SanSan next season?

[Meera of Tarth]

36 minutes ago, The Arthur Smith said:

A lot of people seems to see SanSan as the "Beauty and Beast" type. A girl who is innocent and young, interact with a brooding man who has a trouble past and the girl gets to warm his heart to her.

Imo, an unhealthy relationship if you ask me.

there are two Beauty and The Beast stories: Jaime and Brienne (my OTP) and SanSan. 

but why should it be unhealthy?

[Bear Claw]

3 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

there are two Beauty and The Beast stories: Jaime and Brienne (my OTP) and SanSan. 

but why should it be unhealthy?

I think Tyrion and Sansa was also a kind of Beauty and The Beast in the book at least. His looks in the books are not attractive. I used to think that they might continue the Beauty and The Beast theme and have the Night King try to make her his queen. I don't see that happening anymore though. 

[The Arthur Smith]

3 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

there are two Beauty and The Beast stories: Jaime and Brienne (my OTP) and SanSan. 

but why should it be unhealthy?

Imo, SanSan doesn't work to me cause Sandor was very unstable and violate and his attitude isn't right for romanticism or such. This doesn't blend well with Sansa as Sansa was already traumatized from the events and she doesn't need to be romantically pair up with a guy who has a violate attitude, especially when you forget that Sandor attacked Sansa on the night of the Blackwater battle. And that considered to be romantic? Ain't taking it.

Sansa dreamed about Sandor every so often, but keep in mind, she's 13 years old and most girls tend to be like that when they strike puberty. They get into romance and be more expose towards their sexuality in depth, and what type of guys that tend to be their favorable target? The bad and dangerous type. Sansa sees Sandor as a poor and sad man that needs someone to cure his dark self. Sounds familiar? Furthermore, She misinterpreted Sandor's attack as he tried to kiss her, which in reality it's no more than a drunk attempt rape, which GRMM captured the infamous UnKiss thought very accurately in Sansa's mind. This whole complication also applies to Dany and Daario. Dany favor Daario due to how good-looking and dangerous he looks and despite knowing he murdered his comrades which makes him untrustworthy and this caused Dany fantasize him constantly throughout Dance. So pretty much, Sandor is no more than a crush to Sansa and she's better off with someone who is hubby material.

I'm not against the "Beauty and the Beast" relationship, just against the SanSan due to reasons i stated.

And why would i be against Jaime/Brienne pairing?! They're like the best beasty to me cause how much they contribute and help each other in developing their character ! Although i never see them as "Beauty and the Beast" type like you said.

3 hours ago, Lurid Jester said:

Maybe in Sansa's oft inaccurate mind, but I don't see or actually recall Sandor having much interest in her beyond his occasionally keeping her safe, and offering to get her out of kings landing.  

That's pretty much the point with Sansa's mindset regarding Sandor. Sansa thought Sandor kissed him, but truthfully he didn't cause that time when that scene happened, Sansa already hits puberty (i explained this earlier to Meera of Tarth above) and misinterpreted it as a kiss.

[Le Cygne]

The Hound is Sansa's Beast. Sansa and the Hound, Beauty and the Beast. GRRM even gave the Hound the Beast's lines. Not just any ugly man can be Beauty's Beast, she has to CHOOSE him, and that's based on her desire for him. The Beast awakens the beast (sexuality) in Beauty. For Sansa, that's Sandor. GRRM wrote the Blackwater scene for Sansa and the Hound that parallels La Belle et la Bete, his favorite version of Beauty and the Beast. The show has been dropping beauty and beast hints for them ever since. They become more like each other, and meet in the middle.

Also, here's a nice review that gets into subtext... Some interesting trivia, GRRM requested calendar art for Sansa and the Hound like the movie poster at the link... also GRRM wanted the actor who played the Beast on his old television show to play the Hound (but that was a while back, for this show, he picked Rory).

[Meera of Tarth]

10 hours ago, Bear Claw said:

I think Tyrion and Sansa was also a kind of Beauty and The Beast in the book at least. His looks in the books are not attractive. I used to think that they might continue the Beauty and The Beast theme and have the Night King try to make her his queen. I don't see that happening anymore though. 

Good point. But BaTB is more than the looks. It's a story where the Beauty ends up seeing the beauty inside the beast. Sansa didn't see that on Tyrion. She just respected him. And she hasn't show any desire for him.

