Le Cygne Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 3 hours ago, Kittykatknits said: Sansa is much less of an unreliable narrator than many readers tend to think. George's 3rd person limited style means all of the characters are, is wrong on everything, Tyrion tends assign his dwarfism as the cause of other's feelings/interactions with him, Jaime reads Brienne wrong in Storm, Arya's lack of knowledge regarding the North makes events at Harrenhal much harder for the reader to understand events. The really funny thing about Martin describing Sansa as an unreliable narrator is that his comment also describes Sansa getting Joff's sword name wrong, stating it as another example. However, George is the unreliable narrator here - if you look at the actual text, it was Arya that got the sword name wrong, not Sansa. I wrote an OP on this topic a few years back but can no longer find it As to SanSan, it felt good to see Sandor coming back after advocating for his return all these years. His story is done, my ass. I tried to find Martin's response to Lyanna Stark's question as to whether Sansa would get a replacement for her wolf but had no luck. IIRC, it was read and find out. Le Cygne would know it, if anyone does. Hey, Kittykatknits! I agree, it's that way for all the characters. And you are right, Arya is the one who got the sword name wrong. He said all of his characters do that. The kiss with Sandor is "important" he said. I think deep inside, she knows it didn't happen. It's what she wished had happened. She wants him to have that kiss. Also I agree, we knew all along Sandor would return. I think I remember that Lyanna asked that question, too. I'll see if I can find it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 10 minutes ago, tmug said: Interesting. I guess this would fulfill Tryion's original debt to the Mountain Clans technically. He promises them the Vale yet this was never concluded in the shows. I assume that Tywin either 1) paid them off with weapons and gold like they promised or 2) just murdered the whole lot of them and obliterated another group of people. They omitted the clansmen that Jon told Stannis to recruit probably to avoid confusion. It would be nice to see the Mountain Clans make a comeback in some fashion. Well, they pretty much skipped the possible events of crisis in the Vale for tWoW. I doubt we're going to see much of the Vale again, especially since there's a Vale army North. Yup, technically it would fulfill Tyrion's debt. The general book plot I predict to happen in the Vale would have several results : lots of noble sons killed (except for House Royce, of Bronze Yohn Royce. He's the sole house that does not attend the tourney). Winter and the avalanche make it impossible for the bannermen of those houses to come to their aid. All of LF's plans of safekeeping army and food are pretty much for nought. I think Yohn Royce will come to the aid of Northerners with the remainder, as well as even possibly make a settlement with the Mountain Clans, as Timett son of Timett might very likely be Harry's older cousin (the 4th niece of Jon Arryn got kidnapped by Burned Men, HtH is the son of the 5th niece. Hence why GRRM had LF do such an exposition on the many nieces of Jon Arryn). And if Mychel dies, then Yohn Royce's daughter is a widow. The Vale Clans are First Men who refused to bend the knee to the Andals, were chased off their lands or whose lords were killed in the Royce-Falcon Knight battle (at the location where the Gates of the Moon are) and couldn't be protected. The First Men had made a Royce king of the Vale against Andal invasion. But we basically get a total new political situation in the Vale, and like most regions, their military capacity will be hurt. No 45k army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Cygne Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 1 hour ago, LongRider said: If GRRM wants to write about the human heart in conflict, what better conflict than two lovers trying to navigate the conflict of class? To get together Sansa and Sandor will have to overcome that conflict. GRRM could do it easily, but the d's? Well, that's a whole 'nother story. However, Sansa and Sandor meeting again has great potential for the story and hopefully the d's won't blow it, and get the two together! Yes, agreed. I like the thought of her getting to choose this time. It's what she wants! And she sure seems to want him. I have this feeling they won't blow it, and it's going to be a bright spot on the show. From things we have seen and heard... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 5 hours ago, Le Cygne said: Here's hoping they don't. The Mountain clans in the books are raping and murdering the smallfolk. Tyrion said he wanted to "reduce the Vale of Arryn to a smoking wasteland" to spite Lysa. That's why Sandor and Arya couldn't make it to the Vale: Well it's only the Stone Crows who have been reported to do that. And I think the Stone Crows won't be in on the attack. There's an immense difference between Stone Crows (Shagga) and Burned Men (Timett). Strangely enough, though Timett is feared by everyone else, he's the guy and his Burned Men that Tyrion works with the most. They obey orders better. Are more organized. Even the Pycelle arrest with the prostitute being put outside shows a giant difference between Shagga and Timett. Shagga want the girl for himself as a prize, while Timett tries to explain to him the concept of whores, and seems offended by the concept of whores alltogether. Shagga is the colorful, the memorable one. Timett is much more low key. But even Sansa notes how Timett helps her get covered up in the throne room. Shagga never learned a thing and remained in the Kingswood. Chella offered her services to Tyrion again, but was sent away by the Gold Cloaks and returned to the mountains. Timett didn't even bother offering his services, though he was the most reliable one to do Tyrion's bidding before (odd) and immediately takes the battlefield gains to the mountains. The Burned Men are comparable to the book-Thenns. The Stone Crows are more like Wheeper and the men following the Wheeper. Just like some of the Ironborn and some of the Wildlings are willing to compromize for a better life, I think the same is true for the Mountain Clans. And then there are the murderous, reapers, ravers, rapists, and such who prefer that way over peace and better life amongst all three. I think all in all the Ironborn are the worst of these 3 groups, since they actually have mines and land to grow stuff, but were too proud to toil the soil and mines themselves. But the Mountain Clans barely have worthy land to live on. What they had was stolen from them, chased into those mountains, which would drive them lower to plunder villages, certainly in harvest and winter times. The Andals created the situation, and they could afford to for 1000s of years because of the combo Bloody Gate/Gates of the Moon/Eyrie. ETA: to make it Sandor-topic relevant... according to the World book, Burned Men are actually Painted Dogs (one of the Clan names) that "branched" off, following a woman from which their 'becoming a man' ritual origins... Those are Sandor references: a burned man, with 3 dogs as sigil (that might be painted on somewhere), a woman teaching him how to become a man (Sansa), and who split away from his original house's intent to be loyal to the Lannisters, and might start a new 'clan' with her. Don't know why or how George made the link, but it's no coincidence that he had Burned Men linked to Painted Dogs and a woman involved in their 'coming of age' ritual in a book that was published not so long ago. But it's why I think the Burned Men in the Vale are eventually positive related at least for Sansa and somehow have to do with Sansa reuniting with Sandor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Cygne Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 Well, we'll have to agree to disagree about the mountain clans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongRider Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 The topis is SanSan anyway, will they meet in the show? The mountain clans aren't in the show any more, so doubt they'll make a big comeback in the books either. However, in the show the Vale is still in play and so is Sweet Robin. He might like to hear what the Hound knows, and hear what Sansa knows about his mother's death too. If Sandor remembers LF holding a knife on Ned, could that jog Sansa's memory of the trauma of Lysa trying to kill her to only be killed, right in front of her by LF? That story needs the light of day. Sandor could really step into the persona of a 'true knight' and protect the weaker Sweet Robin from LF. Could win some kudos from Sansa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Cygne Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 11 minutes ago, LongRider said: The topis is SanSan anyway, will they meet in the show? The mountain clans aren't in the show any more, so doubt they'll make a big comeback in the books either. However, in the show the Vale is still in play and so is Sweet Robin. He might like to hear what the Hound knows, and hear what Sansa knows about his mother's death too. If Sandor remembers LF holding a knife on Ned, could that jog Sansa's memory of the trauma of Lysa trying to kill her to only be killed, right in front of her by LF? That story needs the light of day. Sandor could really step into the persona of a 'true knight' and protect the weaker Sweet Robin from LF. Could win some kudos from Sansa. Yes, of course the Sans will meet! He's heading north to do good, after whipping out his hound. In the books, I have a feeling Sandor and Sweetrobin will hit it off. A man and his kissing stand-in have to stick together. And he's the real deal, he