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Bakker XLV: Optimal Tip-to-Tip Damnation (no TGO Spoilers)


lokisnow

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I mean, to be fair, he did mention last month that he was still "rewriting TUC" but presumably that is in line with his polishing and beefing up of the book that he mentioned several times before. I certainly don't know all the particulars. But from what we've understood he submitted the large manuscript that became two novels, of which the first is now out, and he's still tinkering with TUC, because he can, he probably does not need to have the final manuscript in right now as we're still a year away from publication. That's not that unusual. The proof, of course, will be in their next year's pudding.

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Oh I am honestly not sure on the particulars of all of that. I find the whole thing to be very vague.

I did want to add this, from last month' interview:

http://fantasyhotlist.blogspot.nl/2016/06/new-r-scott-bakker-interview.html

So he does have TUC turned in, but is now working on a rewrite consisting of some polishing etc.

 

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41 minutes ago, Calibandar said:

Oh I am honestly not sure on the particulars of all of that. I find the whole thing to be very vague.

I did want to add this, from last month' interview:

http://fantasyhotlist.blogspot.nl/2016/06/new-r-scott-bakker-interview.html

So he does have TUC turned in, but is now working on a rewrite consisting of some polishing etc.

 

He...uh...didn't say he had turned it in. Pat assumed that - but that isn't something Bakker said. 

And this is exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about as far as believing things. We had been told that the whole manuscript was turned in in 2015 and Bakker 'had no idea' what the hold up is - but that's a lie, right there. He knew what the hold up was - it was wanting to split the books - and apparently had even done that already, and sent out a manuscript of the first of two books. 

So yeah, I don't trust Bakker in small interviews like that because he's already shown to not be entirely truthful. As an example:

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I mean, to be fair, he did mention last month that he was still "rewriting TUC" but presumably that is in line with his polishing and beefing up of the book that he mentioned several times before

The presumption was based on other data, such as Madness having the entire book already and him turning in the whole book already. We know one to be false (or at least it has been stated as false) and we assumed the second one based on the first. 

Put it another way: Bakker has already used his fans without giving them full information in order to get something he wants, and his apparently most dedicated fan has lied for him. That doesn't make me particularly likely to trust either source.

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If we can't take the author himself as gospel anymore on the subject of whether or not a book is finished, well, there's really no one who you can believe. It's like GRRM posting that Winds of Winter is done on his blog and you say "don't think so dude, you've been wrong before".

GRRM has earned his trust. And GRRM has stated that no dates other than what comes from him are to be respected. Whereas Bakker had a fan lie for him and went along with it for 2 years. 

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What I will say is that Scott has been consistent about the state of TUC ever since he announced it was done. I believe he's posted more than a year ago that he handed TUC in, the initial manuscript that is, which he now appears to be revising. Scott just recently publicly confirmed that it will come out in July or August. 

 

And let's go through some information here. 

  • Where has TUC been announced that it's done?
  • Where did Scott 'confirm' anything about its release date? (the link you gave said tentatively July or August - this isn't a confirmation). 
  • Where did Scott state that the initial manuscript of TUC was handed in? And given that Madness didn't apparently receive that, why should we believe it?

There's an alternate theory, of course - that Madness is lying now, has read both pieces, and is lying so that he can participate in conversations without anyone being the wiser of his true knowledge. If you want to go down that road you can start reading his posts in more detail and trying to glean information, but I suspect that way lies...um...madness. 

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Assuming Madness is not merely a fraction of Bakker, it's not clear to me where Bakker lied or used his fans.

At best you can say he went along with Madness' plans, but it's also not clear to me Bakker was aware of what was happening in terms of this Overlook contact scheme.

I doubt authors keep track of their fandoms, and until recently Bakker seemed to barely register that there was a Second Apocalpyse forum?

I think to make a case against Bakker you'd have to show how even via charitable readings the only conclusion is intended deception.

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@Sci-2, maybe you can explain this in another way.

Bakker said he had no idea what the hold up was at overlook. This was before the split was announced.

