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SanSan next season?


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Yes, he said he did not follow the original outline. He said he was "making shit up" and the characters took him in "completely different directions" from the outline. And the showrunners said Jon and Sansa is not happening, it "hadn't occurred to us."

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15 hours ago, Rhaegun said:
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Except the original plot outline had a triangle between Jon, Arya and Tyrion.  It looks like the plot line for Arya may have been migrated to Sansa, with her marriage to Tyrion.

 

He ditched the love triangle and gave the incest to Jaime and a newly invented Cersei to show what an abomination incest is. Jon and Arya were ditched before the first book was finished. 

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SanSan should happen next season if the show is telling any sort of a real story. 

Sansa has been through torture, torture, torture and has hardened some because of it. Sandor is needed because she wanted him in the past, and also because he was the only good in her life since she left Winterfell. He will bring humanity back to her. 

Nobody complained about Dany and Drogo's age, or Tommen and Marg's age difference. Even with Tommen aged up, Marg is close to 15 years older than Tommen. In real life, Dormer is 34 and Chapman is 18.

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5 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Sansa has been through torture, torture, torture and has hardened some because of it. Sandor is needed because she wanted him in the past, and also because he was the only good in her life since she left Winterfell. He will bring humanity back to her. 

And vice versa. Sandor was tortured by his own brother and neglected by his family and his adult life was nothing but hate and killing. He also needs at least some loving experience in his life.

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16 minutes ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

 Sandor was tortured by his own brother and neglected by his family and his adult life was nothing but hate and killing. He also needs at least some loving experience in his life.

Ashes, do you think Sansa is some prize in the misery competition and goes to the one who has suffered the most?

In that case the most worthy winner would probably be .... Theon. Or Greyworm. Or Davos who lost four sons in the books. They all need at least some loving experience, why not entertain them with Sansa, the all purpose jackpot. Seriously?

 

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6 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

SanSan should happen next season if the show is telling any sort of a real story. 

 

You mean if "SanSan" never happens Martin and the show are not telling any sort of a real story?

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25 minutes ago, Woman of War said:

Ashes, do you think Sansa is some prize in the misery competition and goes to the one who has suffered the most?

Probably, you took my words out of context. Many users pointed out that Sansa suffered a lot and it would be nice if she will get soem kind of happy ending. My point is that not only Sansa, but Sandor is a tortured person too and it would be nice if he has some happy moments. So this would work both ways.

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20 minutes ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

Probably, I took my words out of context. Many users pointed out that Sansa suffered a lot and it would be nice if she will get soem kind of happy ending. My point is that not only Sansa, but Sandor is a tortured person too and it would be nice if he has some happy moments. So this would work both ways.

Yes, Sandor is a tortured person and his character's story is hugely interesting. But  there are quite a few characters in these series and books who would just as much or more deserve some happiness and recognition. To me that would first of all be Tyrion, Brienne or Pod e.g.. And what about Arya and Jon? Bran and Jaime? A happy ending for everybody? Unlikely! Shireen and Margaery for sure did not get the ending I had hoped for. 

I do not think that characters will get rewarded, like they would in some conventional fairy tale, with winning the prince or the princess as simply structured happily ever after. As if that princely prize  were not a character of his or her own. 

And the love story some of us may perceive as rightful "reward" may in the end turn out as disaster or liability.

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8 hours ago, TheKnightOfJests said:

did he not abandon that plot?

He did abandon the plot. George even recently mentioned the leaked "original" outline at Balticon koffeeklatsch where he said "he made shit up", because he normally never does outlines... Normally he just writes the whole book and sends that to be published, rather than 3 first chapters with outline. But this was a series and he needed the assurances without having to rely on Hollywood anymore for a living. So, he wrote the first and only outline he ever wrote in his life, made stuff up, and abandoned the outline as soon as he sent it in.

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17 minutes ago, Woman of War said:

And the love story some of us may perceive as rightful "reward" may in the end turn out as disaster or liability.

It's not about a "reward"

It's about the fact that Sansa and Sandor actually seem to want each other. It is perhaps arguable that this is less obvious in the show than it is in the books but others have shown better than I can how the show is at least telling a fairly similar story with their relationship.

And sure, they could get together and it might not work out. Such is life. Most relationships don't work out in the end, but who are we to tell two people who want each other that they shouldn't get together? We let them find that out on their own.

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9 minutes ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

@Woman of War Sure, nobody is supposed to be "rewarded". But this particular thread is about Sansa+Sandor and it's mostly speculation and interpretation. It isn't neccessary about fans' aspiration for  fairytale, but rather a Chekhov's gun; if smth was hinted in fiction, it should be important for further storytelling.

To me the biggest guns are the sword (LOL) Jaime gave to Brienne and Sansa's "what if I never want?" to Tyrion. 

