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SanSan next season?


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1 hour ago, Woman of War said:

And Mycah has had a tough death. Actually there are quite a few characters who had a tough life. Should they all get something good as reward?

As interesting as the character of Sandor is - the show did not go the route of changing his character into a more socially compatible personality. Actually his grotesque and sometimes hilarious cynicism is the essence of Sandor's character. Horror coming with its own comic relief. Sandor is not toned down, he is not "redeemed" as in having learned a different approach to life. We only cheer for him because he chops the right people apart, those who are the bad guys. But he gluttons in in killing just like he did before, casually taking the boots of the man he just insisted to kill,  while the guy is still choking.

 

Okay a couple of things here. When Beric says to Sandor “you can help more than you have harmed Clegane” or whatever it seems, by the look Sandor gave, that line did have some impact on Sandor.

Here is the clip:

Click Here

Also, earlier in the season Sandor does say “If the gods are real why haven’t they punished me.”

So, I think it’s a bit of an ass pull here to say that Sandor hasn’t changed or, at least, that he is simply a mindless killer or that he lacks any notion of ethical behavior, his killings of the people that murdered what might have been the closest thing Sandor ever had as a friend notwithstanding.

Is Sandor a complete angel here? No he is not. But, then again, not every one can be St. Tyrion, patron saint of the white wash.

And no, not everyone roots for Sandor simply to see him just kill people and then do or say something “bad ass”. 

I root for Sandor because I think he wants to be a good man, even though he struggles to get there. I find that kind of struggle to be interesting. And the fact is that his desire “to do better” seems to have brought forth because of Sansa Stark. 

1 hour ago, Woman of War said:

Sandor is still someone who lives by the sword and who will die by the sword though he might die fighting the good fight. He has not been changed by his near death experience. And I guess he might die for Arya or for Sansa. Or he will die because of Sansa, she sending him to his death for her revenge.

He’s the kind of guy that goes into combat following the orders of people like St. Tyrion. And let’s make no mistake, St. Tyrion intends to use mass violence to achieve political ends. He gives the orders to guys and gals like Sandor do the fighting. You can say St. Tyrion’s goals are justified here or whatever, helping Dany take down Cersei, but at the end of the day both Dany and Tyrion will send in guys and gals like Sandor to do the fighting and dying.

Sandor is a professional soldier. Just like Brienne is or Barristan was. Why do you have a problem with that?

Also, I’m not sure why you’re so certain that Sandor will die.

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11 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Also, earlier in the season Sandor does earlier say “If the gods are real why haven’t the punished me.”

Agree with your points. Also the answer was, "They have." So he's already been punished. They've absolved him on the show, too. He's paid a price, and now... he's going to do good. Also they clearly showed he cares for Sansa, in a bunch of scenes, but she clearly means a lot to him...

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The more it's described the more I feel they would be a great fit. I actually sincerely hope it happens. Yea he's battle hardened but that's good in this world and certainly would make for a proper Stark (or would she become a Clegane?) and he's been set for moral retuning by his time with Brother Ray. I guess the only thing we have to worry about is how Sansa would feel towards him. She's kinda hardened and not really emotional right now and I don't she would have many romantic moments with him.

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15 minutes ago, Asvpxkvng said:

The more it's described the more I feel they would be a great fit. I actually sincerely hope it happens. Yea he's battle hardened but that's good in this world and certainly would make for a proper Stark (or would she become a Clegane?) and he's been set for moral retuning by his time with Brother Ray. I guess the only thing we have to worry about is how Sansa would feel towards him. She's kinda hardened and not really emotional right now and I don't she would have many romantic moments with him.

There is a part of the history of ASOIAF where a man took his wifes name because there was nobody to further the name of that house. Sandor doesn't really care about titles so.... :D

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9 hours ago, Leticia Stark said:

I can see this happening. He'll tell Sansa and Jon everything he knows about Littlefinger, what he did with Ned, and this will be his end. 