Madness said he got a manuscript titled the great ordeal. Not TUC. And that it basically was the same as what was shipped. 

My interpretation is that Bakker knew the book was going to be split or wanted it to be split as early as 2014, and was in negotiations then. Him saying he had no idea about what the holdup was doesn't seem to be honest.

But that's my take. Another possibility is that madness is lying now. (I'm getting more on board with that). I just don't see how madness gets a manuscript with the title TGO in 2014 with bakker not choosing to mislead.

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I don't understand how you can read what we got and think it concludes....anything. No spoilers of course but it's like watching the second matrix film and thinking "what a satisfying conclusion that answered all My questions!"

and God help me I'm defending Bakker now? But it's possible he wasn't allowed to mention contract negation stuff per said contract.

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Jeez, it shows the sort of attitude in others people live amongst with how little it takes in order to demonize (or 'assholeise', if you prefer) someone. The puritans would be proud. I guess if you're never given charity, you never give it yourself - goes around, comes around, cycle of strife, etc etc dark side.

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4 minutes ago, Callan S. said:

Jeez, it shows the sort of attitude in others people live amongst with how little it takes in order to demonize (or 'assholeise', if you prefer) someone. The puritans would be proud. I guess if you're never given charity, you never give it yourself - goes around, comes around, cycle of strife, etc etc dark side.

I really have no idea what you're saying here. Do you? Like, does this make actual sense to you? 

This is the second time that you've interjected in a conversation here where it isn't actually clear what you mean. 

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1 hour ago, Callan S. said:

Jeez, it shows the sort of attitude in others people live amongst with how little it takes in order to demonize (or 'assholeise', if you prefer) someone. The puritans would be proud. I guess if you're never given charity, you never give it yourself - goes around, comes around, cycle of strife, etc etc dark side.

..what? Maybe don't lie to the community of the fan forum you run In Order to "troll the fans"? 

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I'm pretty sure it will be published next year.

The Great Ordeal was unaffected by the hysteria it would be "unpublishable"

I'm sure TUC will also be unaffected by "is it even written".

We could run a betting book on publication. I rarely bet but sometimes the market is ripe for the picking.

 

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On 18-7-2016 at 11:55 PM, Dickwad Poster #3784 said:

He...uh...didn't say he had turned it in. Pat assumed that - but that isn't something Bakker said. 

 

Pat asked how does it feel to have turned in two books and Scott goes on to reply on how that feels.

It would be ridiculous to not set Pat ( and with him everyone else ) straight on that if that were not true, and TUC was not book that had been turned in at least an initial first draft form. Which we've already been told Scott has done,back in March 2014.

It goes:

Q: With both THE GREAT ORDEAL and THE UNHOLY CONSULT turned in, has work begun on the yet-to-be-named duology that will follow The Aspect-Emperor?

A: "Nothing more than notes and fragments. At the moment I’m rewriting The Unholy Consult, buffing, polishing, strapping muscle on some bare bones."

 

Also, 

 

Q: Now that you have reached the end of the second series and looking back at the story that was the Prince of Nothing, how well do they fit the vision you had of the tale you set out to write?

 

 

A: "I would rewrite the whole thing if I could, and I also wouldn’t dare touch a thing. It feels biblical to me by this point, a monument somehow blessed for its imperfections. Some days I just marvel over the fact of what I’m writing, smack my head thinking, This is Golgotterath!

Golgotterath!

The details of the vision have mutated in numerous ways, but the frame remains the one I came up with so very long ago. I had always assumed I would come to this point feeling anguished, overmatched, chronically dissatisfied, and following The White-Luck Warrior I was initially, but as I mentioned above, something happened in the course of writing these two books. "

Seems pretty clear to me that the final book has been roughly finished as the intial manuscript ( that turned into two books) was finished back in March 2014, and some rewriting is now being done to TUC, which Scott confirms comes out in July or August 2017.

 

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13 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

..what? Maybe don't lie to the community of the fan forum you run In Order to "troll the fans"? 

