Does Qhorin = Qhoran?

[Aryya Stark]

1 hour ago, Julia H. said:

Qhorin seems to at least respect the wildlings even though he fights them. More importantly, I think he does them a great service when he sends Jon Snow - their future leader - to them. Jon will eventually recognize the wildlings as part of "the realms of men" and he will give them the best chance to integrate into the Seven Kingdoms. In this sense Qhorin helps shape the future of the wildlings in an important way.

 

1 hour ago, Seams said:

Yeah, the Qhorin/Jon pair is a little tricky. I guess my attempt to explain wasn't clear. Or maybe you will decide not to buy it. Jon becomes a wildling as a result of Qhorin sacrificing itself. It's one of the many, many "rebirths" in the books and, as we are told, only death can pay for life so Qhorin gave his life for Jon's rebirth. Even though Jon appears to betray the wildlings when he returns to the Night's Watch, I think it's fair to say that he is still loyal to them, in his own way. He still pines for Ygritte. He helps the wildlings to peacefully pass through the Wall and gives them a place to settle. He marries off Alice Karstark (his "sister," if you think Melisandre's "mistaken" vision might have meaning) to one of them. Jon's "pack" of trusted Night's Watch brothers grows after he returns from his undercover mission to include Leathers (a type of fabric worn by wildlings) and Satin (the fabric used to mend Mance Rayder's cloak). So, yes, Qhorin would be loyal to the wildlings, if the missing fingers theory is correct, but Jon then becomes a wildling. He is also a Night's Watch brother, but he doesn't lose the part of him that belongs to the Free Folk. (Julia H. and lujo's comments just were posted. They may have explained it better than I did.)

If you closely examine things that Qhorin says, he and Mormont are both aware that the wildlings are not really the problem for the Night's Watch and Westeros. They are more concerned about the White Walkers. I think Qhorin realizes that the Night's Watch and the Free Folk can unite against this common enemy, and that Jon is the only one who can unite them.

Tyrion and Jaime believe that Joffrey sent the catspaw to murder Bran. I do not believe it.

I also wondered about the loss of a whole hand or arm, and whether the pattern of "loyalty" (if that's the right word) follows for these kinds of amputations. Toward the end of AGoT, Theon tells about Grey Wind tearing the arm off a Lannister soldier during the Battle of the Whispering Wood. I think this disembodied Lannister arm comes back - symbolically, not literally - to kill Grey Wind and Robb at the Red Wedding. So that would not fit with the loyalty theory.

I did notice that the individual who cut off Jaime's arm was a Dothraki warrior, which has to be significant. I'm waiting to see what that might mean when Jaime comes into contact someday with, hmm, maybe a Khaleesi?

Not sure how Littlefinger fits the theory, if at all, but I'm sure his name is meaningful.

This post has some more about Tyrion's transformation on his voyages. Here are some thoughts about eggs and their possible meaning.

I like Qhorin and was sorry that his sole function seemed to be to guide Jon and then die. Maybe we'll find out more about his backstory, or maybe he is water under the bridge. Jon has many guides on his hero's journey who seem to be gone, of course. Ned Stark, Ygritte. There was a critical bit player named Stonesnake who guides Jon on his all-important journey to Ygritte and then disappears into the narrative. Maybe he will be seen again, but maybe he and his interesting name were needed for only one scene.

I am going to reply to these two posts together, since my response is related to both. First of all, both of them were great posts and all this finger stuff is now driving me insane! lol

Basically, what you are both saying is that Qhorin does fit the pattern since by sacrificing himself he gives the wildlings a chance at survival. Ultimately, it's Jon that lets them through the Wall. I really like that idea. 

 

Seams: loved your post but now you have me thinking of all the people who lost their fingers. Theon comes to mind. I had hoped he was able to break away from Ramsey but this theory now has me worried. 

 

[Aryya Stark]

2 hours ago, lujo said:

Playing along with the fingers stuff and peole becoming loyal upon losing them, could it be that Qhorin became loyal to Mance? And brought Jon to him?

Just tossing it out there...

Yes I think that basically is the gist of what everyone is trying to say. Perhaps not exactly Mance per se, but if I have understood the premise correctly, Qhorin by sacrificing himself gave the wildlings a chance at survival. Jon killed him, was taken in by the wildlings, got to know them, and because of that realized they were not the real threat, so he let them pass through the Wall. Therefore, in a round about way, Qhorin was loyal to the wildlings.