10 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

The Hound is Sansa's Beast. Sansa and the Hound, Beauty and the Beast. GRRM even gave the Hound the Beast's lines. Not just any ugly man can be Beauty's Beast, she has to CHOOSE him, and that's based on her desire for him. The Beast awakens the beast (sexuality) in Beauty. For Sansa, that's Sandor. GRRM wrote the Blackwater scene for Sansa and the Hound that parallels La Belle et la Bete, his favorite version of Beauty and the Beast. The show has been dropping beauty and beast hints for them ever since. They become more like each other, and meet in the middle.

Also, here's a nice review that gets into subtext... Some interesting trivia, GRRM requested calendar art for Sansa and the Hound like the movie poster at the link... also GRRM wanted the actor who played the Beast on his old television show to play the Hound (but that was a while back, for this show, he picked Rory).

This also. It has happened to Sansa with Sandor's thoughts.

[Meera of Tarth]

10 hours ago, The Arthur Smith said:

Imo, SanSan doesn't work to me cause Sandor was very unstable and violate and his attitude isn't right for romanticism or such. This doesn't blend well with Sansa as Sansa was already traumatized from the events and she doesn't need to be romantically pair up with a guy who has a violate attitude, especially when you forget that Sandor attacked Sansa on the night of the Blackwater battle. And that considered to be romantic? Ain't taking it.

Sansa dreamed about Sandor every so often, but keep in mind, she's 13 years old and most girls tend to be like that when they strike puberty. They get into romance and be more expose towards their sexuality in depth, and what type of guys that tend to be their favorable target? The bad and dangerous type. Sansa sees Sandor as a poor and sad man that needs someone to cure his dark self. Sounds familiar? Furthermore, She misinterpreted Sandor's attack as he tried to kiss her, which in reality it's no more than a drunk attempt rape, which GRMM captured the infamous UnKiss thought very accurately in Sansa's mind. This whole complication also applies to Dany and Daario. Dany favor Daario due to how good-looking and dangerous he looks and despite knowing he murdered his comrades which makes him untrustworthy and this caused Dany fantasize him constantly throughout Dance. So pretty much, Sandor is no more than a crush to Sansa and she's better off with someone who is hubby material.

I'm not against the "Beauty and the Beast" relationship, just against the SanSan due to reasons i stated.

 

That's pretty much the point with Sansa's mindset regarding Sandor. Sansa thought Sandor kissed him, but truthfully he didn't cause that time when that scene happened, Sansa already hits puberty (i explained this earlier to Meera of Tarth above) and misinterpreted it as a kiss.

I think Sandor is not as bad as it may seem for some people, and both will change their attittude, coming somewhere in the middle. He began this in Feast (when he has changed and he is another person hidden in the QI). And I don't think he would have raped her at all, the odd thing is the knife, ok, but he also tels her he would keep her safe if they escape together. He didn't want to touch her.

After all, he saved/defended her many times before.

Quote

And why would i be against Jaime/Brienne pairing?! They're like the best beasty to me cause how much they contribute and help each other in developing their character ! Although i never see them as "Beauty and the Beast" type like you said.

The interesting thing about them is that Brienne is not only the Beauty and Jaime the Beast (in ASOS), but she also is a Beast in looks, and Jaime a Beauty, and, after ASOS, I can see this same pattern in personality: he slowly is falling in love with the inside of Brienne and he is not longer "a Beast", being kind of a Beauty too.

[Le Cygne]

GRRM uses phallic symbolism in almost all of his romances. It's a visual symbol of mutual desire, like here is an illustration with another show, these two become lovers. It's pretty common in the romance genre, but GRRM particularly likes it.

He has Jaime try to pull a dagger (dagger = dick) on Brienne during the "fucking instead of fighting" scene. He has Jon pull a dagger on Ygritte. He has Qarl pull a dagger on Asha. He has Daario pull his daggers on Dany. He has Dunk (who he parallels Sandor with a lot) pull a dagger on Rohanne.

This review of La Belle et la Bete (which is how he parallels Sansa and the Hound) touches on that:

Quote

Those familiar with the 1991 cartoon will recognize some of the elements of the story, but certainly not the tone. Cocteau uses haunting images and bold Freudian symbols to suggest that emotions are at a boil in the subconscious of his characters. Consider the extraordinary shot where Belle waits at the dining table in the castle for the Beast's first entrance. He appears behind her and approaches silently. She senses his presence, and begins to react in a way that some viewers have described as fright, although it is clearly orgasmic. Before she has even seen him, she is aroused to her very depths, and a few seconds later, as she tells him she cannot marry--a Beast!--she toys with a knife that is more than a knife.