Okay but how does all this SanSan thing play out in the books? Sandor is most likely the gravedigger in the books around the Riverlands area I suppose where Brienne spotted em. Does he connect with the BwoB like the show except with LS instead of Sansa? Does Sandor just take the future role of Harry the Heir of the Vale? Or do they really end up with each other, meeting again as totally different people, Beauty and the Beast style.

What everyone is talking about here is merely show talk and yes the show is deviated from the books but I don't think by that far yet. I don't even think D&D would deviate from the books that far or else the theory of SanSan must play out in the books somehow and then wait for it....

 

... CLEGANEBOWL!

It would be nice to give Sansa and Cersei their champions to finally duke it out

 

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21 minutes ago, tmug said:

Okay but how does all this SanSan thing play out in the books? Sandor is most likely the gravedigger in the books around the Riverlands area I suppose where Brienne spotted em. Does he connect with the BwoB like the show except with LS instead of Sansa? Does Sandor just take the future role of Harry the Heir of the Vale? Or do they really end up with each other, meeting again as totally different people, Beauty and the Beast style.

What everyone is talking about here is merely show talk and yes the show is deviated from the books but I don't think by that far yet. I don't even think D&D would deviate from the books that far or else the theory of SanSan must play out in the books somehow and then wait for it....

 

... CLEGANEBOWL!

It would be nice to give Sansa and Cersei their champions to finally duke it out

 

That is a good question. I would love to hear what people think about how it might play out in the books.  I'll put my guess in hidden comments because it contains current book events:

Spoiler

She is currently engaged to Harry. However, there is one hedge knight in the Vale who has been looking for Sansa. In my opinion, I think he is going to kidnap Sansa and try to take her back to Kings Landing. This is where I can see Sandor running into Sansa . That is just my opinion though. 

 

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Sandor is right nearby Sansa in the books, and there are hints about more story to come in her chapters. For the show to correct their diversion, by placing him nearby, on a course to meet again, is very telling. Something is going to happen to shake things up in her book story, I don't think things will go as planned at all. And that shaking up is going to involve Sandor.

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1 minute ago, Le Cygne said:

Sandor is right nearby Sansa in the books, and there are hints about more story to come in her chapters. For the show to correct their diversion, by placing him nearby, on a course to meet again, is very telling.

In the books Sansa's position is safest at the Vale. (I guess it didn't make sense in the show for some odd reason) She is the last known Stark to be accounted for and alive, she is the heir to Winterfell as far as anyone knows.

The only way she gets captured or escapes is if she willingly leaves the Vale which would be a gigantic risk for the Lords of the Vale. They know her value and I don't even think Robin's command they would let her free.

So if SanSan does happen in the books, Sansa would pretty much have to leave the Vale like she forgot her purse back at King's Landing or something. 

Dont get me wrong, I liken Sansa and Sandor reuniting rather than Arya and Sandor. There was a meaning to Arya sparing the Hound's life, happens both in book and show (which means it is significant to the 'end game' in my opinion). Sansa could atone for her not trusting the Hound based on his appearance alone, in hindsight Sansa would have been better off escaping with Sandor at the Blackwater battle rather than escaping with Littlefinger after the Purple Wedding. The man who valiantly saved her from getting assaulted to the other man who handed her over to be assaulted. One is a beastly, burned dog and the other is a frail, squeaky-clean bird of a man.

 

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Books, something is about to go down. All signs of it. And he's right nearby. Show diverges from books, then puts him right nearby again. /story wants him nearby

Also interesting, that scene where he said he always wanted Valyrian steel... he needs a good sword.

That Valyrian steel? I always wanted some Valyrian steel.

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5 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

 

Okay a couple of things here. When Beric says to Sandor “you can help more than you have harmed Clegane” or whatever it seems, by the look Sandor gave, that line did have some impact on Sandor.

Here is the clip:

Click Here

Also, earlier in the season Sandor does say “If the gods are real why haven’t they punished me.”

