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SanSan next season?


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2 hours ago, Dolorous Gabe said:

The poster I quoted was suggesting people wanted Sansa to be a prize rewarded to Sandor. That fallacy is what I was responding to.

I'm not a Sansa fan. She grew on me throughout the book story because her character arc is arguably one of the strongest but in a very subtle way, but she'll never be a favourite of mine. So, for me, I don't care a great deal about whether she gets together with Sandor or not. I have been convinced by other posters that in the books things will kick off massively in the Vale and Sandor may become involved in Sansa's story again. And it's pretty obvious to point out that Sandor is now heading Sansa's way in the show.

That said, I don't see any problem with people wanting two characters who clearly desire one-another to get together. I really don't.

That's my view too.:agree:

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2 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Suggesting Sansa is going to die is pure speculation, like Jon/Arya. Could happen, but it's not proof of anything.

I didn't say the outline said Sansa was going to die, only that it strongly hinted at her death. The outline states that Sansa gives birth to Joffrey's son (the heir to the throne), states that Jaime claims the throne by murdering everyone ahead of him in the line of succession (which would include Sansa's son), and omits any further mention of Sansa. Sansa is also left off the list of "five central characters" whom GRRM guaranteed would survive in the outline, which included the other principal POV Starks (Jon, Bran, and Arya).  It's not 100% confirmation that she dies in the outline, of course, since theoretically she could escape, but it seems very unlikely that Outline Sansa would allow her infant son to be murdered and skip off to her next adventure, or that Outline Jaime would let her live while making sure to eliminate her son.

Now, ASOIAF Sansa escaped King's Landing and Cersei (the ambitious, power-mad side of Outline Jaime). Still, the interesting thing about the outline is that characters who died in the outline also died in the books, if under different circumstances (Outline Catelyn is killed in a wight attack, Outline Robb dies in battle). If GRRM killed off Outline Sansa, which the outline strongly suggests that he planned to do, she's most assuredly doomed in the books, which is why certain fans are scrambling so hard to find a reason to write off the outline.

To bring this back to SanSan, I don't think Sansa is going to live long enough for it to be a thing. She'll be entangled with Littlefinger in both the books and the show--politically for sure, but I expect romantically or even sexually--until her death. Siding with LF and going against Jon in Season 7, as the writers have set up this season, will be the end of her in the show. Not sure about the books. The writers could be fastforwarding with Jon vs. Sansa to a part of the unwritten books where Jon and Sansa clash: swapping Jon being acclaimed by the Northern lords for what I imagine will be Robb's will disinheriting Sansa, and bringing the Vale armies north after the end of Sansa's stint in the Vale. Sansa will fulfill her destiny as the traitorous Stark of "dubious loyalty," which is how GRRM described her in the outline, and ultimately die for it, much as Outline Sansa was hinted to do.

2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

He has always maintained he knew the broad strokes and the end. That what tv fans live on, so that's all they can comprehend, I guess? But that outline is changes far more from what story we have now than what is has in common. Cersei didn't even exist, and now she is a large POV character, among many other differences. He also said then, and a few similar iterations before the, that the characters and story grew in the process. And that he wishes somethings that seemed as foreshadowing then really aren't. 

I gather you like to work hard to make George seem incompetent because you bash him a lot? He didn't "go through the trouble to make a completely fake outline". Hell, the office building had to black out the last paragraph before posting it. What he has said is he hates writing them and never had to do it because that is not how the story comes to him. His story is character driven, not plot driven like the show. 

Posters are trying to dismiss the outline by citing GRRM's attempt to dismiss it by claiming that he was just "making shit up."  However, he has made statements on numerous occasions before and since the leak of the outline to the effect that he has always known the arcs and endgames for the main characters and that he has known the broad strokes of the ending since 1991. Assuming that that's the case, then the only way his claim that he was just "making shit up" with the outline could possibly be true is if in 1993 he came up with a completely fake outline 100% at odds with the broad strokes and arcs he has said many times he already knew in 1991 (and therefore in 1993). Since the outline has many elements in common with ASOIAF as it turned out (including a confirmation that Ned is not Jon's father), that seems very unlikely, and the outline is not 100% at odds with ASOIAF, despite some differences. Therefore, his statement that the outline was just him "making shit up" is what I've said it is: an attempt to throw readers off the scent that cannot be taken at face value.