1 hour ago, M_Tootles said:

Really dig both your posts in this thread.

As I said via PM after logging in and finding the other thread closed, I don't think it's an accident that GRRM chose to make the words homonyms, but I also don't think that was necessarily anticipated when he originally named Qhorin. I think it's far more likely it was a reference to Qhorin Volmark and his refusal to bend the need to Aegon the Conqueror, thus mirroring Qhorin's (Gerold's) refusal to bend the knee to Bobby B. It's interesting that we have every reason to believe it's an Ironborn name, yet there's no indication that Qhorin's Ironborn.

Re: Stonesnake, he fits right in with Q=Gerold if you get into Jon=Mithras stuff. THE 2 iconic images of Mithras have him (1) emerging from a stone wrapped with a snake and (2) sacrificing a white bull with a sword while not looking at what he's doing.

Understand: people've written HUGE texts about Jon=Mithras without ever considering Gerold=Qhorin, so when you find something like that on top of the extant evidence...

You might be right. Up until now we are speculating because we don't have much to go on where Qhorin is concerned. Like I told you in PM, I have trouble with the Q=Gerold because honestly, I haven't looked at the Jon=Mithras theory. I will look into it, it sounds interesting and I might get an insight in why you are so convinced it's Gerold.

47 minutes ago, Eggshell Joe said:

If Qhorin = Qhoran, it ties in to the Mance = Rhaegar theory, which often indicates that Arthur Dayne = Qhorin (alternatively, Gerold Hightower = Qhorin, as noted above). 

It still doesn't make sense to me why Qhorin had to die the way he did to get Jon in with the wildlings, but as half-hand to the king it makes sense that he was willing to sacrifice himself for his friend, and for the cause. 

I am not convinced about the Mance=Rhaegar theory tbh. I really think Rhaegar is dead. However, I have always had a problem with Ned & co. killing all 3 KGs at the TOJ. To me it never made sense that Arthur Dayne who is described by Jaime as follows:

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"...I learned from Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, who could have slain all five of you with his left hand while he was taking a piss with the right..."

 For Ned and his friends to have killed all three of the KG together,  when we know Arthur Dayne was one of them, is a bit far fetched in my opinion. Anyway, I don't want to derail the subject too much but if Ned needed to hide someone or protect them, he would probably send them to the Wall, where:
 

Quote

by law a man's past crimes and transgressions are wiped clean when he says his words and becomes a Sworn Brother of the Night's Watch.

and the Wall could always use good men. I have toyed with the idea that it was Dayne, but it's just speculation on my part.

[lujo]

2 minutes ago, Aryya Stark said:

Yes I think that basically is the gist of what everyone is trying to say. Perhaps not exactly Mance per se, but if I have understood the premise correctly, Qhorin by sacrificing himself gave the wildlings a chance at survival. Jon killed him, was taken in by the wildlings, got to know them, and because of that realized they were not the real threat, so he let them pass through the Wall. Therefore, in a round about way, Qhorin was loyal to the wildlings.

I meant specifically because of your observation that his name sounds similar to something that means Hand of the King. If we fancifully and leisurely take that to be true, let's say Martin put that hint about in later to entice that particular reading of Qhorin because why not... Then the king in question would be Mance.

Err, were Mance and Qhorin pals before? With no speculative stuff like Mance being somebody other than Mance, just whether it would be possible that they were in cahoots.

[Aryya Stark]

30 minutes ago, lujo said:

I meant specifically because of your observation that his name sounds similar to something that means Hand of the King. If we fancifully and leisurely take that to be true, let's say Martin put that hint about in later to entice that particular reading of Qhorin because why not... Then the king in question would be Mance.

Err, were Mance and Qhorin pals before? With no speculative stuff like Mance being somebody other than Mance, just whether it would be possible that they were in cahoots.

Ah, good point. Yes they were both at the Shadow Tower and friends. Are you suggesting that Mance betrayed the NW, to try to unite the wildlings and that Qhorin was in on it and helped him, basically to try and get them through the Wall? That would suggest they had prior knowledge of the threat of the Others, because such an enterprise would be the work of years.

[Seams]

1 hour ago, Aryya Stark said:

Seams: loved your post but now you have me thinking of all the people who lost their fingers. Theon comes to mind. I had hoped he was able to break away from Ramsey but this theory now has me worried. 

Well thanks to your post, I went back and reread that post about the disembodied Lannister arms (People as Weapons) and found that I had shared my interpretation of Theon, Lady Hornwood, Coldhands and Jon Connington (his greyscale starts in his fingers) in a comment on that thread. But feel free to come up with better interpretations. Some of these are not fully thought through.

[Aryya Stark]

3 minutes ago, Seams said:

Well thanks to your post, I went back and reread that post about the disembodied Lannister arms (People as Weapons) and found that I had shared my interpretation of Theon, Lady Hornwood, Coldhands and Jon Connington (his greyscale starts in his fingers) in a comment on that thread. But feel free to come up with better interpretations. Some of these are not fully thought through.

Oh wow...you have given me so much to think of and read. Will definitely look into it. How about Victorian's volcanic hand? Any chance it's related? I will read your thread, probably tomorrow.

[lujo]

19 minutes ago, Aryya Stark said:

Ah, good point. Yes they were both at the Shadow Tower and friends. Are you suggesting that Mance betrayed the NW, to try to unite the wildlings and that Qhorin was in on it and helped him, basically to try and get them through the Wall? That would suggest they had prior knowledge of the threat of the Others, because such an enterprise would be the work of years.

I'm loath to suggest anything because the last thread I got active in got locked down in the middle of me writin a post that took several hours to write. It was annoying.

But essentially this seems logical. May be or may not be, and if the word similarity thing is intentional (I'd say yes, but not on this forum) it's also likely thrown in afterwards to either enrich a rereading, for a lark or to build up the reveal of this to Jon Snow or someone. I haven't touched the books to do any research on it, I'm speaking as a writer. Might be something in there that contradicts it, or whatever.

Also Mance did betray the NW for some reason, noone needs to suggest this. Qhorin probably helped him do it (Why not? Mace was a cool guy way far as I remember, if they were at the same tower, it's not unreasonable.) Jeor was cool with Craster, and Craster certainly knows about the Others and has since forever (how long HAS that been going on? that's gonna need some explaining too at one point). Might be Mance and Qhorin had different ideas than whoever was boss when Mance ran away? Maybe Mance just kept in touch with Qhorin? Sure would explain a lot, that last one, they wouldn't need to premeditate anything, Mance could run, find out about the Others or whatever and get in touch with Qhorin...

Again, Qhorin got his name way before he would have been "hand of the king", if this was true. But as far as hints go it'd be a cool one, and as far as "wth is the story with mance anyway" and "is qhorin really a throwaway characer" I like the direction.

[Seams]

3 minutes ago, Aryya Stark said:

Oh wow...you have given me so much to think of and read. Will definitely look into it. How about Victorian's volcanic hand? Any chance it's related? I will read your thread, probably tomorrow.

Good question. I've been focused on the Starks and Tyrion, for the most part, and haven't done a lot of analysis of the other Houses. I hope you'll be able to tell me how Victarion fits into the pattern, if at all.

[Julia H.]

1 hour ago, Aryya Stark said:

I am not convinced about the Mance=Rhaegar theory tbh. I really think Rhaegar is dead. However, I have always had a problem with Ned & co. killing all 3 KGs at the TOJ. To me it never made sense that Arthur Dayne who is described by Jaime as follows:

 For Ned and his friends to have killed all three of the KG together,  when we know Arthur Dayne was one of them, is a bit far fetched in my opinion. Anyway, I don't want to derail the subject too much but if Ned needed to hide someone or protect them, he would probably send them to the Wall, where:
 

and the Wall could always use good men. I have toyed with the idea that it was Dayne, but it's just speculation on my part.

I don't want to directly suggest anything, but here is this line from ACoK:

Quote

Dawn and Qhorin Halfhand arrived together.

It sounds both very innocent and very ... intriguing. 

[Aryya Stark]

19 hours ago, lujo said:

I'm loath to suggest anything because the last thread I got active in got locked down in the middle of me writin a post that took several hours to write. It was annoying.

But essentially this seems logical. May be or may not be, and if the word similarity thing is intentional (I'd say yes, but not on this forum) it's also likely thrown in afterwards to either enrich a rereading, for a lark or to build up the reveal of this to Jon Snow or someone. I haven't touched the books to do any research on it, I'm speaking as a writer. Might be something in there that contradicts it, or whatever.

