SanSan next season?

[Newstar]

Sandor will probably reunite with Arya long before he ever sees Sansa. The show has been emphasizing that relationship more in recent seasons, anyway. There might even be a rehash of 4x10, with Pod/Brienne running into Sandor/Arya.

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I hope he will be the one who expose LF to the Starks.

This is a common fan theory, but to me it is completely absurd.

1. There's nothing in the books to suggest that Sandor knows that LF was conspiring with Ned and therefore "betrayed" him. He may not have even seen LF hold a dagger to Ned's throat, since he was fighting and focusing on protecting Joffrey at the time. Even if he did see something, he probably would have assumed that LF was doing his job like a good little Lannister stooge, just like Sandor was. And on that point...

2. Unlike the show, most characters in the books like and trust LF except Varys and Tyrion, both of whom are much smarter than Sandor. There is nothing in the books to suggest that Sandor dislikes LF. When Sandor does dislike someone--Joffrey, Tyrion, etc.--it's pretty obvious.

3. Sandor has no leg to stand on to condemn LF for failing to help Ned. By seizing Ned, LF was just doing his job and serving Joffrey like a good little Lannister minion, just as Sandor was (and as Sandor did for years). Sandor was busy cutting down Ned's men in that moment, if you'll recall, which no doubt facilitated Ned's arrest and detention as much as LF's actions. Besides, Sandor did precisely nothing to help Ned--and did not turn his back on his horrible, abusive king until his own cowardice at Blackwater put him in a position where he had no choice but to do so--so again, he has no leg to stand on. In that respect, he's just as bad as LF.

4. Even if Sandor did know something, he would have known it by the beginning of ACOK. I have no doubt he'd have thrown that in Sansa's face in ACOK at the first available opportunity to shake her out of her trusting complacency about Ned. What better way to disillusion her about her father's wonderfulness by giving her the proof of what a supreme fool he was for trusting a snake like LF? He says nothing about Ned's stupidity in trusting LF when they do discuss Ned, and I suspect that's because he has no idea.

5. Sansa already knows that LF did nothing to help Ned in KL. LF was there when Cersei was strongarming her after Ned's arrest, and LF was there when she made her pitch for mercy. She knows that LF was one of the queen's advisors but Ned was condemned for treason, and she knows that LF remained in Joffrey's good graces, so she knows that he must have gone along with Ned's arrest and imprisonment. Sansa also knows that LF is a bad guy who's only out for himself and no friend to her--she rationalizes it in AFFC by splitting LF into two personas, only one of whom is sinister and dangerous ("Littlefinger")--and she has way more firsthand information on which to base that assessment than Sandor, so what exactly is he going to tell her? "I saw LF cooperate in your dad's arrest"? "LF is a scumbag who will throw others under the bus to get what he wants"? She already knows that. Like, what is she going to say? "Oh my God, LF cannot be trusted??? THIS IS BRAND NEW INFORMATION!!!"

So yeah, this is an absurd theory (to me, anyway) for a number of reasons. I suppose the idea is that the Hound will enlighten Sansa as to LF's "true nature"--as if she doesn't already know what that true nature is and is ignoring it for survival reasons ("Littlefinger" vs. "Petyr")--and she will turn her back on LF forever and gratefully fall into Sandor's fervent embrace. LOL, no.

[TheKnightOfJests]

......... Sandor will win her over with lemon cakes.....

[Le Cygne]

17 minutes ago, TheKnightOfJests said:

......... Sandor will win her over with lemon cakes.....

... and ale... they are going to get sloshed, it is known.

Beautiful women and good ale... Pour our friend some ale... Really good soup. How can a man not keep ale in his home?... Why do men love ale so much?... Good soup and ale... I'll save you a bowl of soup... might even have some ale hidden away...

[Le Cygne]

5 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

I think, Sandor will be heading up North and will end up in the “employment” of House Stark.

I think less as employment, more as "friend"... and then more...  

They gave him a certain amount of independence, which will be nice to see him hold to. The turnaround in this sort of story is that the desired is now the one who desires. And it's also nice for her, because someone was always chosen for her. Now she chooses him.

He was there for her from book 1/season 1 on There's a lot of symbolic wording, like he kneels before her (in this scene in the books). And he gives her his cloak. He chooses to protect her, repeatedly. And he pledges to protect her. And then the big scene...

(And he said ask her who came back for her. And is told, it's never too late to come back.)

[Darksky]

21 hours ago, Karmarni said:

Agree. However, Sansa towers over Emo-Jon, while all the promo pics of Jon and Dany make them look so appealing together. Even I think, I can see that. I say even because Jon's a short dude with a manbun and, well, that's just not very 'manly', imo. Don't get me wrong, I really like the book character.

On the other hand, casting has turned out at as it should, and Sansa and Sandor also look appealing together. Just like Cat and Ned did.

Continuing with this shallow point of view, how do Sansa and Sandor fit? Or look appealing in any way? And like Cat and Ned? The huge age difference and Sandor being ugly af prevents that from being true. Ned and Cat were similar in age and Ned wasn't fugly.

That whole Beauty and the Beast theme, how cliche of Martin that'd be.

[Le Cygne]

Yeah, as opposed to Robb and Talisa, which was an instant classic. Years from now, they'll be making shows and movies with Robb and Talisa as the inspiration. It's not like Jean Cocteau's La Belle et la Bete, which was the inspiration for Sansa and the Hound, is considered a classic or anything.

I still remember that awesome moment when Talisa was beamed down into Westeros. She was cutting off someone's foot, and sassing the King of the North. And then he just gaped at her. And then she sassed him some more. And then they talked. And then they had sex, and got married.

[OldGimletEye]

2 hours ago, Newstar said:

Sandor will probably reunite with Arya long before he ever sees Sansa. The show has been emphasizing that relationship more in recent seasons, anyway. There might even be a rehash of 4x10, with Pod/Brienne running into Sandor/Arya.

This is a common fan theory, but to me it is completely absurd.

1. There's nothing in the books to suggest that Sandor knows that LF was conspiring with Ned and therefore "betrayed" him. He may not have even seen LF hold a dagger to Ned's throat, since he was fighting and focusing on protecting Joffrey at the time. Even if he did see something, he probably would have assumed that LF was doing his job like a good little Lannister stooge, just like Sandor was. And on that point...

No, he obviously wouldn’t have had any knowledge of Ned’s and LF’s prior conversations. Maybe he didn’t see LF holding the knife. But if he did and if he simply conveys what he saw or heard in the throne room that day, then LF surely has lots of explaining to do.

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2. Unlike the show, most characters in the books like and trust LF except Varys and Tyrion, both of whom are much smarter than Sandor. There is nothing in the books to suggest that Sandor dislikes LF. When Sandor does dislike someone--Joffrey, Tyrion, etc.--it's pretty obvious.

