If beauty is in the eye of the beholder...

[Lockjaw of House Boltagon]

...who can be objectively more beautiful than Cersei?

Or is the Younger, More Beautiful Queen only more beautiful than Cersei in Maggy's opinion?

Or are we supposed to think Cersei's no longer beautiful because she gained weight and is bald now? I hope that's not the case. But then again, GRRM describes her - a 30-something woman - with sagging breasts that appear to disgust the people of KL, so...Male gaze FTW, I guess :/

I mean there are a lot of characters described as beautiful, some in a more traditional way (read: slender, tall) like Val, Melisandre or Sansa, and others in a less traditional manner but still beautiful, like Arianne, who is short and curvy, and according to some interpretations, Arya, who is said to look like Lyanna, who was considered beautiful despite having the Stark features that might be plain in other people. 

Margaery and Jeyne Westerling, for their part, are described as pretty enough but nothing more by Cersei and Jaime respectively. And I guess Myrcella losing her ear becomes less attractive in accordance to Westerosi beauty standards. 

Honestly, the only woman that I can think of being objectively (whatever that means) more beautiful than Cersei is Dany, simply because Targaryen features seem to be synonymous with otherworldly beauty in Planetos, at least in-universe.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if the YMBQ turns out to be, say, Sansa, I would feel a bit...cheated, for lack of a better word. Sure, Sansa is beautiful but who can say if she's objectively more beautiful than Cersei? Know what I mean? 

I think I'd rather it be Brienne the Beauty, the whole thing being Maggy's epic trolling. Or Dany, who, like I said, is apparently considered the most beautiful woman in the world. 

 

 

[Prince of the North]

I think the very first thing you wrote is the biggest take-away from all this: beauty IS in the eye of the beholder (i.e. there actually is no such thing as "objective" beauty).  But I think you're right that Maggy the Frog was trolling Cercei with the prophecy, in a way, but just not in that way.  You see, I think maggy was definitely playing on Cercei's worst fears that are, of course, fed by her extreme narcissism and vanity.  Her greatest fear, by far, would be to be replaced or "cast down" by someone "more beautiful" 

[Wolf's Bane]

24 minutes ago, Lyin' Ned said:

...who can be objectively more beautiful than Cersei?

Or is the Younger, More Beautiful Queen only more beautiful than Cersei in Maggy's opinion?

Or are we supposed to think Cersei's no longer beautiful because she gained weight and is bald now? I hope that's not the case. But then again, GRRM describes her - a 30-something woman - with sagging breasts that appear to disgust the people of KL, so...Male gaze FTW, I guess :/

I mean there are a lot of characters described as beautiful, some in a more traditional way (read: slender, tall) like Val, Melisandre or Sansa, and others in a less traditional manner but still beautiful, like Arianne, who is short and curvy, and according to some interpretations, Arya, who is said to look like Lyanna, who was considered beautiful despite having the Stark features that might be plain in other people. 

Margaery and Jeyne Westerling, for their part, are described as pretty enough but nothing more by Cersei and Jaime respectively. And I guess Myrcella losing her ear becomes less attractive in accordance to Westerosi beauty standards. 

Honestly, the only woman that I can think of being objectively (whatever that means) more beautiful than Cersei is Dany, simply because Targaryen features seem to be synonymous with otherworldly beauty in Planetos, at least in-universe.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if the YMBQ turns out to be, say, Sansa, I would feel a bit...cheated, for lack of a better word. Sure, Sansa is beautiful but who can say if she's objectively more beautiful than Cersei? Know what I mean? 

I think I'd rather it be Brienne the Beauty, the whole thing being Maggy's epic trolling. Or Dany, who, like I said, is apparently considered the most beautiful woman in the world. 

 

 

Daenerys is not the only one who is clearly more beautiful than Cersei.  Dany is the most beautiful woman in the world, in that world.  However, Ashara Dayne is also more beautiful than Cersei.  That's two women who have it over Cersei.  Let's talk about Cersei. 

These are my impressions of Cersei.

1. Cersei is more beautiful than Lyanna.
2. If Cersei and Margery were the same age, Cersei wins.
3. Catelyn is lovely but not as lovely as Cersei
4. Cersei would win over Sansa if they were the same age
5. Picture a feminine version of Jaime.  Jaime is said to be handsome.  As handsome as anyone who isn't a Targaryen could be. 

In other words, Cersei is hot.

[Lockjaw of House Boltagon]

5 minutes ago, Steelshanks Walton said:

Daenerys is not the only one who is clearly more beautiful than Cersei.  Dany is the most beautiful woman in the world, in that world.  However, Ashara Dayne is also more beautiful than Cersei.  That's two women who have it over Cersei.  Let's talk about Cersei. 