Also Mance did betray the NW for some reason, noone needs to suggest this. Qhorin probably helped him do it (Why not? Mace was a cool guy way far as I remember, if they were at the same tower, it's not unreasonable.) Jeor was cool with Craster, and Craster certainly knows about the Others and has since forever (how long HAS that been going on? that's gonna need some explaining too at one point). Might be Mance and Qhorin had different ideas than whoever was boss when Mance ran away? Maybe Mance just kept in touch with Qhorin? Sure would explain a lot, that last one, they wouldn't need to premeditate anything, Mance could run, find out about the Others or whatever and get in touch with Qhorin...
 

With regards, to the bolded section, I always wondered how easily Mance just managed to attend the Winterfell feast when Robert Baratheon visited. He is supposed to have scaled the Wall at Long Barrow. Scaling the Wall was not an easy thing to do as we know that Jon and the his company of willings faced a lot of difficulties. Therefore, did he have help to cross the Wall? It would make sense if he and Qhorin were still friends and Qhorin let him through. Does the Shadow Tower have a gate? 

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Again, Qhorin got his name way before he would have been "hand of the king", if this was true. But as far as hints go it'd be a cool one, and as far as "wth is the story with mance anyway" and "is qhorin really a throwaway characer" I like the direction.

Yes, it is a cool hint and if true, it makes Qhorin more than a throw away character. 

 

19 hours ago, Seams said:

Good question. I've been focused on the Starks and Tyrion, for the most part, and haven't done a lot of analysis of the other Houses. I hope you'll be able to tell me how Victarion fits into the pattern, if at all.

Tbh, I haven't had a chance to read through the thread yet, it's been a crazy day. I am sure there are more characters we have missed, but I promise to look at your thread soon and let you know what I think.

19 hours ago, Julia H. said:

I don't want to directly suggest anything, but here is this line from ACoK:

It sounds both very innocent and very ... intriguing. 

Yes that line is indeed intriguing, and it caught my attention, there is also another "Dawn" line which I can't remember now and don't have my books with me but which also seemed to hint at Dayne.

[lujo]

57 minutes ago, Aryya Stark said:

Scaling the Wall was not an easy thing to do as we know that Jon and the his company of willings faced a lot of difficulties. Therefore, did he have help to cross the Wall? It would make sense if he and Qhorin were still friends and Qhorin let him through. Does the Shadow Tower have a gate?

The size of that wall, btw, took me "right out of it" way back when I first read the books because it's completely ludicrous. It doesn't even take reading a chapter where someone demonstrates how difficult it is to climb it, it's an order of magnitude or so above "huge enough to be an enormously cool huge damn wall" and solidly in "dude, this wall is breaking my suspension of disbelief, and I'm reading a fantasy novel". So yeah, I'd buy it that Qhorin was letting Mance come and go. Not necessarily even at their tower, why not any abandoned one nearby?

Here's some nice mindfuckery which looks like bullshit when you first hear it but brilliant in retrospect if true (and Martin has openly said that when he was writing this stuff what he was really interested in exploring ways to write things to be cool on repeated readings): What if Qhorin was helping Mance become King Beyond the Wall by offing his opposition or dissenters? Like maybe that Crowkiller guy? I mean, who'd know? The wildlings would be like "Those damned crows killed this guy who was making faces at Mance, he really was stupid!" and the NW would be "Yay, bravo Qhorin, you killed a vicious wildling!"  

No proof of anything but Preston Jacobs keeps offering to do a series on "Night Watch Factions", and now I'm wondering if maybe what we're talking about actually works out. Not sure if you're familiar with his, well, it's a theory but seems mostly rock solid to me, anywho, if you're familiar with his solution for how the whole most recent mess with the Others started.