Sandor might not be on the same intellectual level as Varys, LF, or Tyrion. But, he ain’t stupid either. And he is not the sort to trust easily either given his life experiences. And he is not the sort to believe that some guy is a great guy just because the guy says so. So, if LF tries to impress Sandor with his smarmy ass smirk and minty fresh breath, I doubt Sandor will buy LF’s bullshit. And if Sandor ever gets wind of LF’s role in Sansa’s marriage to Ramsay, I’m pretty sure that LF will wind up on Sandor’s shit list, like permanently.

2 hours ago, Newstar said:

3. Sandor has no leg to stand on to condemn LF for failing to help Ned. By seizing Ned, LF was just doing his job and serving Joffrey like a good little Lannister minion, just as Sandor was (and as Sandor did for years). Sandor was busy cutting down Ned's men in that moment, if you'll recall, which no doubt facilitated Ned's arrest and detention as much as LF's actions. Besides, Sandor did precisely nothing to help Ned--and did not turn his back on his horrible, abusive king until his own cowardice at Blackwater put him in a position where he had no choice but to do so--so again, he has no leg to stand on. In that respect, he's just as bad as LF.

Except prior to the conflict between Cersei and Ned, Sandor never once held himself out as friend of House Stark. He never tried to represent himself as being bust buds with Ned. Before that, Sandor was known as a Lannister bannerman, who would fight for the Lannisters if told too. No one saw Sandor as being anything else. Sandor never represented himself as being anything else but that. Everyone expected Sandor to fight for the Lannisters. That’s what people from his class and background do.

And the fact of the matter is that generally people respect these feudal bonds in Westeros, even the Starks. Given Ned Starks condemnation of Jaime, for killing Aerys, one of the biggest assholes in Westerosi history, even he would have to have some respect for Sandor’s loyalty. If Ned Stark gave an order to one of his men, I doubt he would appreciate it if the guy sat there and said,”Gee I wonder if this command is optional.”

People like Sandor Clegane do not get to decide what conflicts their masters will engage in. Nor are they asked about their opinions are over political disputes. Those kind of decisions are for highborn lords. Nobody gives a fuck what the opinion of the grandson of a kennel master is on those matters.

And it’s factually wrong to assert that Sandor didn’t turn his back on Joffrey, at least to some extent, before the Blackwater both books and show. In the books, Joffrey’s tourney, he helped to cover up Sansa’s lie. Also, he seemingly, covered up Sansa’s thoughts to kill Joffrey. He further helped to cover up Sansa’s lie to Trant and mockingly called Joffrey a “brave boy.” And he then he shouted “enough” while Sansa was getting beaten. And it’s suggested somewhat that he may have been willing to defy Joffrey’s order to beat Sansa. And in the show, Sandor pretty much tells Sansa that he would basically commit treason to protect her from Joffrey.

The Battle Of The Blackwater may have been the event that ultimately caused Sandor to break from the Lannisters, but it is highly misleading to suggest that his loyalty to Joffrey was not eroding before that point.

And as for you calling Sandor “a coward”, let’s remember at the beginning of the books Ned tells Bran that the only time a man can be brave is when he is afraid. And Sandor just isn’t afraid of fire, he is absolutely terrified of it, and probably irrationally so, but that is understandable given the physical and emotional trauma it inflicted on him as a child. Yet, in the books, at least, he seemingly made several sorties with wildfire blazing all around him before he was drained emotionally. Even good soldiers can break with enough strain.

2 hours ago, Newstar said:

4. Even if Sandor did know something, he would have known it by the beginning of ACOK. I have no doubt he'd have thrown that in Sansa's face in ACOK at the first available opportunity to shake her out of her trusting complacency about Ned. What better way to disillusion her about her father's wonderfulness by giving her the proof of what a supreme fool he was for trusting a snake like LF? He says nothing about Ned's stupidity in trusting LF when they do discuss Ned, and I suspect that's because he has no idea.

Again, he simply just needs to tell what he saw. And then LF can try to explain his way out of it, which might not work out too well for LF, since Sansa doesn’t trust him, as you yourself have explained.

2 hours ago, Newstar said:

5. Sansa already knows that LF did nothing to help Ned in KL. LF was there when Cersei was strongarming her after Ned's arrest, and LF was there when she made her pitch for mercy. She knows that LF was one of the queen's advisors but Ned was condemned for treason, and she knows that LF remained in Joffrey's good graces, so she knows that he must have gone along with Ned's arrest and imprisonment. Sansa also knows that LF is a bad guy who's only out for himself and no friend to her--she rationalizes it in AFFC by splitting LF into two personas, only one of whom is sinister and dangerous ("Littlefinger")--and she has way more firsthand information on which to base that assessment than Sandor, so what exactly is he going to tell her? "I saw LF cooperate in your dad's arrest"? "LF is a scumbag who will throw others under the bus to get what he wants"? She already knows that. Like, what is she going to say? "Oh my God, LF cannot be trusted??? THIS IS BRAND NEW INFORMATION!!!"

Perhaps there is a difference between doing nothing to help Ned and actively participating in Ned’s downfall. Doing nothing to help Ned is understandable because LF would have put his own behind at risk to help Ned. But, actively participating to help bring down Ned’s downfall is quite another, which putting a knife to Ned’s throat highly suggest, since there was no really good reason for LF to do that, other to make the point that he had fucked over Ned Stark and wasn’t merely a passive observer. And LF putting a dagger on Ned’s throat and saying, “I told you not to trust me” suggest that LF wasn’t merely a passive party in the conflict between LF and Ned and had actively betrayed Ned.

2 hours ago, Newstar said:

So yeah, this is an absurd theory (to me, anyway) for a number of reasons. I suppose the idea is that the Hound will enlighten Sansa as to LF's "true nature"--as if she doesn't already know what that true nature is and is ignoring it for survival reasons ("Littlefinger" vs. "Petyr")--and she will turn her back on LF forever and gratefully fall into Sandor's fervent embrace. LOL, no.

Given the fact that Sansa already knows that LF can’t really be trusted, the additional information about him holding a knife to Ned’s throat, might really start the wheels turning in her head. And given that she knows he is not honest, she is less likely to buy whatever bullshit he tries to sell over his holding a knife to Ned’s throat.

Also, in the books, LF makes a bet against Sandor, thinking that he is an expert on the inner workings of Sandor’s mind, and believes that Sandor will simply play nice with his Lannister masters. LF of course loses that bet. Pair that with what Sandor might have observed in the throne room and it certainly raises an eyebrow.