Sandor turned Sansa on, on a deep level, she instinctively caresses his face, then she gets under his bloody cloak (also symbolic). And that comes out more later, she pretends they kissed, and dreams of him in bed with her. The show went with a visual parallel of La Belle et la Bete. The show was also more direct, they had him whip out his dick in a scene where he is about to head north.

Sansa digs Sandor's ferocity, his beastliness, so it's important he doesn't lose that, that's what's appealing to her. The show has made sure he's still fierce, but also, as the showrunners put it, "He's a more thoughtful person... He's really thinking about his past in a way he never had before... He's starting to see that there's perhaps a different way of living your life."

[Meera of Tarth]

1 minute ago, Le Cygne said:

GRRM uses phallic symbolism in almost all of his romances. It's a visual symbol of mutual desire, like here is an illustration with another show, these two become lovers.  It's pretty common in the romance genre, but GRRM particularly likes it.

He has Jaime try to pull a dagger (dagger = dick) on Brienne during the "fucking instead of fighting" scene. He has Jon pull a dagger on Ygritte. He has Qarl pull a dagger on Asha. He has Dunk (who he parallels Sandor with a lot) pull a dagger on Rohanne.

Oh yes, that's true. I have JB's on my mind....

[Tijgy]

On 21-7-2016 at 6:56 PM, sweetsunray said:

I don't get this "Sandor is not a happy ending for Sansa" idea... She wants him, she likes him, and he ain't a Lannister patsy hacking children in half anymore.

What is that "It's not 'good' for her"? I back SanSan because it's very clear that's what Sansa ultimately will want. One of the reasons I actually back it vocally is because the paternalistic idea that everybody else knows what's best for Sansa, except Sansa herself galls me. Her own happy ending is what she wants, and there's no doubt that Sandor is part of that. 

Saying "Sandor is not a happy ending for Sansa" and saying "free to pursue her own happy ending" is contradictionary. It's saying, "Sansa, I hope you're free to pursue your own happy ending, as long as it ain't the guy you want, because I think he's no good for you." Which is basically a return to her start of her story.

I agree also with this. I just want Sansa finally to chose the person SHE wants, a choice made on her own desires and something completely free from politics, ... 

On 14-7-2016 at 7:10 PM, kissdbyfire said:

Possibly the only thing to look forward to in s 7, even if the character is Sandra and not Sansa. That and not having to read another line about Sans-Jon, as in, without, or Jonrya, coz really

I agree. It is one of the few things I look forward though. (I still want to see Bran scenes and I hope he is turning out something more than an exposition machine).

Some visuals from the show:

[Winterstars]

Sansan next season? Why not? My body is ready 

I like Tyrion/Sansa, but for the sake of all the hints they gave, SanSan is my number one

[Tijgy]

And he is the first one who protected her. And he is the only one who protect her without any ulterior reason. He had no familial, political or honorable obligation. He just did. 

[Darksky]

BatB theme is a cliche and Martin's supposed to be this great trope subverter according to many so I imagine he could invert the BatB somehow. Throughout the story there's been significant emphasis on Sansa's beauty. Perhaps she loses it as in gets maimed, mutilated or disfigured like The Hound did and it proves a test for Littlefinger and Sandor. Petyr obviously fails it, he drops her like a hot potato because she's no longer desirable while Sandor sees past the apperance and embraces Sansa in spite of her looks. They'd be Beasts together. Sansa would just be a Beauty in spirit then, unless she also starts down the dark path (she already does in the show).

[Le Cygne]

GRRM said everything has been done before, and it's all in the telling:

Quote

"You've got many books that have the same basic idea when you look at them... It's all in the execution. Originality is great, but it's an overrated virtue, I think. Shakespeare wasn't very original, he was just very, very good. He could write exactly the same story that... someone else had previously put down, but the way he did it elevated it to an all time classic as opposed to whatever had been before."

He's played the story straight all along, and has done so faithfully for the entire series. The story is just a framework for the story he is telling, there would be no reason to change the foundation, the framework is already the unexpected.

No one knows how Sansa is feeling but Sansa. This is going to be a complete surprise to everyone, especially to Littlefinger. Littlefinger bets against Sandor at the tourney, but Sansa knows Sandor will win. Littlefinger will make that mistake again.

He's already contrasted Sandor and Littlefinger, he does this from the very start, all the way to the latest book. Sandor wants to hear her songs, Littlefinger does not. Sandor doesn't take her without her consent, Littlefinger does.

