSB has detailed his process (not always writing chronologically per the book's structure).

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1 hour ago, kuenjato said:

Had madness admitted that the book he received was TGO as it is now? 

 

Yeah, he has. Here's the thread where he mentions it.

Quote

I have not read TUC-proper. I received a draft entitled The Great Ordeal, Book Three of The Aspect-Emperor. I believed it was the third and final book in The Aspect-Emperor series and cognitive closure made it seem as though TGO could have finished TAE as a trilogy. The choice I made in my dealings with the fandom after Bakker invited you to query me was one to betray either Bakker's trust as I saw it (because at the time of my reading the draft - Summer '14 - he had not explicit revealed that the manuscript was already split and he was simultaneously working on two books in the hope that his publishers would renegotiate) or troll the fandom. I chose the latter. All the commentary I have made regarding the "Unmentionable" and in the "To Madness..." thread reflect my reading TGO alone - specifically comments made regarding splitting the manuscript and the narrative completing the arc of TAE referred to TGO before I was informed of TUC-proper.

 

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1 hour ago, sologdin said:

is this following on the awesome OH JOHN RINGO NO thing?

It is! And when I was reading TGO, as soon as I hit one point I mentioned it. It's memorable and bad enough that you'll recognize it immediately. 

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4 hours ago, Dickwad Poster #3784 said:

Sorry, it's been discussed multiple places. Bakker isn't done, that's for certain. I'm not sure where the 4 more chapters was stated - I think on his blog.

Madness flat out stated he lied. He did not get a book that said 3 of 3, either. It simply stated book 3 of TAE. 

I don't think it had anything to do with the overlook pressure - by that point the lying was over a year old. I also don't know how anyone could have read this and thought that the book concludes anything. 

Hey Kal,

There's a misconception going on here. I wasn't saying, hey Caustic richard, provide me proof of what Madness has read. I know he's read TGO and not TUC. I don't think Madness has anything to do with the fact that as far as we have again been told recently, TUC is basically done, plus scheduled for next year. The only comment Scott has made is that he is still polishing it up and adding and subtracting things here and there, and that the only thing requiring serious work, is the glossary. 

The "4 added chapters" comment is actually Scott's response to my question over at Second Apocalypse, when I asked about the size of TUC. Those 4 chapters have been added since his initial draft of the big manuscript that's now been split. It's a reference to a question I asked him a year or two ago, when the answer was about 400 pages, plus glossary, which now looks to be, 500 plus the glossary ( 4 chapters is roughly 100 pages on average in Bakker's books).

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Calibandar said:

Hey Kal,

There's a misconception going on here. I wasn't saying, hey Caustic richard, provide me proof of what Madness has read. I know he's read TGO and not TUC. I don't think Madness has anything to do with the fact that as far as we have again been told recently, TUC is basically done, plus scheduled for next year. The only comment Scott has made is that he is still polishing it up and adding and subtracting things here and there, and that the only thing requiring serious work, is the glossary. 

The "4 added chapters" comment is actually Scott's response to my question over at Second Apocalypse, when I asked about the size of TUC. Those 4 chapters have been added since his initial draft of the big manuscript that's now been split. It's a reference to a question I asked him a year or two ago, when the answer was about 400 pages, plus glossary, which now looks to be, 500 plus the glossary ( 4 chapters is roughly 100 pages on average in Bakker's books).

I guess I simply don't entirely believe it. 

Bakker has stated for a couple years now that he had delivered everything to Overlook. Given that Madness and Som got a manuscript for TGO and not TUC, that appears to be at the very least up in the air as to the truthfulness of it. If Bakker is adding 4 additional chapters after the manuscript was 'submitted' - which again, appears to be in doubt - it's clear that a final manuscript for TUC hasn't been submitted. And 4 chapters is a pretty hefty size - that would be 1/4th of TGO roughly. Or what, 30k+ words?

There's also no indication that it's 'scheduled' for anything. Given that it hasn't been submitted for final review or editing yet, I'd be shocked if  they've scheduled a single thing or even thought about it. 

Now, it's certainly possible that Bakker is completely truthful about this, but from what I can tell that's pretty up in the air. Bakker well knew why Overlook was sitting on the book, after all, and the idea that it was handed in and then sat on 'for no reason' is obviously bunk. 

I had already had suspicions that TUC wouldn't be out next year, but this makes me think even more so that it's not going to be ready. Of course I could be wrong.

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I don't have much doubt it'll be out next year... but...

I do hope the editing/copy editing is better for volume 4. There are a surprising number of mistakes in TGO that I've seen--omitted words, strangely positioned commas, unnecessary repetitions. Much moreso than the other books.

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None of the grammar and spelling errors from the "uncorrected proof" of the ARC were fixed in the slightest.  The official publication is basically the rough draft of the ARC.  All the ARC readers, including myself, had a pow wow on TSA, codifying every formatting issue and grammar problem we could find.  Madness said he sent the corrections to Bakker and Overlook, but none of it was changed.  We were doing that back in the beginning of May.  Apparently, it'll all be fixed for the UK publication which is much later in the year.  But yeah, it's super fucking shameful—the state of the official NA publication.

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2 hours ago, Dickwad Poster #3784 said:

I guess I simply don't entirely believe it. 

Bakker has stated for a couple years now that he had delivered everything to Overlook. Given that Madness and Som got a manuscript for TGO and not TUC, that appears to be at the very least up in the air as to the truthfulness of it. If Bakker is adding 4 additional chapters after the manuscript was 'submitted' - which again, appears to be in doubt - it's clear that a final manuscript for TUC hasn't been submitted. And 4 chapters is a pretty hefty size - that would be 1/4th of TGO roughly. Or what, 30k+ words?

There's also no indication that it's 'scheduled' for anything. Given that it hasn't been submitted for final review or editing yet, I'd be shocked if  they've scheduled a single thing or even thought about it. 

Now, it's certainly possible that Bakker is completely truthful about this, but from what I can tell that's pretty up in the air.

Well that's where we differ, I believe what Bakker says about TUC and you don't.

If we can't take the author himself as gospel anymore on the subject of whether or not a book is finished, well, there's really no one who you can believe. It's like GRRM posting that Winds of Winter is done on his blog and you say "don't think so dude, you've been wrong before".

What I will say is that Scott has been consistent about the state of TUC ever since he announced it was done. I believe he's posted more than a year ago that he handed TUC in, the initial manuscript that is, which he now appears to be revising. Scott just recently publicly confirmed that it will come out in July or August. 

What Madness got was clearly just a portion of the whole story. And I am not even sure that Madness got that manuscript after Scott publically said TUC was done. In fact i'm quite sure Madness had read the TGO manuscript before Scott finished TUC's manuscript. Where the confusion comes in is that Madness said he had read all of it, and advised a split, which he now admits wasn't true; he did not get the whole story.

As for the 4 chapters, I once asked that if TGO was about 500 pages, how much was left for TUC and he thought 400 pages might be right. He wasn't done working on it by then and has since added 4 more chapters. 

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