So, I think it’s a bit of an ass pull here to say that Sandor hasn’t changed or, at least, that he is simply a mindless killer or that he lacks any notion of ethical behavior, his killings of the people that murdered what might have been the closest thing Sandor ever had as a friend notwithstanding.

Is Sandor a complete angel here? No he is not. But, then again, not every one can be St. Tyrion, patron saint of the white wash.

And no, not everyone roots for Sandor simply to see him just kill people and then do or say something “bad ass”. 

I root for Sandor because I think he wants to be a good man, even though he struggles to get there. I find that kind of struggle to be interesting. And the fact is that his desire “to do better” seems to have brought forth because of Sansa Stark. 

He’s the kind of guy that goes into combat following the orders of people like St. Tyrion. And let’s make no mistake, St. Tyrion intends to use mass violence to achieve political ends. He gives the orders to guys and gals like Sandor do the fighting. You can say St. Tyrion’s goals are justified here or whatever, helping Dany take down Cersei, but at the end of the day both Dany and Tyrion will send in guys and gals like Sandor to do the fighting and dying.

Sandor is a professional soldier. Just like Brienne is or Barristan was. Why do you have a problem with that?

Also, I’m not sure why you’re so certain that Sandor will die.

I root for Sandor as well, I want him to become a better man. 

Actually I would want every dark character to become a better person only in some characters I do not see this possibility and, not to forget, we have a story that needs villains.

Now  Sandor is no longer part of the antagonists, he has switched sides storywise long ago. But has he changed his approach to life and death? The show suggests that he will be some Rambo character, doing the right thing by horribly wrong means, not that he will be the responsible soldier or a man with other purposes in life who avoids killing whenever it can be avoided.

Please stop to "St. Tyrion" me! I have always said that nuking the enemy troops at Blackwater was an awful thing that might be called war crime in our world. But then attacking a city is always a war crime and a horrible thing too in our world. I have always said that it has taken from Tyrion's complexity not to present his darker aspects, so I am the wrong address for "St Tyrioning". Apart  from that this is off topic and the show seems to go a different path with Tyrion. In the end he may not apply the means he intended to use, just like Dany. In the end the fight for the throne may be over quite soon for lack of importance. Only 15 episodes to come!

Yes, you are right, Sandor is basically a follower and followers can't wreck as much havoc as those in command, obviously. They have to decide about right and wrong on a smaller scale. But at the moment Sandor is not a professional soldier, he lacks an employer, he decides everything by himself.

I see that you identify very much with Sandor for reasons that are personal and please do not be angry if I dislike some aspects in Sandor for reasons that are equally personal. Remember that I think his character is hugely interesting to me, apart from being fun and wonderfully acted.

Of course I cannot be sure that Sandor will die! Everything we discuss here in these forums and especially in this thread is based on assumptions that are very likely in our own eyes and seriously unlikely in the eyes of some other posters. And which character we like or dislike and which fate we "predict" for him or her tells far more about us than about the characters concerned.

I still think Sandor might die a sad death. But then he might live as happy chicken farmer when all is said and done.

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4 hours ago, TheKnightOfJests said:

There is a part of the history of ASOIAF where a man took his wifes name because there was nobody to further the name of that house. Sandor doesn't really care about titles so.... :D

Hmmm all we need is Bran to either die( Hope not) or just not be able to continue the line(I heard his paralyzed state made him sterile but unconfirmed). Sandor Stark! What a beautiful thing indeed!

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6 hours ago, Bear Claw said:

I just wonder what is going to happen when Brienne (Sansa's sworn sword) meets Sandor. 

She’ll start talking shit about Davos. And Sandor will be like, “please stop talking about Davos. You’re killing me. I’ll do what you want. But, please, for the love of god, stop talking about Davos. I’m tired of hearing you talk about him.”