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1 hour ago, Dolorous Gabe said:

It's not about a "reward"

It's about the fact that Sansa and Sandor actually seem to want each other. It is perhaps arguable that this is less obvious in the show than it is in the books but others have shown better than I can how the show is at least telling a fairly similar story with their relationship.

And sure, they could get together and it might not work out. Such is life. Most relationships don't work out in the end, but who are we to tell two people who want each other that they shouldn't get together? We let them find that out on their own.

Yes, this. It's quite simple, mutual feelings for each other.

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2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

He did abandon the plot. George even recently mentioned the leaked "original" outline at Balticon koffeeklatsch where he said "he made shit up", because he normally never does outlines... Normally he just writes the whole book and sends that to be published, rather than 3 first chapters with outline. But this was a series and he needed the assurances without having to rely on Hollywood anymore for a living. So, he wrote the first and only outline he ever wrote in his life, made stuff up, and abandoned the outline as soon as he sent it in.

 

 Do you have a link for that comment? The original outline is often used as a piece of evidence in arguments so I'd like that info as a rebuttal.

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1 hour ago, Regular John Umber said:

 

 Do you have a link for that comment? The original outline is often used as a piece of evidence in arguments so I'd like that info as a rebuttal.

There you go: one of our Balticon correspondents, also referenced in the SSM archive. :D

Towards the end of that report post @Fattest Leech wrote out the transcript of all his comments about the outline.

 

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On 2016-08-02 at 8:28 AM, Dolorous Gabe said:

It's not about a "reward"

For some posters, clearly, it is about a reward: comments on this thread have implied that Sansa and Sandor should or will get together because they deserve something good after all the horror and hardship they've been through (i.e. Ashes of Westeros upthread stating that Sandor "needs some loving"). That is a spectacularly misguided argument in ASOIAF/GOT, where characters who suffer horrible hardship die or continue to suffer anew without things getting better for them. and where good characters regularly have terrible things happen to them. As was said on another show, "Deserve's got nothing to do with it."

And really, what's so special about Sandor and Sansa that they deserve happiness when it's been denied to better, kinder people in GOT/ASOIAF? They are not the worst people in that world, but they are far from the best. Sandor's an asshole in both books and the show. Sansa has her moments, but she's no angel, either. If we're going to start handing out happy endings to the most deserving, there are dozens of characters who would take precedence over them. They've suffered, yes. So what? So has pretty much everyone in GOT/ASOIAF still breathing. Big deal. Even if GRRM operated by the storytelling principle of giving characters nice things because they are so great or have suffered so much that they deserve them--which he clearly does not--Sansa and Sandor would be quite a ways down his priority list.
 

On 2016-08-02 at 1:36 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

Nobody complained about Dany and Drogo's age, or Tommen and Marg's age difference. Even with Tommen aged up, Marg is close to 15 years older than Tommen. In real life, Dormer is 34 and Chapman is 18.

Your claim that "nobody complained" about Tommen and Marg's age difference is wrong. People complained at length about TV Tommen and Marg's age difference, to the point that Natalie Dormer commented on the controversy over the scene where she shows up late at night to flirt with Tommen, and where both Dormer and Chapman responded to the controversy over their (post) sex scene. As for nobody complaining about Dany/Drogo, Dany was played by an actress who was of age and looked it when the series started, while Sansa's actress was underage during her interactions with the Hound. Big difference. I agree that the writers probably don't care so much about the age difference now that Sophie is of age, but if anything, that will come into play with her relationship with Littlefinger on the show, not with the Hound.

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Yes, he said he did not follow the original outline. He said he was "making shit up"

LOL, of course he claimed he was "making shit up." What else was he going to say when a document leaked spoiling the identity of five surviving characters and strongly hinting at Sansa's death? He's also said many, many times that he's known the broad strokes of the ending since 1991 (two years before he wrote the outline) and has always known the arcs and endings for the main characters. So either he went to the trouble in 1993 of contriving a completely fake outline totally at odds with the arcs/endgames he had planned in his head--unlikely, since many elements of the outline correspond to ASOIAF events (Tyrion in exile after being blamed for murder, Winterfell being sacked and burned, etc.)--or he's lying when he claims he was "making shit up" in the outline. It seems pretty obvious to me which is the case.

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1 minute ago, Newstar said:

For some posters, clearly, it is about a reward: several comments on this thread have implied that Sansa and Sandor will get together because they deserve something good after all the horror and hardship they've been through. That is a spectacularly misguided argument in ASOIAF/GOT, where characters who suffer horrible hardship die or continue to suffer anew without things getting better for them. and where good characters regularly have terrible things happen to them. As was said on another show, "Deserve's got nothing to do with it."

And really, what's so special about Sandor and Sansa that they deserve happiness when it's been denied to better, kinder people in GOT/ASOIAF? They are not the worst people in that world, but they are far from the best. If we're going to start handing out happy endings to the most deserving, there are dozens of characters who would take precedence over them. They've suffered, yes. So what? So has pretty much everyone in GOT/ASOIAF still breathing. Big deal.