Accordingly, the idea of Sandor delivering a bit of information about LF, that might lead to LF’s downfall isn’t as far fetched as you would like to make it.

[Ruhail]

I think in many years from now they'll take Yara and the fucking the tits off her prostitute as an example of a new romantic trope called brute and the maiden very sure to become a consistently reworked literary theme.

[OldGimletEye]

53 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Yeah, as opposed to Robb and Talisa, which was an instant classic.

Oh yes, Robb and Talisa, I just remembered. How could anyone forget about that? Oh wait, damn...didn't I  just do that?

[Newstar]

1 hour ago, OldGimletEye said:

 

Again, he simply just needs to tell what he saw. And then LF can try to explain his way out of it, which might not work out too well for LF, since Sansa doesn’t trust him, as you yourself have explained.

Perhaps there is a difference between doing nothing to help Ned and actively participating in Ned’s downfall. Doing nothing to help Ned is understandable because LF would have put his own behind at risk to help Ned. But, actively participating to help bring down Ned’s downfall is quite another, which putting a knife to Ned’s throat highly suggest, since there was no really good reason for LF to do that, other to make the point that he had fucked over Ned Stark and wasn’t merely a passive observer. And LF putting a dagger on Ned’s throat and saying, “I told you not to trust me” suggest that LF wasn’t merely a passive party in the conflict between LF and Ned and had actively betrayed Ned.

Given the fact that Sansa already knows that LF can’t really be trusted, the additional information about him holding a knife to Ned’s throat, might really start the wheels turning in her head. And given that she knows he is not honest, she is less likely to buy whatever bullshit he tries to sell over his holding a knife to Ned’s throat.

Also, in the books, LF makes a bet against Sandor, thinking that he is an expert on the inner workings of Sandor’s mind, and believes that Sandor will simply play nice with his Lannister masters. LF of course loses that bet. Pair that with what Sandor might have observed in the throne room and it certainly raises an eyebrow.

Accordingly, the idea of Sandor delivering a bit of information about LF, that might lead to LF’s downfall isn’t as far fetched as you would like to make it.

Sandor would only say something about LF holding a knife to Ned's throat if he believed there was something remarkable about it, but there is nothing in the books to suggest that Sandor would have characterized LF's actions as odd, or that he did, to the point that he would raise them as significant. The evidence indicates that Sandor had no idea that LF was doing anything other than what he was doing--serving the Lannisters to apprehend Ned--which is exactly what he would have expected LF to do in that situation. He saw what he expected to see without attaching any special significance to it. He has said nothing to anyone to indicate otherwise. If Sandor didn't see anything in AGOT to cause him to remark upon it in ACOK, especially when he was trying to shatter Sansa's illusions about Ned, he didn't see anything.

He has shown no animosity towards Littlefinger, as opposed to his subtle and occasionally not so subtle animosity towards Joffrey and Tyrion. Sandor "ain't stupid," but a lot of people who fall in between Ned and Varys in the intelligence/cunning scale have been completely hoodwinked by LF. Even Book Tyrion still hasn't figured out how LF managed to frame him for murder or that LF took Sansa, and he's far more intelligent than Sandor. The TV image of LF as this snake no one likes or trusts is not in keeping with the books. LF is not on Sandor's shitlist currently, and even if LF winds up on Sandor's shitlist at some point in the future, Sandor is no player. LF flosses his teeth with people like Sandor. If he goes up against LF, he will lose.

As for your claim that it's "factually wrong" to assert that Sandor didn't turn his back on Joffrey, he didn't try to leave KL until it was clear he would be executed for desertion if he didn't. His small gestures of rebellion--covering up Sansa's lie, shouting "Enough"--are not "turning his back on Joffrey," and I'm surprised you would argue that they were. You seem to be saying speaking up at a meeting when your boss is being awful is the same as quitting your job and leaving the building. Not so much.

Furthermore, even if he implied in the show that he would commit treason to protect her from Joffrey, talk is cheap, or as they say in ASOIAF, words are wind. It's easy to spout off about how he would hypothetically protect her from Joffrey, quite another thing to do it, as shown by him standing by and letting Joffrey's guards beat her, as he put it in the books. Sandor talked a good game about not letting anyone hurt her in the books and the show, but he was pretty shit at stopping Joffrey and the kingsguards from hurting her, by his own admission in the books to Arya ("I stood there," etc. etc.). Sandor was content to make only those little acts of rebellion where he could without doing anything too blatant that would get him executed, until he deserts during Blackwater and realizes he's going to die unless he gets out of KL. It's at that point and no earlier that he offers to get Sansa out of KL. If he hadn't turned craven at Blackwater and had his hand forced, it's very likely that he would have kept on keeping on until LF was able to spring Sansa.

Finally, if "the only time a man can be brave is when he's afraid," according to Ned, and if Sandor's response to his fear was to run away screaming, leaving Tyrion of all people to clean up his mess, that pretty much says it all.

 

[Meera of Tarth]

2 hours ago, Darksky said:

Continuing with this shallow point of view, how do Sansa and Sandor fit? Or look appealing in any way? And like Cat and Ned? The huge age difference and Sandor being ugly af prevents that from being true. Ned and Cat were similar in age and Ned wasn't fugly.

That whole Beauty and the Beast theme, how cliche of Martin that'd be.

I thunk Karmarni refers to that they look appealing in personality and so they can fit as a couple. the Hound is not particularly handsome because he has half his face burned but I think that he looked better this season, the way his hair was styled made him look handsome imo.

as for their age difference I agree; but Sansa has already been married to Tyrion who was as old as show Sandor and Ramsay was also a little older than her.

about the batb cliche.....why should that be a cliche? Isn't it more cliche to make her marry someone very handsome?

[Le Cygne]

2 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

<snip>

Great points all. Sandor risked his life for Sansa repeatedly, and pledged to do so again. And he would be no good to her at all if he was dead and gone, which he would be if he openly defied Joffrey beyond what he did (and he came extremely close to that point). He didn't want to leave her, that's clear, and that he regrets not doing more, when he did so much, is a classic expression of love. (Also you are right, they are setting him up as the contrast to other men, notably LF, just as GRRM is in the books.)

[Le Cygne]

39 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I thunk Karmarni refers to that they look appealing in personality and so they can fit as a couple. the Hound is not particularly handsome because he has half his face burned but I think that he looked better this season, the way his hair was styled made him look handsome imo.

as for their age difference I agree; but Sansa has already been married to Tyrion who was as old as show Sandor and Ramsay was also a little older than her.

about the batb cliche.....why should that be a cliche? Isn't it more cliche to make her marry someone very handsome?

Good points. I think they look nice together... Houndsome...  

[OldGimletEye]

1 hour ago, Newstar said:

Sandor would only say something about LF holding a knife to Ned's throat if he believed there was something remarkable about it, but there is nothing in the books to suggest that Sandor would have characterized LF's actions as odd, or that he did, to the point that he would raise them as significant. The evidence indicates that Sandor had no idea that LF was doing anything other than what he was doing--serving the Lannisters to apprehend Ned--which is exactly what he would have expected LF to do in that situation. He saw what he expected to see without attaching any special significance to it. He has said nothing to anyone to indicate otherwise. If Sandor didn't see anything in AGOT to cause him to remark upon it in ACOK, especially when he was trying to shatter Sansa's illusions about Ned, he didn't see anything.

Perhaps at the time when he saw LF holding a knife to Ned’s throat he though it might be rather unremarkable. But, if he goes to Winterfell, and sees LF creeping around the area, acting like he is the Starks best ol’ friend, he might very well take different view of LF’s actions.

Sandor knows why he has switched loyalties. He may very well wonder why LF’s has purportedly switched his.

And the thing is that Sandor is known as a fighter. So it’s not odd that Sandor engaged in physical violence against Stark men in the throne room. LF, however, is not known for his martial prowess. So in hindsight, it may come off as odd that LF, himself, decided to pull a knife on Ned. That is not LF’s usual mode of operation. He usually leaves violence to others. Why did LF do it then? It seems to have been for the purpose of letting Ned know that he, LF, had betrayed him.

1 hour ago, Newstar said:

He has shown no animosity towards Littlefinger, as opposed to his subtle and occasionally not so subtle animosity towards Joffrey and Tyrion. Sandor "ain't stupid," but a lot of people who fall in between Ned and Varys in the intelligence/cunning scale have been completely hoodwinked by LF. Even Book Tyrion still hasn't figured out how LF managed to frame him for murder or that LF took Sansa, and he's far more intelligent than Sandor. The TV image of LF as this snake no one likes or trusts is not in keeping with the books. LF is not on Sandor's shitlist currently, and even if LF winds up on Sandor's shitlist at some point in the future, Sandor is no player. LF flosses his teeth with people like Sandor. If he goes up against LF, he will lose.

Sandor may not be smarter than Ned. But, the difference between them is that Sandor isn’t as trusting as Ned. He does not trust people easily. He’s always been skeptical about people’s motives. Sandor is the one that told Sansa in KL that everyone down there is a liar. So I find it hard to believe that Sandor would in any way trust LF. So no, I don’t see Sandor “losing” to LF for the simple reason I don’t see him easily falling for LF’s bullshit.

And by the way, there isn't going to be any "game playing" between LF and Sandor. Sandor will just say what he knows. And if Sansa or maybe even, Jon, tells Sandor to do something to LF, then he's dead meat.

1 hour ago, Newstar said:

As for your claim that it's "factually wrong" to assert that Sandor didn't turn his back on Joffrey, he didn't try to leave KL until it was clear he would be executed for desertion if he didn't. His small gestures of rebellion--covering up Sansa's lie, shouting "Enough"--are not "turning his back on Joffrey," and I'm surprised you would argue that they were. You seem to be saying speaking up at a meeting when your boss is being awful is the same as quitting your job and leaving the building. Not so much.

The point is that clearly his loyalty to Joffrey was eroding. Saying that he only turned his back on Joffrey because of the Blackwater is misleading, without adding the details. As the story progresses, it becomes clear that if the choice is between choosing between Sansa and Joffrey, he is picking Sansa’s side. And it is fairly cleared that he had become disenchanted with Joffrey, like when he mocking calls Joffrey a “brave boy”.

And I don’t think your analogy holds here holds much water, unless you’re claiming that quitting you’re job gets your labeled in our society as an “oath breaker” and unless you’re claiming that our society works in the same manner as feudal one where the bonds of fidelity are taken quite seriously. Surely, your not arguing that. I’d be surprised if you were.

1 hour ago, Newstar said:

Furthermore, even if he implied in the show that he would commit treason to protect her from Joffrey, talk is cheap, or as they say in ASOIAF, words are wind. It's easy to spout off about how he would hypothetically protect her from Joffrey, quite another thing to do it, as shown by him standing by and letting Joffrey's guards beat her, as he put it in the books. Sandor talked a good game about not letting anyone hurt her in the books and the show, but he was pretty shit at stopping Joffrey and the kingsguards from hurting her, by his own admission in the books to Arya ("I stood there," etc. etc.). Sandor was content to make only those little acts of rebellion where he could without doing anything too blatant that would get him executed, until he deserts during Blackwater and realizes he's going to die unless he gets out of KL. It's at that point and no earlier that he offers to get Sansa out of KL. If he hadn't turned craven at Blackwater and had his hand forced, it's very likely that he would have kept on keeping on until LF was able to spring Sansa.

By all means, hand wave away the fact that Sandor did tell Sansa he would committ treason to protect her. I guess that’s what happens when one’s assertion gets flatly contradicted.

After reading the above, I’ve come to the conclusion that there is no attempt here to even understand what kind of society Sandor operates in. It seems to me that you believe that Sandor can just simply leave his job, like we might do in our present society, without much consequence. It’s not like in the feudal society in which Sandor lives he can just up and quit his position and find a position elsewhere. The employment at will doctrine isn’t a feature of his society. And it’s not like he can just up and quit the Lannisters and enroll in black smithing school or something.

And if your going to suggest here that Sandor wasn’t willing to put his money where is mouth was, he did do that. He did it when he saved Sansa from being raped at the KL riot. That rescue surely carried enormous personal risks for him. He could have simply left Sansa alone and then later claimed that his duty was protecting Joffrey.

And it’s not clear to me why you think it would be particularly prudent for Sandor to pick a fight with all the Gold Cloaks and with the Lannister Army, present in KL, in order to help Sansa. All that would have done is gotten him killed and probably made things worse for Sansa.

And it’s not clear to me why you think it would have been a great idea for Sandor, prior to the Blackwater, to try to spring Sansa from KL. Surely, you can see that Sandor might had some apprehension at the notion of him, a well known and wanted outlaw, tromping around with a highborn girl. It’s not like Sandor had the resources or connections to get Sansa out of KL safely.

And the fact that Sandor tells Arya that he didn’t help Sansa enough means what exactly? Maybe it means that Sandor is being very hard on himself because he really does care about Sansa a lot. Maybe that’s the whole point there.

1 hour ago, Newstar said:

Finally, if "the only time a man can be brave is when he's afraid," according to Ned, and if Sandor's response to his fear was to run away screaming, leaving Tyrion of all people to clean up his mess, that pretty much says it all.

No actually it doesn’t. I’ve explained Sandor’s deep psychological fear of fire, because of his childhood trauma, and the fact that he lead several sorties where the wildfire was blazing. By all means, though, hand wave that away.

[Newstar]

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Perhaps at the time when he saw LF holding a knife to Ned’s throat he though it might be rather unremarkable. But, if he goes to Winterfell, and sees LF creeping around the area, acting like he is the Starks best ol’ friend, he might very well take different view of LF’s actions.

Sandor knows why he has switched loyalties. He may very well wonder why LF’s has purportedly switched his.

Sandor isn't Sherlock Holmes. He does not have a keen, calculating political mind and he isn't overly intelligent, and even if he did check those two boxes, if he didn't see anything remarkable about LF's behaviour at the time--and all evidence indicates that he didn't, as you seem to have conceded--he would be unlikely to make that sort of connection years after the fact. If Sandor was too dumb to pick up on the oddness at the time and to follow up on it, he won't be inclined to do so years after the fact.

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Sandor may not be smarter than Ned. But, the difference between them is that Sandor isn’t as trusting as Ned. He does not trust people easily. He’s always been skeptical about people’s motives. Sandor is the one that told Sansa in KL that everyone down there is a liar. So I find it hard to believe that Sandor would in any way trust LF.

Who cares about Sandor's trust issues? LF has regularly wiped the floor with people much smarter than Ned who didn't trust him. Tyrion didn't trust LF as far as he could throw him and LF still ruined his life. LF would eat Sandor for breakfast.

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And by the way, there isn't going to be any "game playing" between LF and Sandor. Sandor will just say what he knows.

As I've said, Sandor has no information that Sansa wouldn't have. "Saying what he knows" adds nothing. TV Sansa already knows that LF is an untrustworthy piece of garbage who only serves himself, but she is still hanging out with him and talking about her childhood. Book Sansa also knows that LF is bad news. Sandor can contribute nothing to her understanding of LF. Jon already knows that LF sold Sansa to the Boltons, resulting in her rape and abuse at Ramsay's hands, and that he can't be trusted; you'll note that he hasn't executed LF or sent him packing yet. This idea that Sandor's news would change anything for either of them just seems nonsensical to me.

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The point is that clearly his loyalty to Joffrey was eroding. Saying that he only turned his back on Joffrey because of the Blackwater is misleading, without adding the details. As the story progresses, it becomes clear that if the choice is between choosing between Sansa and Joffrey, he is picking Sansa’s side. And it is fairly cleared that he had become disenchanted with Joffrey, like when he mocking calls Joffrey a “brave boy”.

 

We don't know how long he felt that way about Joffrey. We do know that he didn't do anything to leave KL until his desertion forced his hand. No matter how "disenchanted" he may have been with Joffrey and no matter how many small gestures of rebellion he made, he made not one definitive, irrevocable move in that direction until he had no choice. Very telling.

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By all means, hand wave away the fact that Sandor did tell Sansa he would committ treason to protect her. I guess that’s what happens when one’s assertion gets flatly contradicted.

What assertion? Talk is cheap. He didn't say he would commit treason to protect her; in the show, he said he might be the only thing standing between her and her beloved king, which was pretty rich given that he had stood by and let Joffrey and his kingsguards abuse her over and over. "It'll be different this time, baby, I swear!" LOL, no.

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 It seems to me that you believe that Sandor can just simply leave his job, like we might do in our present society, without much consequence.

The point is that he did pack up and leave KL and try to take Sansa with him, meaning it was an option for him. He was able to escape KL when push came to shove. However, he only did it when he had no choice. He did nothing to save her from Joffrey and KL until his hand was forced, so he doesn't get a cookie for making an offer he never would have made had his other options not been eliminated. He was headed out of town in any event, so he decided he may as well offer to take Sansa with him. We've seen Sandor's versions of helping Sansa--draping the cloak over her (tossing it in the books), saving her from rapist randos, advising her to give Joffrey what he wants--and none of them included rescuing her from the real threat, Joffrey and his goons...until, of course, he conveniently ran out of other options, then he's all "No one would ever hurt you again." Hmmm.

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He did it when he saved Sansa from being raped at the KL riot.

Sansa remained at Joffrey's mercy to be abused whenever he liked it, and Sandor didn't make a move to try to spring her until he had no other options. Nor did Sansa's near miss at the KL riot light a fire under Sandor to rescue her from Joffrey once and for all. No, it was his humiliation at Blackwater and his desertion that spurred his offer.

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And it’s not clear to me why you think it would be particularly prudent for Sandor to pick a fight with all the Gold Cloaks and with the Lannister Army, present in KL, in order to help Sansa. All that would have done is gotten him killed and probably made things worse for Sansa.

My point is that he was capable of turning his back on the KG and escaping from KL undetected since he managed to make it out of KL safely, but he only made that offer and ultimately escaped once the KG was closed to him. Whatever his fears about the goldcloaks and the kingsguards, those fears didn't stop him from offering to spring Sansa and successfully escaping from KL once push came to shove. Rescuing Sansa wasn't sufficient motivation, though; he needed to be kicked out for desertion before he lifted a finger to try to rid her of Joffrey. There was nothing noble about it. He was on his way out of KL, anyway, so why not offer to take Sansa along for the ride?

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And it’s not clear to me why you think it would have been a great idea for Sandor, prior to the Blackwater, to try to spring Sansa from KL. Surely, you can see that Sandor might had some apprehension at the notion of him, a well known and wanted outlaw, tromping around with a highborn girl. It’s not like Sandor had the resources or connections to get Sansa out of KL safely.

He was willing to try at Blackwater, once he knew he would be executed for desertion if he stuck around. He wasn't willing to try before. There's no indication that Sandor ever expressed an interest in saving Sansa permanently from Joffrey before Blackwater. In the books, prior to Blackwater he uttered not one word to Sansa suggesting that he'd protect her from Joffrey on an ongoing basis, because of course he had no such intention. He knew Sansa was being abused regularly and would continue to be abused by Joffrey until someone removed her from KL and did nothing about it--as he admits to Arya--until his desertion forced his hand.

There was nothing noble or romantic about Sandor offering to save Sansa when he never planned to save her from Joffrey until his other options were eliminated, and when he created that opportunity by deserting the battlefield (because of his own cowardice). Men were dying because of his cowardly bullshit while he was off making grand speeches to Sansa. Nothing noble about that. Making no gesture to save someone until it's convenient for you is the opposite of noble. Leaving your fellow soldiers to die because you're a coward while you're making your big drunken pitch to the girl you're infatuated with is the opposite of noble.

LF formed a plan to rid her of Joffrey permanently. That's why Sansa in both mediums has such mixed feelings about LF: whatever he did do, and whatever his responsibility for her present circumstances, he did put a permanent end to Joffrey abusing her, something Sandor never tried to do until it was convenient for him. Actions speak  louder than words, and Sandor's inaction spoke volumes.

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And the fact that Sandor tells Arya that he didn’t help Sansa enough means what exactly? Maybe it means that Sandor is being very hard on himself because he really does care about Sansa a lot. Maybe that’s the whole point there.

He is acknowledging the hollowness of his own promises that he would protect Sansa, when he allowed her to be abused over and over again and did virtually nothing to stop it (and yes, shouting "Enough!" once over multiple incidents of abuse is virtually nothing).

 

 

 

[OldGimletEye]

13 hours ago, Newstar said:

Sandor isn't Sherlock Holmes. He does not have a keen, calculating political mind and he isn't overly intelligent, and even if he did check those two boxes, if he didn't see anything remarkable about LF's behaviour at the time--and all evidence indicates that he didn't, as you seem to have conceded--he would be unlikely to make that sort of connection years after the fact. If Sandor was too dumb to pick up on the oddness at the time and to follow up on it, he won't be inclined to do so years after the fact.

Yeah right. Because if he sees LF in Winterfell, he’s not going to wonder what LF is doing there. He’s not going to wonder why the man who held a dagger to Ned’s throat is now purporting to be friend of the Starks. Sandor isn’t as stupid as you make him out to be, even if he doesn’t routinely play the little con games that LF does.

13 hours ago, Newstar said:

Who cares about Sandor's trust issues? LF has regularly wiped the floor with people much smarter than Ned who didn't trust him. Tyrion didn't trust LF as far as he could throw him and LF still ruined his life. LF would eat Sandor for breakfast.

And what if the “game” that Sandor wants to play with LF is “I grab the back of your head, then proceed to smash your face into a wall.” Tell us, how does LF wins that game? Tell us all, what possibly could LF try to offer Sandor? Not much the way I see it. And whatever, LF tries to sell, I have a hard time seeing Sandor buying it.

Plus there is the plain old fact that LF’s cover has been blown. Sansa knows he’s snake. She told Jon he’s a snake. If Sandor is told he’s snake by either Jon or Sansa, then he really doesn’t have a reason to fall for LF’s crap, now does he?

13 hours ago, Newstar said:

As I've said, Sandor has no information that Sansa wouldn't have. "Saying what he knows" adds nothing. TV Sansa already knows that LF is an untrustworthy piece of garbage who only serves himself, but she is still hanging out with him and talking about her childhood. Book Sansa also knows that LF is bad news. Sandor can contribute nothing to her understanding of LF. Jon already knows that LF sold Sansa to the Boltons, resulting in her rape and abuse at Ramsay's hands, and that he can't be trusted; you'll note that he hasn't executed LF or sent him packing yet. This idea that Sandor's news would change anything for either of them just seems nonsensical to me.

Well except, of course, for the fact that LF did hold a dagger to Ned’s throat. Jon or Sansa might be highly interested in that little piece of information. And if they get that information, LF’s going to have a bit of explaining to do isn’t he? And given that neither Sansa nor Jon trust LF, LF’s explanation might not cut it, since both Sansa and Jon know LF is full of crap, which you have both explained and acknowledged.

13 hours ago, Newstar said:

We don't know how long he felt that way about Joffrey. We do know that he didn't do anything to leave KL until his desertion forced his hand. No matter how "disenchanted" he may have been with Joffrey and no matter how many small gestures of rebellion he made, he made not one definitive, irrevocable move in that direction until he had no choice. Very telling.

But, the point is that he did come to feel that way about Joffrey. And the fact that he didn’t leave until forced by the events of the Blackwater doesn’t change that.

And like I said earlier, it’s not really easy for somebody like Sandor to just get up and leave, given the society he lives in. People take these feudal bonds and oaths quite seriously. It’s not like somebody can just pull a Johnny Paycheck and just say, “Take this job and shove it...”

13 hours ago, Newstar said:

What assertion? Talk is cheap. He didn't say he would commit treason to protect her; in the show, he said he might be the only thing standing between her and her beloved king, which was pretty rich given that he had stood by and let Joffrey and his kingsguards abuse her over and over. "It'll be different this time, baby, I swear!" LOL, no.

The only thing LOL here is your preposterous suggestion that Sandor should have just casually decided to take on the entire KG, the Gold Cloaks, and half the Lannister Army, all by himself. That would have been a disaster for him and probably Sansa. He had to walk a very fine line.

But, yeah, Sandor did suggest in the show, that if push came to shove, he would betray Joffrey for Sansa, which was pretty consistent with his book character.

13 hours ago, Newstar said:

The point is that he did pack up and leave KL and try to take Sansa with him, meaning it was an option for him. He was able to escape KL when push came to shove. However, he only did it when he had no choice. He did nothing to save her from Joffrey and KL until his hand was forced, so he doesn't get a cookie for making an offer he never would have made had his other options not been eliminated. He was headed out of town in any event, so he decided he may as well offer to take Sansa with him. We've seen Sandor's versions of helping Sansa--draping the cloak over her (tossing it in the books), saving her from rapist randos, advising her to give Joffrey what he wants--and none of them included rescuing her from the real threat, Joffrey and his goons...until, of course, he conveniently ran out of other options, then he's all "No one would ever hurt you again." Hmmm.

And the point here is that getting Sansa out of KL, finding a safe place for her, and transporting her there, while possibly being pursued by Lannister forces, wouldn’t have been an easy thing to do. This isn’t some kind of bad Rambo movie thing here.

Now, it’s true that Sandor did offer to take her out of KL, when he had to leave the night of the Blackwater. It’s also true that Sandor wasn’t exactly in the best state of mind at the time, being drunk and suffering from battle fatigue. That he wanted to take Sansa with him is understandable for emotional reasons. That he wasn’t thinking clearly there is understandable too.

13 hours ago, Newstar said:

Sansa remained at Joffrey's mercy to be abused whenever he liked it, and Sandor didn't make a move to try to spring her until he had no other options. Nor did Sansa's near miss at the KL riot light a fire under Sandor to rescue her from Joffrey once and for all. No, it was his humiliation at Blackwater and his desertion that spurred his offer.

So Sandor didn’t take significant personal risk in trying to save Sansa from being raped at the KL riot?

13 hours ago, Newstar said:

.My point is that he was capable of turning his back on the KG and escaping from KL undetected since he managed to make it out of KL safely, but he only made that offer and ultimately escaped once the KG was closed to him. Whatever his fears about the goldcloaks and the kingsguards, those fears didn't stop him from offering to spring Sansa and successfully escaping from KL once push came to shove. Rescuing Sansa wasn't sufficient motivation, though; he needed to be kicked out for desertion before he lifted a finger to try to rid her of Joffrey. There was nothing noble about it. He was on his way out of KL, anyway, so why not offer to take Sansa along for the ride?

And my point is that there were understandable reasons why Sandor might have been a bit apprehensive of just leaving KL with Sansa before he was forced to leave the night of the Blackwater. Surely, wondering around Westeros, being a wanted outlaw, maybe having the reputation as an oathbreaker, with no place to go, isn’t a very enticing prospect.

13 hours ago, Newstar said:

He was willing to try at Blackwater, once he knew he would be executed for desertion if he stuck around. He wasn't willing to try before. There's no indication that Sandor ever expressed an interest in saving Sansa permanently from Joffrey before Blackwater. In the books, prior to Blackwater he uttered not one word to Sansa suggesting that he'd protect her from Joffrey on an ongoing basis, because of course he had no such intention. He knew Sansa was being abused regularly and would continue to be abused by Joffrey until someone removed her from KL and did nothing about it--as he admits to Arya--until his desertion forced his hand.

Well Sandor certainly did express an intention to save Sansa from beatings, punishment, and abuse, which he did repeatedly.

As to why he didn’t hatch a plan, before the Blackwater, to get her out of KL permanently, I think I’ve explained that sufficiently.

And the fact Sandor later admits to not doing enough for Sansa is telling about how he feels about her.

13 hours ago, Newstar said:

There was nothing noble or romantic about Sandor offering to save Sansa when he never planned to save her from Joffrey until his other options were eliminated, and when he created that opportunity by deserting the battlefield (because of his own cowardice).

Your slamming Sandor here because:

1. He didn’t make some futile and pointless gesture of trying to fight all the KG, GC, and Lannister Army by himself;

2. Because he didn’t hatch some kind of  escape plan like Rambo Style, even though there would have been significant issues had he tried to do so.

And why do I just think, it’s easy to make the charge of cowardice from the safety and comfort of one’s home? Supposing Sandor was in the modern military and was being court martialed for running. And supposing the defense offered evidence that he was suffering from a specific mental condition and that specific mental condition was the cause of his running. And supposing other evidence was offered that he labored under that condition for several hours in intense combat. You think he would get convicted? Probably not.

Seems like there’s a lot of chicken hawkery up in this mofo right about now.

13 hours ago, Newstar said:

Men were dying because of his cowardly bullshit while he was off making grand speeches to Sansa. 

Men where dying when he was leading them in several sorties

13 hours ago, Newstar said:

Nothing noble about that. Making no gesture to save someone until it's convenient for you is the opposite of noble. Leaving your fellow soldiers to die because you're a coward while you're making your big drunken pitch to the girl you're infatuated with is the opposite of noble.

Most of this sounds like war wimpery. The fact of the matter is that entire situation wasn’t good for anybody. It was bad for Sandor. It was bad for Sansa. And Sandor was in very bad shape when he came into her room that night. And he clearly wasn’t thinking normally. That said, it seems pretty clear his reasons for offering Sansa out of KL was because he did care about her and didn’t want to leave her in KL by herself. His reasons for doing that are humanly understandable, even though he clearly wasn’t thinking very straight. I wouldn’t describe the situation as being more tragic than anything. But, most importantly his offers were sincere even if he was completely in a bad mental state.

13 hours ago, Newstar said:

LF formed a plan to rid her of Joffrey permanently. That's why Sansa in both mediums has such mixed feelings about LF: whatever he did do, and whatever his responsibility for her present circumstances, he did put a permanent end to Joffrey abusing her, something Sandor never tried to do until it was convenient for him. Actions speak  louder than words, and Sandor's inaction spoke volumes.

And LF has vastly more resources to work with, like a place to actually keep her, for one. And please let’s not act like LF helped Sansa for completely altruistic purposes. He clearly sees Sansa was a chip to gain power even if he might desire her.

And with LF, she doesn’t know the full truth about him. With Sandor she does. She knows pretty much what he has done and where he has been.

13 hours ago, Newstar said:

He is acknowledging the hollowness of his own promises that he would protect Sansa, when he allowed her to be abused over and over again and did virtually nothing to stop it (and yes, shouting "Enough!" once over multiple incidents of abuse is virtually nothing).

Right, because defying your liege lord and your prince in the throne room in front of everyone, in a feudal society, is nothing. Makes perfect sense. 

[Ruhail]

21 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Yeah right. Because if he sees LF in Winterfell, he’s not going to wonder what LF is doing there. He’s not going to wonder why the man who held a dagger to Ned’s throat is now purporting to be friend of the Starks. Sandor isn’t as stupid as you make him out to be, even if he doesn’t routinely play the little con games that LF does.

And what if the “game” that Sandor wants to play with LF is “I grab the back of your head, then proceed to smash your face into a wall.” Tell us, how does LF wins that game? Tell us all, what possibly could LF try to offer Sandor? Not much the way I see it. And whatever, LF tries to sell, I have a hard time seeing Sandor buying it.

Plus there is the plain old fact that LF’s cover has been blown. Sansa knows he’s snake. She told Jon he’s a snake. If Sandor is told he’s snake by either Jon or Sansa, then he really doesn’t have a reason to fall for LF’s crap, now does he?

Well except, of course, for the fact that LF did hold a dagger to Ned’s throat. Jon or Sansa might be highly interested in that little piece of information. And if they get that information, LF’s going to have a bit of explaining to do isn’t he? And given that neither Sansa nor Jon trust LF, LF’s explanation might not cut it, since both Sansa and Jon know LF is full of crap, which you have both explained and acknowledged.

But, the point is that he did come to feel that way about Joffrey. And the fact that he didn’t leave until forced by the events of the Blackwater doesn’t change that.

And like I said earlier, it’s not really easy for somebody like Sandor to just get up and leave, given the society he lives in. People take these feudal bonds and oaths quite seriously. It’s not like somebody can just pull Johnny Paycheck and just say, “Take this job and shove it...”

The only thing LOL here is your preposterous suggestion that Sandor should have just casually decided to take on the entire KG, the Gold Cloaks, and half the Lannister Army, all by himself. That would have been a disaster for him and probably Sansa. He had to walk a very fine line.

But, yeah, Sandor did suggest in the show, that if push came to shove, he would betray Joffrey for Sansa, which was pretty consistent with his book character.

And the point here is that getting Sansa out of KL, finding a safe place for her, and transporting her there, while possibly being pursued by Lannister forces, wouldn’t have been an easy thing to do. This isn’t some kind of bad Rambo movie thing here.