You're assuming we got the same information you got. I don't know about any of the other members of the community apart from the ones i spoke to, no one feels as you appear to be feeling. I am perfectly happy with how madness gave me information, spoken to him on skype etc.

Is there anything i can do to help you through this? :)

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On 19-7-2016 at 0:05 AM, Dickwad Poster #3784 said:

 

And let's go through some information here. 

  • Where has TUC been announced that it's done?
  • Where did Scott 'confirm' anything about its release date? (the link you gave said tentatively July or August - this isn't a confirmation). 
  • Where did Scott state that the initial manuscript of TUC was handed in? And given that Madness didn't apparently receive that, why should we believe it?

 

I think you need to disentangle what you feel about what Madness did and said from what is actually the status of the book. The whole reason I am responding to this is because in this thread we now have people claiming that TUC is nowhere in sight. That seems flat out incorrect. We've been told the book will be out next year ever since we learned that TGO was actually coming out in July, and was part 1 of 2, and that that whole manuscript had basically been finished quite a while ago. I say "basically" only because Scott is clearly still doing some stuff to it now, a year before it will be published.

It takes a bit of time to go through all of this and I could say to myself, why bother, but that's not really my personality. I am basing this on the only source of information we have on this, which is Scott, since the publisher at no point made any updates. So it seems to me to go sort of like this:

October 2013: Scott posts that he has finished the first draft of TUC, but mentions that while it is monstrous, it will require significant rewriting. Amazing to think it's almost been 3 years by the way.

https://rsbakker.wordpress.com/2013/10/01/the-four-goads-at-the-crossroads/

March 2014: Scott posts that his agent has the book and that manuscripts are being sent out to various friends. In comments , Scott mentions to me " The ms is substantially bigger than WLW, actually, and about twice the size of TJE."

So again, at this point he is talking about the big manuscript from which now result two books.

https://rsbakker.wordpress.com/2014/03/08/the-closing-and-opening-of-covers/

I will add that his "I've since added 4 more chapters" comment seems to refer to the difference between this original large manuscript finished in 2014, and what he has now, In other words, the result of the rewriting has been an additional 4 chapters.

http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1861.0

 

October 2014: Scott mentions in comments that AE is complete, when asked about what happens to the final duology.

"All I’ve said is that I can die happily, with AE complete, since it finishes the story arc I’ve been sitting on since a punk. Writing the last series depends on how whether anyone gives me money to buy food while I write the last series. If no one does, which is always possible in the biz, then I’ll have to get a straight-job, and it’ll just take that much longer for it to come out. I’m actually in a quite enviable position, self-publishing-wise."

July 2015: Scott is posting that he is getting concerned about the total lack of response from Overlook, doesn't have editors yet etc.

https://rsbakker.wordpress.com/2015/06/20/in-the-shadow-of-summer/

November 2015: Scott reports that the UK publisher has finally come to terms with the 4th books.

Scott mentions:

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The important thing is that The Great Ordeal will be published next year, and The Unholy Consult will be published the year following. 

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The EG was the big reason for splitting the books, and its only thing still requiring any serious work. I’ve been writing fragments for the final series for years now–as soon as I’ve finished it and rewritten TUC, the final dualogy is my first priority.

https://rsbakker.wordpress.com/2015/11/22/on-ordeals-great-and-small-and-their-crashing/

Finally in last month's interview he confirms not only the current date for the book, but also explains that the delay also had to do with renogiating his contract into a 4-book contract. 

Now, if you're saying, clearly it was known before it was announced that the book would be split into two volumes, I'm certainly with you. That was the plan for longer , probably since he saw how huge the MS was ( much larger than WLW).Obviously that was not communicated. In addition to those negotiations however, I don't think he was lying at all  about the trouble he had getting Overlook in gear to publish even The Great Ordeal. I mean, look here, it is January 2016 and the split has been announced some time before that, and Scott still says that he doesn't have an editor yet. This was just a few months ago:

https://rsbakker.wordpress.com/2016/01/23/orbital-corpses/#comment-44566

I can't comment on what exactly Madness has read and received a few years ago, but the state of TUC itself is pretty clear IMO.

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