These are my impressions of Cersei.

1. Cersei is more beautiful than Lyanna.
2. If Cersei and Margery were the same age, Cersei wins.
3. Catelyn is lovely but not as lovely as Cersei
4. Cersei would win over Sansa if they were the same age
5. Picture a feminine version of Jaime.  Jaime is said to be handsome.  As handsome as anyone who isn't a Targaryen could be. 

In other words, Cersei is hot.

Sure, but I'm assuming Ashara is dead. And even if she were, say, Septa Lemore, Tyrion thinks she's more handsome than beautiful (and I think she's older than Cersei?)

But yeah, I agree. Cersei is described as very hot, which is why it's hard to find someone who's objectively more attractive than her. 

24 minutes ago, Prince of the North said:

I think the very first thing you wrote is the biggest take-away from all this: beauty IS in the eye of the beholder (i.e. there actually is no such thing as "objective" beauty).  But I think you're right that Maggy the Frog was trolling Cercei with the prophecy, in a way, but just not in that way.  You see, I think maggy was definitely playing on Cercei's worst fears that are, of course, fed by her extreme narcissism and vanity.  Her greatest fear, by far, would be to be replaced or "cast down" by someone "more beautiful" 

Interesting take, but I personally would feel a bit cheated if there was no actual YMBQ. 

[Fencer]

2 hours ago, Lyin' Ned said:

Margaery and Jeyne Westerling, for their part, are described as pretty enough but nothing more by Cersei and Jaime respectively. And I guess Myrcella losing her ear becomes less attractive in accordance to Westerosi beauty standards. 

I'd take Margaery's description through Cersei's eyes with a tremendous grain of salt; I would expect that Cersei could never acknowledge to herself, let alone someone else, that anyone is more beautiful than she is.  I've always imagined Margaery to be incredibly attractive, and not just because Natalie Dormer.

[Prince of the North]

3 minutes ago, Fencer said:

I'd take Margaery's description through Cersei's eyes with a tremendous grain of salt; I would expect that Cersei could never acknowledge to herself, let alone someone else, that anyone is more beautiful than she is.  I've always imagined Margaery to be incredibly attractive, and not just because Natalie Dormer.

Yes, that's one way in which Martin signifies "beauty" in ASoIaF.  He says someone was considered "beautiful" and then he describes someone else as resembling them.  In Margaery's case that's Lyanna Stark.  Martin also sets up that Arya could grow into a "beauty" because she is said to resemble her aunt Lyanna (physically and behaviorally) and he also craftily signals to us that Jon looks like Lyanna, too, because he is described as looking like Arya

But, you're definitely right, when it comes to anything Book!Cercei says/thinks we should always "consider the source".

[Lockjaw of House Boltagon]

13 minutes ago, Fencer said:

I'd take Margaery's description through Cersei's eyes with a tremendous grain of salt; I would expect that Cersei could never acknowledge to herself, let alone someone else, that anyone is more beautiful than she is.  I've always imagined Margaery to be incredibly attractive, and not just because Natalie Dormer.

I don't know, she's very narcissistic but also very insecure. And she does remark many times on how beautiful Taena Merryweather is, at times even seeming to accept she's more attractive than her. 

4 minutes ago, Prince of the North said:

Yes, that's one way in which Martin signifies "beauty" in ASoIaF.  He says someone was considered "beautiful" and then he describes someone else as resembling them.  In Margaery's case that's Lyanna Stark.  Martin also sets up that Arya could grow into a "beauty" because she is said to resemble her aunt Lyanna (physically and behaviorally) and he also craftily signals to us that Jon looks like Lyanna, too, because he is described as looking like Arya

But, you're definitely right, when it comes to anything Book!Cercei says/thinks we should always "consider the source".

I might be wrong, but didn't Ned think that Margaery looked nothing like Lyanna when Renly showed him the picture?

[Prince of the North]

5 minutes ago, Lyin' Ned said:

I don't know, she's very narcissistic but also very insecure. And she does remark many times on how beautiful Taena Merryweather is, at times even seeming to accept she's more attractive than her. 

I might be wrong, but didn't Ned think that Margaery looked nothing like Lyanna when Renly showed him the picture?

Hmm...I don't recall Cercei ever seeming to think Taena is more beautiful than her but I could be wrong.

Also, Ned told Renly that he didn't thing Margaery looked like Lyanna but others thought so.  Perceptions are tricky things.  I've had people tell me my sister resembles this or that actress but I just don't see it.  Also, I've had people tell me they think I look like someone else and, of course, I don't see that either.  Maybe it's because I'm too close to the situation?