There's nothing incompetent about GRRM trying to throw readers off the scent and convince them that the outline is garbage. In his position, I would do the same. It's pretty obvious what he's actually doing, though.

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I know she is not dead in the outline but mentioning it strong hints at her death doesn't mean it necessarily has to happen since the outline also points out to different fates of the main characters......we just don't know what will happen.

and the outline is not a guide anymore. Could some things still happen?yes

but he said he doesn't like outlines and he is a gardener.

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6 minutes ago, Darksky said:

Sansa has no business in the endgame so yeah she will be gone in season 7.

I don't think so....they changed her plot because they felt she had to have more protagonism

And if they follow the book's ending, I'm pretty sure she will be alive until the ending at least

QUoting @The Fattest Leech from this thread 

 

Quote

"Tyrion, Arya, Jon, Sansa, you know, all of the Stark kids, and the major Lannisters, yeah."

 

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26 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I don't think so....they changed her plot because they felt she had to have more protagonism

And if they follow the book's ending, I'm pretty sure she will be alive until the ending at least

QUoting @The Fattest Leech from this thread 

 

 

Thanks. It seems like the big 5 includes Sansa, I hope so. To me she is the one who has suffered the most, I would be so disappointed to read about a character who has gone through so much just to die before the end of the book. What would be the point? Unless it is some great sacrifice that she makes.

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12 hours ago, Darksky said:

Sansa has no business in the endgame so yeah she will be gone in season 7.

Yes. She's done for.

12 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I don't think so....they changed her plot because they felt she had to have more protagonism

And if they follow the book's ending, I'm pretty sure she will be alive until the ending at least

QUoting @The Fattest Leech from this thread 

 

 

Just because he knows Sansa's fate doesn't mean she survives. GRRM also includes "the major Lannisters" in that list of characters whose fate he knows. If you think Cersei is still breathing at the end of ADOS, I have a bridge to sell you. The fact that he included the "major Lannisters" on the list, most of whom have died or are going to die, doesn't bode well for Sansa's survival prospects, either.

D&D didn't change her plot just because they wanted Sansa to be more central. After Season 5, they said they changed Sansa's plot because they didn't want to bench Sophie like Isaac and they wanted to give her a meaty storyline, since Sophie is such a great actress. After Season 6, of course, in hindsight it's clear that she was also given the rape storyline to fuel her revenge storyline against Ramsay and set up the Stark fight to reclaim Winterfell. They couldn't say that before Season 6 aired, of course, so we got the "Sophie is such a great actress" line. None of that means Sansa survives. It rather points to the opposite, since they felt comfortable with scrapping a huge part of her book arc in service of a TV-only plot (in the books, it looks as if a very much alive Stannis will be leading the fight to reclaim Winterfell). D&D have also put characters who were clearly doomed front and centre before (TV Robb's role was expanded from the books, TV Cersei is more prominent than in the books) solely because they loved the actors/actresses playing those characters. TV Robb is still dead and TV Cersei is on her way. TV Sansa being prominent means nothing as to her ultimate survival.

The good news is that after the show rape debacle, I expect that when TV Sansa does die it will be with some measure of dignity.

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12 hours ago, Bear Claw said:

Thanks. It seems like the big 5 includes Sansa, I hope so. To me she is the one who has suffered the most, I would be so disappointed to read about a character who has gone through so much just to die before the end of the book. What would be the point? Unless it is some great sacrifice that she makes.

Yes, it seems so. Well, if that last one was going to be called "A Time for Wolves" it must have been for a reason.

54 minutes ago, Newstar said:

Yes. She's done for.

Just because he knows Sansa's fate doesn't mean she survives. GRRM also includes "the major Lannisters" in that list of characters whose fate he knows. If you think Cersei is still breathing at the end of ADOS, I have a bridge to sell you. The fact that he included the "major Lannisters" on the list, most of whom have died or are going to die, doesn't bode well for Sansa's survival prospects, either.