can do the things that Sansa read to him about knights (that's so cool, that she's reading her mini Sandor knight stories). Sandor would go, WTF is LF doing here, right away. WTF is he doing there? They know enough bad about him, he should be locked up, at the very least. The Vale troops don't belong to him, but to Sweetrobin. He had to ask him, and he said, she's my cousin. Maybe what he's doing there is waiting for Sandor to go WTF is he doing here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashes Of Westeros Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 I see them reunite in the future, so Sandor could tell Sansa about the LF's role in Ned's downfall. I'm not sure that their reunion will be romantic (honestly I don't believe there will any romantic happy end in GoT or ASoIaF). Probably Sansa will kill LF in front of Sandor or with his help, proving what he earlier said to her "Killing is the sweetest thing" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Cygne Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 Well, back in season one, the showrunners said, the developing relationship between these two, much more to come... And just before the ending, they bring him back, and she is free, and he is heading her way. Seems like it's certainly a possibility. The last book is called a dream of spring, and she kept his cloak with her summer silks in a hope chest... Seems like ending a story with no romantic love would be quite the downer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quyen Thuy Tran Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 The thing is, will Sansa become a power hunger and use Sandor as a tool? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Cygne Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 No worries, he will tell her to kiss his arse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quyen Thuy Tran Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 18 minutes ago, Le Cygne said: No worries, he will tell her to kiss his arse. Lol Sandor rocks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darksky Posted July 12, 2016 Share Posted July 12, 2016 On 11.07.2016 at 6:15 PM, Le Cygne said: Sansa's romantic feelings for Sandor, and Sandor's romantic feelings for Sansa, were actually written by the author, not readers. That's not a theory, it's already happened. The speculation is, there will be more. But that's based on what the author has written, too. She pretended they kissed and placed him in the marriage bed in her last chapter. He died sobbing about the pretty little bird. The author is writing a romance for them, based on La Belle et la Bete, and said there's more to come... Show, they've been hinting a lot, but this scene in particular (a parallel to La Belle et la Bete) calls out "to be continued"... And now he's back, and heading north. Also, the story is focused on Sansa choosing Sandor. Men were chosen for her, but this time, she gets to choose. Happiness is wished for both characters, it's mutual. Wasn't that scene written by Martin? SanSan is a likely scenario in the books. But imo D+D dropped the concept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Cygne Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 SanSan is a D&D thing, too. They wrote many of their scenes together, including the name day scene and the scene where he gives her his cloak, he is standing between the two unwanted Lannisters when she is wearing his cloak and stands to face him. The romantic rescue scene was written by one of their writers, but they were there for the filming (the director called it beautiful), and they wrote the thank you scene after, they added the pledging himself line, and they said "it's a good thing that Rory is as tall as he is, Sophie must have grown a foot in the first year of the show, luckily she's playing against Rory." For for this scene they wrote, they said "the developing relationship between these two, yep, much more to come"... They wrote the scenes where she's his dying thought (the pretty sister and you remember where the heart are book lines, they added the one happy memory line) and he's the one she dreams of (at the same point in the book story where she dreams of him in bed with her, that's an out of focus dissolve used for dreams). They wrote a bunch of parallels and hints, like these: Season 2 Blackwater, an ale scene the showrunners added, Sandor drinks to give him courage (there's also a beauty reference). Then the Beauty and the Beast scene a la Cocteau with Sansa before he leaves. Season 4 premiere, after the sad no to "didn't you steal something from Joffrey before you left," then he says "I've had better" in another ale scene the showrunners wrote/directed. Season 4, a soup and ale scene. He's drinking the soup just like Sansa (another Beauty and the Beast take off). They included lots of moments and parallels for Sansa and Sandor that season. