Roberts Kingsguard vs. Robb's personal guard

[Oakhearts head]

Okay, so I'll just preface this by acknowledging we don't have a ton of concrete info on the martial status of most of these characters and a large portion of the responses in this thread will be pure speculation. With that said, if you're happy to speculate, by all means feel free to participate.

Would three of Roberts seven Kingsguard fare better against Robb Stark and six of his personal guard during the WotFK than Gerold Hightower, Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent did against Ned Stark and his six companions at the Tower of Joy? Here are the teams...

Kingsguard :

- Ser Arys Oakheart.
- Ser Barristan Selmy.
- Ser Jaime Lannister (two hands).

vs.

Robb and his Personal Guard : 

- Ser Brynden Tully.
- Patrek Mallister.
- Ser Perwyn Frey.
- King Robb Stark.
- Smalljon Umber.
- Theon Greyjoy.
- Torrhen Karstark.

If it is too favoured towards the Northern/Riverland team, Jaime is wielding Oathkeeper.

Just to keep the Tower of Joy parallel going, the Kingsguard are guarding Sansa Stark in a secluded castle in the Crownlands.

Who wins and why?

[King Ned Stark]

As you say, just a gut feeling, or speculation, but I think the north wins.  Robb's group seems stronger to me than Ned's, and Jaime's group seems weaker than Arthur's.

I think Torrhen and Theon could take Arys.

Robb, Perwyn, and Smalljon could take Selmy.

And Blackfish and Patrek take Jaime.

With 3 or 4 north/river landers walking away.

[StarkofWinterfell]

So if we're going with a ToJ parallel, does that mean Robert impregnates Sansa or Joffrey? Robert is the Mad King in this scenario and Joffrey is Rhaegar?

[MinotaurWarrior]

I think Theon carries it for team Stark. The Kingsguard can't parry arrows.

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

I'll take Jaime Barri and Arys over the TJ 3 every time (Hightower was old and Whent was comicaly normal for a kg)... that said it's still a "numbers matter battle", if robb's guard (with great fighters) play smart and don´t attack final fantasy style one at a time, they win

[Lion of the West]

4 hours ago, Oakhearts head said:

Okay, so I'll just preface this by acknowledging we don't have a ton of concrete info on the martial status of most of these characters and a large portion of the responses in this thread will be pure speculation. With that said, if you're happy to speculate, by all means feel free to participate.

Would three of Roberts seven Kingsguard fare better against Robb Stark and six of his personal guard during the WotFK than Gerold Hightower, Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent did against Ned Stark and his six companions at the Tower of Joy? Here are the teams...

Kingsguard :

- Ser Arys Oakheart.
- Ser Barristan Selmy.
- Ser Jaime Lannister (two hands).

vs.

Robb and his Personal Guard : 

- Ser Brynden Tully.
- Patrek Mallister.
- Ser Perwyn Frey.
- King Robb Stark.
- Smalljon Umber.
- Theon Greyjoy.
- Torrhen Karstark.

If it is too favoured towards the Northern/Riverland team, Jaime is wielding Oathkeeper.

Just to keep the Tower of Joy parallel going, the Kingsguard are guarding Sansa Stark in a secluded castle in the Crownlands.

Who wins and why?

Robb's men wins because they are more than twice as many as the Kingsguard. The achivement of almost besting a group twice as large as their own is the stuff of legends, not a level of "do you have basic competence?" mark. Robb's group will thus win unless they take a purposefully disadvantegous stance in the fight.

[Cragen]

Greatjon can hold Jamie long enough, to rest of Robbs man deals with Oakheart and Baristan, three on one Oakheart wouldn't last long, then they can fight Jamie and Baristan. I don't see why for Kinsguard win.

[Nyrhex]

This is not really a question, Jaime and Barristan can do it by themselves and Arys can just cheer. They are literally two of the best swordsmen in the history of the Seven Kingdoms, with feats of defeating several foes and better swordsmen than any in Robb's group. Jaime went down fighting Robb's guard only after taking down 3 of them, after he lost his horse (it had been shot from under him early in the battle) and they were mounted. 

There is literally nothing to give Robb's team a chance here aside of fanboyism.

[Oakhearts head]

11 hours ago, Nyrhex said:

This is not really a question, Jaime and Barristan can do it by themselves and Arys can just cheer. They are literally two of the best swordsmen in the history of the Seven Kingdoms, with feats of defeating several foes and better swordsmen than any in Robb's group. Jaime went down fighting Robb's guard only after taking down 3 of them, after he lost his horse (it had been shot from under him early in the battle) and they were mounted.

I don't know. Blackfish is described as a legendary swordsmen, fighting alongside Barristan during the War of the Ninepenny Kings. Jaime spends a good portion of one of his chapters in Feast thinking about how much he looked up to Blackfish. Jaime also lists the Greatjon as a foe who could challenge him. Smalljon is basically a younger, bigger version of his father. 

So, at the very least we have two fighters here who could at least challenge Barristan and Jaime without immediately getting murked. Robb, Theon, Patrek and Torrhen are basically just there for backup while Blackfish and Smalljon do the brunt of the work. Perwyn Frey is a respected Knight, who I assume would be good fight for Arys. 

On paper, Robb's crew was a lot more accomplished than Ned's ToJ team were.

[Adam Yozza]

5 minutes ago, Oakhearts head said:

I don't know. Blackfish is described as a legendary swordsmen, fighting alongside Barristan during the War of the Ninepenny Kings. Jaime spends a good portion of one of his chapters in Feast thinking about how much he looked up to Blackfish. Jaime also lists the Greatjon as a foe who could challenge him. Smalljon is basically a younger, bigger version of his father. 

So, at the very least we have two fighters here who could at least challenge Barristan and Jaime without immediately getting murked. Robb, Theon, Patrek and Torrhen are basically just there for backup while Blackfish and Smalljon do the brunt of the work. Perwyn Frey is a respected Knight, who I assume would be good fight for Arys. 

On paper, Robb's crew was a lot more accomplished than Ned's ToJ team were.

I agree with everything you've said, except for one thing. While textual evidence supports Robb's crew as being better, I sincerely doubt Ned's ToJ team were incompetent or merely average. It seems like Ned would have taken a small group of highly skilled fighters. Since those six were chosen above any Umber, Karstark or Mormont, for example, I've always had this gut feeling that Ned's crew was very good, but not quite KG level. Hence why they won the ToJ (IMO) by nothing but superior numbers.

[MinotaurWarrior]

11 hours ago, Nyrhex said:

This is not really a question, Jaime and Barristan can do it by themselves and Arys can just cheer. They are literally two of the best swordsmen in the history of the Seven Kingdoms, with feats of defeating several foes and better swordsmen than any in Robb's group. Jaime went down fighting Robb's guard only after taking down 3 of them, after he lost his horse (it had been shot from under him early in the battle) and they were mounted. 

There is literally nothing to give Robb's team a chance here aside of fanboyism.

I agree with you that Barristan and Jamei could each 1v3 any group of Robb's swordsmen. But what do they do about Theon's arrows?

[Oakhearts head]

6 minutes ago, Adam Yozza said:

I agree with everything you've said, except for one thing. While textual evidence supports Robb's crew as being better, I sincerely doubt Ned's ToJ team were incompetent or merely average. It seems like Ned would have taken a small group of highly skilled fighters. Since those six were chosen above any Umber, Karstark or Mormont, for example, I've always had this gut feeling that Ned's crew was very good, but not quite KG level. Hence why they won the ToJ (IMO) by nothing but superior numbers.

I agree with you. Ned wouldn't have brought along anyone who couldn't fight. Robb's crew just has the advantage in that he has fighters from both the North and the Riverlands.

[StarkofWinterfell]

5 minutes ago, Oakhearts head said:

I agree with you. Ned wouldn't have brought along anyone who couldn't fight. Robb's crew just has the advantage in that he has fighters from both the North and the Riverlands.

But what would the motivations be for Robb to go against Joffrey. Are we talking another rebellion and did Joffrey abduct Sansa?

[Boarsbane]

We see how Jaime deals with Robb's personal guard at Whispering Wood, give him Selmy at his side and it's no contest. You are talking about two of, if not the two, greatest warriors in Westeros history.

[Oakhearts head]

10 minutes ago, Boarsbane said:

We see how Jaime deals with Robb's personal guard at Whispering Wood, give him Selmy at his side and it's no contest. You are talking about two of, if not the two, greatest warriors in Westeros history.

Jaime cut down two Karstarks and Daryn Hornwood. That doesn't exactly compare to the combined might of an Umber, the Blackfish and others.

35 minutes ago, StarkofWinterfell said:

But what would the motivations be for Robb to go against Joffrey. Are we talking another rebellion and did Joffrey abduct Sansa?

I put like two seconds of thought behind the ToJ comparison. Not really the point of the thread. Who do you think would win this fight?

[Boarsbane]

20 minutes ago, Oakhearts head said:

Jaime cut down two Karstarks and Daryn Hornwood. That doesn't exactly compare to the combined might of an Umber, the Blackfish and others.

I put like two seconds of thought behind the ToJ comparison. Not really the point of the thread. Who do you think would win this fight?

Smalljon is big but no indication he's all that skilled. Hard to say how good Blackfish is but no doubt he's past his prime. Jaime could probably kill either with relative ease, together would be tougher but he is pretty much peerless with a sword, the only man who could match him is on his side. 

[Barty]

3 hours ago, Boarsbane said:

Smalljon is big but no indication he's all that skilled. Hard to say how good Blackfish is but no doubt he's past his prime. Jaime could probably kill either with relative ease, together would be tougher but he is pretty much peerless with a sword, the only man who could match him is on his side. 

No indication that the SmallJon is skilled? He's highborn (meaning he's been trained since birth to fight), He's an Umber  (meaning he's probably had some fighting experience prior to the war against the frequent wildling raids in their lands) and he survived 3 large battles and multiple minor ones unscathed - and thats a feat even the legendary Kinglsayer cant match. 

Pretty sure the BlackFish is actually younger than Barristan by about 6-7 years (according to the wiki at least) - if BlackFish is past his prime then Barristan is definitely too. And numbers are a huge advantage - Arthur Dayne was better than Jaime and Gerold was pretty beastly but past his prime as well (makes a good mirror for Jaime and Barristan) and they couldnt stand up to Ned's squad. Dunno why this should be any different. 

[Aegon VII]

16 hours ago, Nyrhex said:

This is not really a question, Jaime and Barristan can do it by themselves and Arys can just cheer. They are literally two of the best swordsmen in the history of the Seven Kingdoms, with feats of defeating several foes and better swordsmen than any in Robb's group. 

Ha, exactly what I was thinking! To all the people saying the number difference is too great, Jaime and Selmy are good enough to know how to deal with fighting multiple foes. And that's their skill and expertise that comes out instinctually in the heat of battle. Whereas Robb's team would need either planning or split second communication in order to take the most effective strategy. id say Selmy and Jaime vs the 7 is fair, Oakheart puts them over the edge.

[Aegon VII]

4 hours ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

I agree with you that Barristan and Jamei could each 1v3 any group of Robb's swordsmen. But what do they do about Theon's arrows?

They could position their other enemies between them and Theon. Also I assume they are wearing full plate armor, so an arrow isn't the end of the world. Also if Theon is shooting he probably only has chainmail on tops. I could see either Jaime or Selmy throwing their dagger from 20 feet away and taking Theon down. Theon ain't shit.

[Oakhearts head]

1 hour ago, Barty said:

No indication that the SmallJon is skilled? He's highborn (meaning he's been trained since birth to fight), He's an Umber  (meaning he's probably had some fighting experience prior to the war against the frequent wildling raids in their lands) and he survived 3 large battles and multiple minor ones unscathed - and thats a feat even the legendary Kinglsayer cant match. 

Pretty sure the BlackFish is actually younger than Barristan by about 6-7 years (according to the wiki at least) - if BlackFish is past his prime then Barristan is definitely too. And numbers are a huge advantage - Arthur Dayne was better than Jaime and Gerold was pretty beastly but past his prime as well (makes a good mirror for Jaime and Barristan) and they couldnt stand up to Ned's squad. Dunno why this should be any different. 

Agree with most of this. I'd say Jaime was certainly in the same league as Dayne, but otherwise you basically hit the nail on the head.

Robb's team is being massively underrated here.