Not sure it's written down anywhere but in essence it goes:

Spoiler

The Others are having trouble reproducing or have a small gene pool, but can reproduce with humans (or ARE humans, just mutated or changed somehow) (notably common theme in Martin's old stories).
The Northern houses close to the wall practice the right of the first night (Boltons, Umbers...) which produces children.
These children, the bastards, are then given over to the Others through the wall.
We even see the gate where it's done - it's the Queensgate, shaped like a Weirwood face with an open mouth.
The gate is called Queensgate because Queen Alysanne made them all stop.
She made them stop, she took away good lands from the Umbers and the Mountain clans and gave them over to the  Nights Watch, as to put a stop to this, and the gate got renamed from what it was previously called - SNOWgate, which is North Westerosi for BASTARDgate.
This breaks whatever the pact was, and the others eventually go looking for more genetic material, or in other words on a rampage against the Wildlings.
Jeor and Craster, though, are keepign things civil with Craster routinely giving kids over to the others, but the kids are inbred AF (which might even be their "game" to mess the Others up long term).
Which would explain why the Nights Watch are best pals with the most singularly depraved wildling. 

All this is fine by me, and this would kinda make the wildlings only really there to be fodder for the Others, and the NW is keeping them penned up as sacrifices waiting to happen. If Mance found out that "we are the bad guys" maybe he (and I suppose Qhorin, why not?) decided to put some sort of end to all that nonsense.

Anywho, I'm not sure if I relayed the theory correctly but what the Mance and Qhorin are actually pals theory suggests, if true, would fit nicely with that one.

 

[Aryya Stark]

20 hours ago, lujo said:

The size of that wall, btw, took me "right out of it" way back when I first read the books because it's completely ludicrous. It doesn't even take reading a chapter where someone demonstrates how difficult it is to climb it, it's an order of magnitude or so above "huge enough to be an enormously cool huge damn wall" and solidly in "dude, this wall is breaking my suspension of disbelief, and I'm reading a fantasy novel". So yeah, I'd buy it that Qhorin was letting Mance come and go. Not necessarily even at their tower, why not any abandoned one nearby?
 

I have to agree with this entire premise because the whole thing was ludicrous and the way Mance told the tale to Jon, it sounded like "no big deal", which was complete BS. I especially like the idea that they might have been using an abandoned tower. 

 

20 hours ago, lujo said:

Here's some nice mindfuckery which looks like bullshit when you first hear it but brilliant in retrospect if true (and Martin has openly said that when he was writing this stuff what he was really interested in exploring ways to write things to be cool on repeated readings):

 

Everytime I reread the books, I discover things I had missed the first time lol. 

20 hours ago, lujo said:

What if Qhorin was helping Mance become King Beyond the Wall by offing his opposition or dissenters? Like maybe that Crowkiller guy? I mean, who'd know? The wildlings would be like "Those damned crows killed this guy who was making faces at Mance, he really was stupid!" and the NW would be "Yay, bravo Qhorin, you killed a vicious wildling!" 

Wasn't Alfyn Crowkiller Mance's scout or something? I thought he was one of Mance's men? I can't remember.

 

20 hours ago, lujo said:

No proof of anything but Preston Jacobs keeps offering to do a series on "Night Watch Factions", and now I'm wondering if maybe what we're talking about actually works out. Not sure if you're familiar with his, well, it's a theory but seems mostly rock solid to me, anywho, if you're familiar with his solution for how the whole most recent mess with the Others started.

Not sure it's written down anywhere but in essence it goes:

  Reveal hidden contents

The Others are having trouble reproducing or have a small gene pool, but can reproduce with humans (or ARE humans, just mutated or changed somehow) (notably common theme in Martin's old stories).
The Northern houses close to the wall practice the right of the first night (Boltons, Umbers...) which produces children.
These children, the bastards, are then given over to the Others through the wall.
We even see the gate where it's done - it's the Queensgate, shaped like a Weirwood face with an open mouth.
The gate is called Queensgate because Queen Alysanne made them all stop.
She made them stop, she took away good lands from the Umbers and the Mountain clans and gave them over to the  Nights Watch, as to put a stop to this, and the gate got renamed from what it was previously called - SNOWgate, which is North Westerosi for BASTARDgate.
This breaks whatever the pact was, and the others eventually go looking for more genetic material, or in other words on a rampage against the Wildlings.
Jeor and Craster, though, are keepign things civil with Craster routinely giving kids over to the others, but the kids are inbred AF (which might even be their "game" to mess the Others up long term).
Which would explain why the Nights Watch are best pals with the most singularly depraved wildling. 

All this is fine by me, and this would kinda make the wildlings only really there to be fodder for the Others, and the NW is keeping them penned up as sacrifices waiting to happen. If Mance found out that "we are the bad guys" maybe he (and I suppose Qhorin, why not?) decided to put some sort of end to all that nonsense.

Anywho, I'm not sure if I relayed the theory correctly but what the Mance and Qhorin are actually pals theory suggests, if true, would fit nicely with that one.

 

I was familiar with his Dorne theory not this one. It's a good theory, I like the connections with the Snowgate/being the gate through which Snows were offered as sacrifice connection.

Therefore, the NW is purposefully sacrificing the wildlings to the Others? That sucks and if that was truly happening then the NW fell a long time ago. The reason that Mance and Qhorin allied is basically to save the wildlings?

OTOH based on this theory, the only way to stop the Others would be to resume the sacrifice of innocent babies? Isn't giving babies to the Others also considered an atrocious act? I don't know which one of these two scenarios is worse lol.

[Aryya Stark]

On July 8, 2016 at 11:47 PM, M_Tootles said:

Really dig both your posts in this thread.

As I said via PM after logging in and finding the other thread closed, I don't think it's an accident that GRRM chose to make the words homonyms, but I also don't think that was necessarily anticipated when he originally named Qhorin. I think it's far more likely it was a reference to Qhorin Volmark and his refusal to bend the need to Aegon the Conqueror, thus mirroring Qhorin's (Gerold's) refusal to bend the knee to Bobby B. It's interesting that we have every reason to believe it's an Ironborn name, yet there's no indication that Qhorin's Ironborn.

Re: Stonesnake, he fits right in with Q=Gerold if you get into Jon=Mithras stuff. THE 2 iconic images of Mithras have him (1) emerging from a stone wrapped with a snake and (2) sacrificing a white bull with a sword while not looking at what he's doing.

Understand: people've written HUGE texts about Jon=Mithras without ever considering Gerold=Qhorin, so when you find something like that on top of the extant evidence...

I just finished Part 2...and I am soooooo hooked. Is there a part 3? He said there were 4 parts originally.

[lujo]

1 hour ago, Aryya Stark said:

I have to agree with this entire premise because the whole thing was ludicrous and the way Mance told the tale to Jon, it sounded like "no big deal", which was complete BS. I especially like the idea that they might have been using an abandoned tower. 

Yeah, well, we're solidly in fanfiction theory as far as proof goes, but pretty plausible, you know. If you're conspiring with Mance, and folks around know Mance from before, this makes plenty of sense. I guess? Although, the hole in this theory is that if Mance had an easy way through the wall, why not take it and why instead march the whole army on the wall.

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Everytime I reread the books, I discover things I had missed the first time lol. 

Ofc you do. The surface narrative is actually rather silly and in places makes 0 sense as material the first time around. Most of it is told through the eyes of badly informed dipshits (who know nothing, lol, and we get told this a lot), too, and occasionally prejudiced and unboservant ones. It's one big excercies in hiding stuff in plain sight using very simple english and repetitive structures from the old epic styles. Which is why I get worked up when someone insists on the most literal readings - you can't make things have a good rereading if everything is apparent the first time around. And if you have to encourage the person to reread you need to make the base text downright stupid. Which it often is, consistently with the style, the psyhology of most of the PoV characters and the literary practice. It being so popular just because of the surface reading says way more about people and the state of general education and literacy than what the texts is about, and if I were the guy writing it I'd be quite bummed. But I digress.

Take the Kraken's daughter chapter, from AFFC. Asha gets told not to bother trying to do something because it'll fail. Later in the book, she does try anyway, and she fails. So that chapter just spoils the rest of it for you, and you know that's not leading anywhere, so what gives? As far as what's going on - most pointless chapter ever. Entirety of worth in that chapter is in the stuff that looks too boring to even pay attention to and what can be peiced together from it and Martin hid a ton of crap in it. Most of AFFC is like this, it ussually gets pegged for "worst book in series", becuase what's actually going on seems to fly over people's heads. 

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Wasn't Alfyn Crowkiller Mance's scout or something? I thought he was one of Mance's men? I can't remember.

No idea, but if were fanfictioning here, Alfyn Crowkiller sounds like a guy you'd want to get rid off. Well, so do a few others. It could've been going on for a while, as I said, might be that Qhorin helped Mance become king this way. Nice conspiracy, and as Craster even existing illustrates it's not like Crows and Wildlings never talk things over.