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3 hours ago, Woman of War said:

Now  Sandor is no longer part of the antagonists, he has switched sides storywise long ago. But has he changed his approach to life and death? The show suggests that he will be some Rambo character, doing the right thing by horribly wrong means, not that he will be the responsible soldier or a man with other purposes in life who avoids killing whenever it can be avoided.

What a bunch of fricking nonsense. There is some real ass pullery going up in here.

Even before his “death”, Sandor has never been a simple mindless killer, lacking all ethical sense. That’s a complete misreading and fucking over of his character. Sure, he was no angel. And sure he was grey and often displayed problematic behavior. But, to say, he was devoid of any ethical sense is just completely wrong. Both in books and in show.

And now that he has been “resurrected”, so to speak, there are clear indications that Sandor is pondering some of the bad stuff he may have done and that he isn’t the simple mindless or indiscriminate killer you like to make him out to be. That is shown in several statements he makes this season.

When pressed about joining the BWB, by both Beric and Thoros, at one point Sandor says, “Lot’s of horrible shit gets done in this world for something larger than ourselves.” Sandor makes this statement because he knows that “causes” may not always be what they are cracked up to be. And he is right to be leery of joining a cause that purports “to be doing something larger than ourselves.” This is not the mindset of a simple mindless and irresponsible killer.

3 hours ago, Woman of War said:

Please stop to "St. Tyrion" me! I have always said that nuking the enemy troops at Blackwater was an awful thing that might be called war crime in our world. But then attacking a city is always a war crime and a horrible thing too in our world. I have always said that it has taken from Tyrion's complexity not to present his darker aspects, so I am the wrong address for "St Tyrioning". Apart  from that this is off topic and the show seems to go a different path with Tyrion. In the end he may not apply the means he intended to use, just like Dany. In the end the fight for the throne may be over quite soon for lack of importance. Only 15 episodes to come!

Anytime, I get a whiff of hypocrisy or double standards, I’m gonna slam it. Better get used to it. Try me.

3 hours ago, Woman of War said:

But at the moment Sandor is not a professional soldier, he lacks an employer, he decides everything by himself.

That’s true for now. But that doesn’t change the fact that from the time he was very young, he has trained to do one thing. And he does that one thing very well.

I think, Sandor will be heading up North and will end up in the “employment” of House Stark. Because House Stark will be the rallying point for the North as it prepares for the Others, and it's been strongly indicated that Sandor will head North for the purpose of fighting the Others, and because of Sandor’s bond with both Sansa and Arya, perhaps the only people that Sandor has ever had any real human connection with over his entire life, and with whom his story is deeply connected with.

And given his prolific skills as a fighter, House Stark will definitely be able to use his services, now that House Stark has to start preparing to defend against the Others.

ETA:

Also, I'll just say, that as Sandor's arc continues over the remainder of GOT, it will probably be the case that I won't always be happy with the way Sandor's use of violence will get depicted. Because that's been the case with a lot of characters on the show, whether it be Sandra smirking while watching a battle or Dany making a bit of a troubling speech to the Dothraki. That's largely because of D & D's need to make characters look "bad ass" or whatever. The fact is that they don't portray the consequences of violence or it's seriousness as well as GRRM does.

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4 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

What a bunch of fricking nonsense. There is some real ass pullery going up in here.

.....

Anytime, I get a whiff of hypocrisy or double standards, I’m gonna slam it. Better get used to it. Try me.

.....

I had  answered to you in a polite way while  you are vulgar and rude. 

Why should I get used to that? Why should I try you? I won't, you  are not worth any discussion efforts if you rant like that and I will never get used to your lack of style.

 

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35 minutes ago, Woman of War said:

I had  answered to you in a polite way while  you are vulgar and rude. 

Why should I get used to that? Why should I try you? I won't, you  are not worth any discussion efforts if you rant like that and I will never get used to your style.

 

Okay, I'm a jerk. I do not care.

Anyway, your rebuttal to my last is what exactly?

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