But I do believe Martin does use that sort of "transitive property of equality" manner of writing to sometimes cue readers into certain very important details.  

[The Wolves]

16 minutes ago, Prince of the North said:

Hmm...I don't recall Cercei ever seeming to think Taena is more beautiful than her but I could be wrong.

Also, Ned told Renly that he didn't thing Margaery looked like Lyanna but others thought so.  Perceptions are tricky things.  I've had people tell me my sister resembles this or that actress but I just don't see it.  Also, I've had people tell me they think I look like someone else and, of course, I don't see that either.  Maybe it's because I'm too close to the situation?

But I do believe Martin does use that sort of "transitive property of equality" manner of writing to sometimes cue readers into certain very important details.  

What others thought that Margaery looked like Lyanna? 

[Prince of the North]

11 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

What others thought that Margaery looked like Lyanna? 

Just "there were those who said..."  No one specific.  Here's the actual quote in question from AGoT, chapter 27:

Quote

“Yet it seems that he was not invited on these rides.” Ned was not sure what to make of Renly, with all his friendly ways and easy smiles. A few days past, he had taken Ned aside to show him an exquisite rose gold locklet. Inside was a miniature painted in the vivid Myrish style, of a lovely young girl with doe’s eyes and a cascade of soft brown hair. Renly had seemed anxious to know if the girl reminded him of anyone, and when Ned had no answer but a shrug, he had seemed disappointed. The maid was Loras Tyrell’s sister Margaery, he’d confessed, but there were those who said she looked like Lyanna. “No,” Ned had told him, bemused. Could it be that Lord Renly, who looked so like a young Robert, had conceived a passion for a girl he fancied to be a young Lyanna? That struck him as more than passing queer.

Bolding mine.

 

[The Wolves]

8 minutes ago, Prince of the North said:

Just "there were those who said..."  No one specific.  Here's the actual quote in question from AGoT, chapter 27:

 

Renly made that up. Margaery does not look like Lyanna. 

[Prince of the North]

Just now, The Wolves said:

Renly made that up. Margaery does not look like Lyanna. 

Proof?

[The Wolves]

26 minutes ago, Prince of the North said:

Proof?

Who would say that Lyanna and Margaery looked alike in the south? 

Did any of the people south of the Neck pay attention to how a 14yr old girl looked like. Plus Lyanna was 16 when she died her looks probably changed during that time. 

[Prince of the North]

1 minute ago, The Wolves said:

Who would say that Lyanna and Margaery looked alike in the south? 

Did any of the people south of the Neck pay attention to how a 14yr old girl looked like. Plus Lyanna was 16 when she died her looks probably changed during that time. 

And none of that matters.  I get that, in your opinion, Renly "made it up" or is lying.  I just happen to disagree with that and the actual text says "there were those who said she [Margaery] looked like Lyanna".  I see no indication that Renly was lying there.  That's your opinion but it's certainly not proof.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

24 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

Who would say that Lyanna and Margaery looked alike in the south? 

Did any of the people south of the Neck pay attention to how a 14yr old girl looked like. Plus Lyanna was 16 when she died her looks probably changed during that time. 

Plenty of people were paying attention to Lyanna at Harrenhal.  She's at least as famous as Margaery.  

[The Wolves]

57 minutes ago, Prince of the North said:

And none of that matters.  I get that, in your opinion, Renly "made it up" or is lying.  I just happen to disagree with that and the actual text says "there were those who said she [Margaery] looked like Lyanna".  I see no indication that Renly was lying there.  That's your opinion but it's certainly not proof.

Of course it's not proof.

But Ned didn't think she looked like Lyanna so I'm going to take that as proof as people(proabably the Tyrells and some Baratheon men) making it up just to make Margaery into another version of Lyanna just to tempt Robert. 

[The Wolves]

44 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

Plenty of people were paying attention to Lyanna at Harrenhal.  She's at least as famous as Margaery.  

Her brother also said that no Margaery doesn't look like Lyanna, I'll take his word over a couple of people trying to please Renly. 

[Protagoras]

If beauty is in the eye of the beholder it's impossible to be objectively more beautiful, for obvious reasons.

[Lockjaw of House Boltagon]

37 minutes ago, Protagoras said:

If beauty is in the eye of the beholder it's impossible to be objectively more beautiful, for obvious reasons.

Yes. But in the GRRMverse, beauty is in anyone named Targaryen

[Winter's Cold]

Cersei loses her beauty over time. That's why she loses out to someone "younger and more beautiful".