The poster I quoted was suggesting people wanted Sansa to be a prize rewarded to Sandor. That fallacy is what I was responding to.

I'm not a Sansa fan. She grew on me throughout the book story because her character arc is arguably one of the strongest but in a very subtle way, but she'll never be a favourite of mine. So, for me, I don't care a great deal about whether she gets together with Sandor or not. I have been convinced by other posters that in the books things will kick off massively in the Vale and Sandor may become involved in Sansa's story again. And it's pretty obvious to point out that Sandor is now heading Sansa's way in the show.

That said, I don't see any problem with people wanting two characters who clearly desire one-another to get together. I really don't.

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1 hour ago, Newstar said:

 

LOL, of course he claimed he was "making shit up." What else was he going to say when a document leaked spoiling the identity of five surviving characters and strongly hinting at Sansa's death? He's also said many, many times that he's known the broad strokes of the ending since 1991 (two years before he wrote the outline) and has always known the arcs and endings for the main characters. So either he went to the trouble in 1993 of contriving a completely fake outline totally at odds with the arcs/endgames he had planned in his head--unlikely, since many elements of the outline correspond to ASOIAF events (Tyrion in exile after being blamed for murder, Winterfell being sacked and burned, etc.)--or he's lying when he claims he was "making shit up" in the outline. It seems pretty obvious to me which is the case.

He said he doesn't like outlines. He had to write it because that was what their editors want. Some things are similar, but others are not. Tyrion in love with Arya or Catelyn being killed by the others, no Cersei are completely different.

Maybe some things will happen in the future: like Jon/Arya but it won't be a large love affair tormented by his celibacy.....

Suggesting Sansa is going to die is pure speculation, like Jon/Arya. Could happen, but it's not proof of anything.

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1 hour ago, Newstar said:

For some posters, clearly, it is about a reward: comments on this thread have implied that Sansa and Sandor should or will get together because they deserve something good after all the horror and hardship they've been through (i.e. Ashes of Westeros upthread stating that Sandor "needs some loving"). That is a spectacularly misguided argument in ASOIAF/GOT, where characters who suffer horrible hardship die or continue to suffer anew without things getting better for them. and where good characters regularly have terrible things happen to them. As was said on another show, "Deserve's got nothing to do with it."

And really, what's so special about Sandor and Sansa that they deserve happiness when it's been denied to better, kinder people in GOT/ASOIAF? They are not the worst people in that world, but they are far from the best. Sandor's an asshole in both books and the show. Sansa has her moments, but she's no angel, either. If we're going to start handing out happy endings to the most deserving, there are dozens of characters who would take precedence over them. They've suffered, yes. So what? So has pretty much everyone in GOT/ASOIAF still breathing. Big deal. Even if GRRM operated by the storytelling principle of giving characters nice things because they are so great or have suffered so much that they deserve them--which he clearly does not--Sansa and Sandor would be quite a ways down his priority list.
 

Your claim that "nobody complained" about Tommen and Marg's age difference is wrong. People complained at length about TV Tommen and Marg's age difference, to the point that Natalie Dormer commented on the controversy over the scene where she shows up late at night to flirt with Tommen, and where both Dormer and Chapman responded to the controversy over their (post) sex scene. As for nobody complaining about Dany/Drogo, Dany was played by an actress who was of age and looked it when the series started, while Sansa's actress was underage during her interactions with the Hound. Big difference. I agree that the writers probably don't care so much about the age difference now that Sophie is of age, but if anything, that will come into play with her relationship with Littlefinger on the show, not with the Hound.

LOL, of course he claimed he was "making shit up." What else was he going to say when a document leaked spoiling the identity of five surviving characters and strongly hinting at Sansa's death? He's also said many, many times that he's known the broad strokes of the ending since 1991 (two years before he wrote the outline) and has always known the arcs and endings for the main characters. So either he went to the trouble in 1993 of contriving a completely fake outline totally at odds with the arcs/endgames he had planned in his head--unlikely, since many elements of the outline correspond to ASOIAF events (Tyrion in exile after being blamed for murder, Winterfell being sacked and burned, etc.)--or he's lying when he claims he was "making shit up" in the outline. It seems pretty obvious to me which is the case.

He has always maintained he knew the broad strokes and the end. That what tv fans live on, so that's all they can comprehend, I guess? But that outline is changes far more from what story we have now than what is has in common. Cersei didn't even exist, and now she is a large POV character, among many other differences. He also said then, and a few similar iterations before the, that the characters and story grew in the process. And that he wishes somethings that seemed as foreshadowing then really aren't. 

I gather you like to work hard to make George seem incompetent because you bash him a lot? He didn't "go through the trouble to make a completely fake outline". Hell, the office building had to black out the last paragraph before posting it. What he has said is he hates writing them and never had to do it because that is not how the story comes to him. His story is character driven, not plot driven like the show. 

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