Sandor doesn't kiss her when he thinks she doesn't want to, Littlefinger does anyway. And whose kiss is she dreaming of, Sandor's kiss. The important thing is that Sansa sees the difference, and it's based on her own feelings. And she chooses Sandor.

The show has kept many of those contrasts, too.

[Meera of Tarth]

1 hour ago, Darksky said:

BatB theme is a cliche and Martin's supposed to be this great trope subverter according to many so I imagine he could invert the BatB somehow. Throughout the story there's been significant emphasis on Sansa's beauty. Perhaps she loses it as in gets maimed, mutilated or disfigured like The Hound did and it proves a test for Littlefinger and Sandor. Petyr obviously fails it, he drops her like a hot potato because she's no longer desirable while Sandor sees past the apperance and embraces Sansa in spite of her looks. They'd be Beasts together. Sansa would just be a Beauty in spirit then, unless she also starts down the dark path (she already does in the show).

I think t wouldn't make sense in SanSan's story. Sandor wouldn't care about Sansa's looks. The story is not about a Beauty who turns to be a Beast and goes with him because she can't be with a more handsome man, but because she likes him for his inside.

Apart from that, we already have a Beauty that has suffered from that: Brienne.

[Ruhail]

A story written in english is cliche. Grrm should stop, and invert and break the trope because, tropes are poison and offlimits for him.

[Ashes Of Westeros]

On 7/29/2016 at 4:27 AM, The Arthur Smith said:

Imo, SanSan doesn't work to me cause Sandor was very unstable and violate and his attitude isn't right for romanticism or such. This doesn't blend well with Sansa as Sansa was already traumatized from the events and she doesn't need to be romantically pair up with a guy who has a violate attitude, especially when you forget that Sandor attacked Sansa on the night of the Blackwater battle.

Though Sandor's actions weren't what we called romantic, I don't think he intended to rape/hurt Sansa, otherwise he definitely would do it. We learned from the Hound himself, that he never been loved by his family or anyone at all. Thus he isn't used to express any kind of affection and probably doesn't even realize how he feels. The only way he can show it is through defending Sansa or just hanging around her. Another important thing is the cloack: at least two times Sandor gives Sansa his cloak to cover and she obviously finds comfort in it. Covering a woman with the cloak is a part of wedding ceremony in Westeros, so I would say it's symbolic.

On 7/29/2016 at 3:08 PM, Le Cygne said:

Sandor turned Sansa on, on a deep level, she instinctively caresses his face, then she gets under his bloody cloak (also symbolic). And that comes out more later, she pretends they kissed, and dreams of him in bed with her.

It's not a coincedence  that Sansa got her first period in the day of Blackwater battle, according to Westerosi ethics she is now fit to be wedded and bedded, it's a moment of sexual awakening. As mentioned above, the dagger could be considered as a phallic symbol and desire (Sandor could her hurt Sansa with it, but he never did), so the episode in Sansa's chamber was a moment of first real sexual tension though Sansa later reflected it as such.

Quote

"Oh, yes. He died on top of me. In me, if truth be told. You do know what goes on in a marriage bed, I hope?"

She thought of Tyrion, and of the Hound and how he'd kissed her, and gave a nod.

Sansa did thought about the Hound and Tyrion (the latter shared her bed, she saw him naked and aroused). She never thought about LF's kisses in that way.

[Runaway Penguin]

Jumping ont he bandwagon a bit late, but I think that the Hound will rather cross paths with Arya and maybe get her out of the homicidal "must kill all" mood. After all he now seems to have joined with Beric and co. - targets for Arya... And he seems to be far less ready to use violence (unless he's righteously pissed off).

[Le Cygne]

1 hour ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

She never thought about LF's kisses in that way.

Oh yeah, big contrast. There's a series of events, where she thinks of other men, and replaces them with Sandor! Just a run of the mill comparison, like oh, this guy is as tall as the Hound. Or she swaps in Sandor as the one she is kissing, the one in her bed, etc. Or even just when she's troubled, she thinks of Sandor and hears his voice and remembers what he told her, to feel better.

There's a lot going on with dogs, too. At one point she misses hounds to bark and growl.

[Rhaegun]

On 7/9/2016 at 1:28 PM, Karmarni said:

There's nothing to Jon and Sansa getting together than fanatical fans imaginations.

Spoiler

Except the original plot outline had a triangle between Jon, Arya and Tyrion.  It looks like the plot line for Arya may have been migrated to Sansa, with her marriage to Tyrion.

 

[TheKnightOfJests]

did he not abandon that plot?