D&D didn't change her plot just because they wanted Sansa to be more central. After Season 5, they said they changed Sansa's plot because they didn't want to bench Sophie like Isaac and they wanted to give her a meaty storyline, since Sophie is such a great actress. After Season 6, of course, in hindsight it's clear that she was also given the rape storyline to fuel her revenge storyline against Ramsay and set up the Stark fight to reclaim Winterfell. They couldn't say that before Season 6 aired, of course, so we got the "Sophie is such a great actress" line. None of that means Sansa survives. It rather points to the opposite, since they felt comfortable with scrapping a huge part of her book arc in service of a TV-only plot (in the books, it looks as if a very much alive Stannis will be leading the fight to reclaim Winterfell). D&D have also put characters who were clearly doomed front and centre before (TV Robb's role was expanded from the books, TV Cersei is more prominent than in the books) solely because they loved the actors/actresses playing those characters. TV Robb is still dead and TV Cersei is on her way. TV Sansa being prominent means nothing as to her ultimate survival.

The good news is that after the show rape debacle, I expect that when TV Sansa does die it will be with some measure of dignity.

Well, if that last one was going to be called "A Time for Wolves" it must have been for a reason. From the same thread:

  • Quote

    He went straight from talking about the references in the actual books, to the "differences" in the outline from then to now. He did say that he still knows who sits the iron throne and the end game of the main 5, but also included Sansa, but did not give any details (for obvious reasons).

     

He wasn't referring to the ending of ADOS. DOn't take things for granted. It was "the fates". You can include people with last page fates with the ones that maybe will exist until the next book only. And notice the Lannisters are the last from his list. Apart from that, if Cersei (and not Jaime) was going to die in the next book he wouldn't say "and one Major Lannister" because that would be a s spoiler. And both? I don't Think Cersei or Jaime would be deleted until the ending of next book, anyway.

 I think that all The major (Stark) characters will still be walking around next season if they are following the books for the reason above.

But if they invent things anything can happen.

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A couple things are self-evident to me about the show, and that is that it needs its 'stars', it needs the major protagonists, and it needs the antagonists too. The main cast is the one that people have an investment in, and it's those characters, ultimately, that need to end the series playing against one another. That means that some of both the pro-and antagonists will probably survive until the end of the tv series, perhaps longer than they do in the novels. It's easy to write from one or two POVs and have those POVs be central to the action at the end, without needing a plethora of POVs to tell the story. The show, on the other hand, needs its stars.

And, hard as it is for me to say this, I think that, at minimum, one more Stark needs to die. I don't really want that to be the case, but I think that narratively speaking, it makes sense to me. Who is the question, of course.

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6 minutes ago, Karmarni said:

A couple things are self-evident to me about the show, and that is that it needs its 'stars', it needs the major protagonists, and it needs the antagonists too. The main cast is the one that people have an investment in, and it's those characters, ultimately, that need to end the series playing against one another. That means that some of both the pro-and antagonists will probably survive until the end of the tv series, perhaps longer than they do in the novels. It's easy to write from one or two POVs and have those POVs be central to the action at the end, without needing a plethora of POVs to tell the story. The show, on the other hand, needs its stars.

And, hard as it is for me to say this, I think that, at minimum, one more Stark needs to die. I don't really want that to be the case, but I think that narratively speaking, it makes sense to me. Who is the question, of course.

O yes...the stars. I wouldn't mind less stars and more secondaries. And some leads be real ones, like Bran, instead of the 4 main ones. It's a bit boring. But I agree with you. 

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5 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

O yes...the stars. I wouldn't mind less stars and more secondaries. And some leads be real ones, like Bran, instead of the 4 main ones. It's a bit boring. But I agree with you. 

I certainly agree about Bran! I don't see how the story going forward can be anything but how Bran starts to affect the world and the other characters, kind of heaving him more into the spotlight.

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As much als I like Bran and his actor - I fear if Bran and his abilities get too much influence on  the plot it  might cheapen the story, like some deus ex machina who interferes via weir net and who might even  - horrible in my eyes - change the past for an outcome easier to digest: one happy Stark family. The worst imaginable use of Bran as character........

.........and Bran woke up and all was well. No, Mr Martin, please don't.

I would rather like it if omniscient Bran were not the killjoy who spoils important knowledge to characters as cheap way of empowering them. I would rather like it if characters found solutions by intelligence and courage.

Meaning I would like Bran to have less influence instead of more.

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We still don't know which role will play Bran in the story. But it won't cheapen the story. I don't think than Bran (even if he was able to change the past-or some parts of it) would make the other's roles easier, on the contrary.

There won't be a "Bran wake up and...". 

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