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I was familiar with his Dorne theory not this one. It's a good theory, I like the connections with the Snowgate/being the gate through which Snows were offered as sacrifice connection.

Therefore, the NW is purposefully sacrificing the wildlings to the Others? That sucks and if that was truly happening then the NW fell a long time ago. The reason that Mance and Qhorin allied is basically to save the wildlings?

OTOH based on this theory, the only way to stop the Others would be to resume the sacrifice of innocent babies? Isn't giving babies to the Others also considered an atrocious act? I don't know which one of these two scenarios is worse lol.

True, but it's just one of those things - you don't stop and think, hold on wth are the watch so chummy with this Craster guy anyway? "He's our ally". Yeah, sure, but dudes, there's other bloody wildlings out there, why pick, like, the most depraved one?

There's been a bunch of speculation on Craster anyway, and people have asked themselves whether Wildlings as such are descendants of folks who were dumped beyond the wall rather than AT the wall and their entire purpose is to be Other-fodder.

It would be an interesting twist that the NW were bad guys all along, but in a way which meant that even they have forgotten what they're for so that most of them don't know it. 

IDK but it'd make nice and not implausible twist material. 

[lujo]

!!!

Here's a VERY simple explanation for why the Others have become extra threatening. It's a stupid one, but possibly a plausible one.

Craster has been making babies for the others for a while now? We don't really have a good idea of how long this has been going on. But a bunch of others are Craster's sons, right? What if a bunch of them are just inbred AF nutcases? It's a big motiff in the rest of the story, Joffrey, Targaryens being inbred, etc. I mean, what if a significant number of Others are descendants of Craster and Craster's daughters? How many Joffrey's is that?

I'm sure I'm not the first person to suggest this though.

[M_Tootles]

6 hours ago, Aryya Stark said:

I just finished Part 2...and I am soooooo hooked. Is there a part 3? He said there were 4 parts originally.

It just continues in the next two comments, I believe. (Ignore the strikethroughs) All 4 parts are right there.

Fascinating the way (brilliant, to be sure) poster has to bend over to try to work in The White Bull and how much cleaner the whole thing gets if Qhorin=Gerold (it's THE TAUROCTONY!) and Ashara DAYNE is Jon's mother/Perseus's mother "Danaë" (say the name out loud: Dayna).

[gregg22]

Qhorin Volmark (first King of Iron Islands) was killed by Aegon I with Blackfyre.

Qhorin Half hand was killed by who? With what?

How do you like them apples.

[lujo]

2 hours ago, gregg22 said:

Qhorin Volmark (first King of Iron Islands) was killed by Aegon I with Blackfyre.

Qhorin Half hand was killed by who? With what?

How do you like them apples.

By Jon Sow but with what?

Tootles, why so obsessed with Qhorin = Gerold. I can possibly even get behind Oswel Kettleblack being Oswel Whent, but Gerold Hightower had better places to go than the wall, and he was also old AF. It's just a huuuuuuuge stretch.

Also I read a bunch of your tinfoil, and the dornish stuff in large parts feels weirdly sensible. How come you haven't pegged Shae as Dornish? If you haven't?

[Aryya Stark]

14 hours ago, lujo said:

Yeah, well, we're solidly in fanfiction theory as far as proof goes, but pretty plausible, you know. If you're conspiring with Mance, and folks around know Mance from before, this makes plenty of sense. I guess? Although, the hole in this theory is that if Mance had an easy way through the wall, why not take it and why instead march the whole army on the wall.

Maybe there is no proof, but as you pointed out it makes sense. As for the second bolded section, if your theory is correct Qhorin was dead by then. Secondly, I think it would be easy to sneak one person through the wall without people noticing but a whole army of people would be a different matter and it would take time. Someone from the NW was bound to notice and inform on them. Therefore, they really didn't have a choice in the matter.

 

14 hours ago, lujo said:

Ofc you do. The surface narrative is actually rather silly and in places makes 0 sense as material the first time around. Most of it is told through the eyes of badly informed dipshits (who know nothing, lol, and we get told this a lot), too, and occasionally prejudiced and unboservant ones. It's one big excercies in hiding stuff in plain sight using very simple english and repetitive structures from the old epic styles. Which is why I get worked up when someone insists on the most literal readings - you can't make things have a good rereading if everything is apparent the first time around. And if you have to encourage the person to reread you need to make the base text downright stupid. Which it often is, consistently with the style, the psyhology of most of the PoV characters and the literary practice. It being so popular just because of the surface reading says way more about people and the state of general education and literacy than what the texts is about, and if I were the guy writing it I'd be quite bummed. But I digress.