Now, it’s true that Sandor did offer to take her out of KL, when he had to leave the night of the Blackwater. It’s also true that Sandor wasn’t exactly in the best state of mind at the time, being drunk and suffering from battle fatigue. That he wanted to take Sansa with him is understandable for emotional reasons. That he wasn’t thinking clearly there is understandable too.

So Sandor didn’t take significant personal risk in trying to save Sansa from being raped at the KL riot?

And my point is that there were understandable reasons why Sandor might have been a bit apprehensive of just leaving KL with Sansa before he was forced to leave the night of the Blackwater. Surely, wondering around Westeros, being a wanted outlaw, maybe having the reputation as an oathbreaker, with no place to go, isn’t a very enticing prospect.

Well Sandor certainly did express an intention to save Sansa from beatings, punishment, and abuse, which he did repeatedly.

As to why he didn’t hatch a plan, before the Blackwater, to get her out of KL permanently, I think I’ve explained that sufficiently.

And the fact Sandor later admits to not doing enough for Sansa is telling about how he feels about her.

Your slamming Sandor here because:

1. He didn’t make some futile and pointless gesture of trying to fight all the KG, GC, and Lannister Army by himself;

2. Because he didn’t hatch some kind of elaborate escape plan like Rambo Style, even though there would have been significant issues had he tried to do so.

And why do I just think, it’s easy to make the charge of cowardice from the safety and comfort of one’s home? Supposing Sandor was in the modern military and was being court martialed for running. And supposing the defense offered evidence that he was suffering from a specific mental condition and that specific mental condition was the cause of his running. And supposing other evidence was offered that he labored under that condition for several hours in intense combat. You think he would get convicted? Probably not.

Seems like there’s a lot of chicken hawkery up in this mofo right about now.

Men where dying when he was leading them in several sorties

Most of this sounds like war wimpery. The fact of the matter is that entire situation wasn’t good for anybody. It was bad for Sandor. It was bad for Sansa. And Sandor was in very bad shape when he came into her room that night. And he clearly wasn’t thinking normally. That said, it seems pretty clear his reasons for offering Sansa out of KL was because he did care about her and didn’t want to leave her in KL by herself. His reasons for doing that are humanly understandable, even though he clearly wasn’t thinking very straight. I wouldn’t describe the situation as being more tragic than anything. But, most importantly his offers were sincere even if he was completely in a bad mental state.

And LF has vastly more resources to work with, like a place to actually keep her, for one. And please let’s not act like LF helped Sansa for completely altruistic purposes. He clearly sees Sansa was a chip to gain power even if he might desire her.

And with LF, she doesn’t know the full truth about him. With Sandor she does. She knows pretty much what he has done and where he has been.

Right, because defying your liege lord and your prince in the throne room in front of everyone, in a feudal society, is nothing. Makes perfect sense. 

[Le Cygne]

4 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

<snip>

Excellent points.

LF framed her for regicide, and pimped her out to Ramsay (and more that she doesn't know yet, but she's about to find out). They had her say to LF, you hurt me. They had her say to Sandor, "you won't hurt me." They do like to spell things out. And they spelled it out that Sandor is one of the "good men"... and he is headed her way. And if she feels half as strongly about him as her book counterpart, I think she's about to see a little happiness... and LF is about to lose his head. "Get her a dog, she'll be happier for it"...

Also interesting, after Sandor "died" the showrunners said this: "I would hope you can't help but love the Hound in spite of yourself, a little bit." That's them spelling out what they set out to do. And this was before his time out, where he came to ask, "If the gods are real...why haven't they punished me?" And was told, "They have." The show has absolved him, and... they made it clear he's still a great fighter. He avenges a friend. How much more he would avenge the woman he loves...

And she's ready to fight, too. She's more like him now. He's more like her now. They meet in the middle. That's what the show is doing. All those hints, over and over and over again, since he left, that's what it's about. There is someone like her, he had the same dreams, he was playing with the knight toy when he was burned. They both found out the hard way, the world is a hard place. But... there just might be some happiness to be found, together. They bring out the best in each other.

"There's plenty worse than me. There are men who like to beat little girls. Men who like to rape them. Saved your sister from some of them. Ask her, if you ever see her again. Ask her who came back for her, when the mob had her on her back. They would have taken her every which way and left her with her throat cut open."

"It's never too late to come back."

[TheKnightOfJests]

The wedding will have lemon cakes and chicken...

[LongRider]

Tyrion told Cersei he needed Sandor to lead sorties in the fight, and that's what he did.  He was seen by Davos riding his warhorse up the plank on the enemy's ship Prayer.   Next we hear about him Tyrion had come to the King's Gate as Stannis's forces just starting their assault with the battering ram.  Tyrion was ordering the men to form up and that was when the Hound refused. 

A sellsword then told Tyrion they had been out fighting in the wildfire three times, with half their men killed or hurt.  The Hound tells Tyrion to open the gate then attack Stannis's forces when they rush in.  "I've lost half my men.  Horses as well.  I'm not taking more into that fire."   Ser Mandon Moore moved to Tyrion's side, immaculate in his enameled white plate. "The King's Hand command's you."

This is when the Hound refuses.  Tyrion thinks; "He is dead on his feet.  The wound, the fire...he's done.  I need to find someone else. Ser Mandon."  Tyrion realizes no-one would follow Ser Mandon, and when he asks who would lead, the Hound tells him that he Tyrion should lead the sortie, and so he does.   Sandor leaves Tyrion with a battle plan which he followed.  He didn't just hide and run away, he left and did it in a way that Tyrion didn't lose face.  (no pun intended    )

Book wise, it is important to understand how the battle played out for the Hound.  He was brave, he attacked a ship and he lead men into the firefight multiple times.  GRRM gives a great compare and contrast with the Hound's wounds, exhausted state and bloody grey armour, against Ser Mandon's, immaculate enameled white plate.   Immaculate white plate that Tyrion realized the men wouldn't follow. 

He also realized, that the Hound was done in, he couldn't fight anymore, and not just because of fear.  Tyrion would to send him to fight to his death because the men would still follow him.  But the Hound was having no more of it, so he left.  Between the gate and Sansa's room, his state deteriorated and he also became drunker to the point he passed out on her bed. 

All of this doesn't make it into the show of course, but it does show the Hound having fear of fire and Tyrion trying to order the Hound out again, which he refuses and leaves.

On another note, LF grabbing Ned from behind and holding a knife to his throat was a coward's move, sneaky, underhanded.  He could deliver Ned right to the Gold Cloaks that way and Ned was unable to fight back. 

LF knew what was going to happen in that room and he used the info to blindside Ned and grab him.  Sandor is the man who would not commit kinslaying of Gregor when he had the chance, he's honorable in a fight and would recognize LF's sneaky moves.  So Sandor may have a thing or two to tell Sansa about LF.