Take the Kraken's daughter chapter, from AFFC. Asha gets told not to bother trying to do something because it'll fail. Later in the book, she does try anyway, and she fails. So that chapter just spoils the rest of it for you, and you know that's not leading anywhere, so what gives? As far as what's going on - most pointless chapter ever. Entirety of worth in that chapter is in the stuff that looks too boring to even pay attention to and what can be peiced together from it and Martin hid a ton of crap in it. Most of AFFC is like this, it ussually gets pegged for "worst book in series", becuase what's actually going on seems to fly over people's heads. 

Yes I agree. I love the layers upon layers in the books and the little nuggets of information and clues we keep finding every time we reread them. AFFC doesn't get the recognition it deserves, it's a treasure trove of clues and information. I realize it can be frustrating when as a writer you discuss the books with people who only see the surface material, but I think you will find many people like yourself on these boards as well. People who have been perusing through the books for years and put together outstanding theories.

 

14 hours ago, lujo said:

True, but it's just one of those things - you don't stop and think, hold on wth are the watch so chummy with this Craster guy anyway? "He's our ally". Yeah, sure, but dudes, there's other bloody wildlings out there, why pick, like, the most depraved one?

There's been a bunch of speculation on Craster anyway, and people have asked themselves whether Wildlings as such are descendants of folks who were dumped beyond the wall rather than AT the wall and their entire purpose is to be Other-fodder.

It would be an interesting twist that the NW were bad guys all along, but in a way which meant that even they have forgotten what they're for so that most of them don't know it. 

IDK but it'd make nice and not implausible twist material. 

Exactly! It has always bothered me the alliance between Craster and the NW. Especially since the NW know that Craster is sacrificing his sons to the Others. Who do the NW consider to be their real the enemy? The Others or the Wildlings? You know the saying..."the enemy of my enemy is my friend?" If we were to invert the saying it would be "the friend of my enemy is my enemy", but in the NW case with Craster it seems to be "the friend of my enemy is my friend" which makes absolutely no sense.

I think the second part I bolded makes a lot of sense. The NW is like an institution that was created for a purpose and over time have changed their purpose because the initial reason they had been created for was at bay for a long time. They sort of remind me of NATO, and the UN lol, they were created for a specific purpose and now who the hell knows what their purpose is? The ironic part of this is that Jon tries to make the NW remember their purpose but they have been so entrenched in their "mis-purpose" for so long that they stab him for it.

 

[Aryya Stark]

14 hours ago, lujo said:

!!!

Here's a VERY simple explanation for why the Others have become extra threatening. It's a stupid one, but possibly a plausible one.

Craster has been making babies for the others for a while now? We don't really have a good idea of how long this has been going on. But a bunch of others are Craster's sons, right? What if a bunch of them are just inbred AF nutcases? It's a big motiff in the rest of the story, Joffrey, Targaryens being inbred, etc. I mean, what if a significant number of Others are descendants of Craster and Craster's daughters? How many Joffrey's is that?

I'm sure I'm not the first person to suggest this though.

 

This is a good a reason as any. At this point, GRRM hasn't given us enough to work with. What do we really know of the Others?

• We know they have their own language. 
• We know that they bring the cold or the cold brings them.
• We know that normal steel is useless against them.
• We know they accept human/child sacrifices.
• We know they can create wights.
• We know they can have sexual relations with humans. (the Night's King story)

That's what I can think of off the top of my mind, but we don't know what they are? Obviously, they are some sort of species that needs humans to continue to survive. I am not going to discuss the TV show's version of things because they are so different from the books that I don't know if their version is the correct one. Anyway, I wonder what it is they want exactly. They must have an agenda of sorts. Are they really as bad as we think they are? Are they crazy because of all the Craster sons through incest and therefore have no agenda but are just wreaking destruction for the sake of destruction? 

However, language is a mark of being civilized and they seem to have a language as we see from the prologue in AGOT. This I found very interesting, because with language comes culture, civilization and history. But I may be wrong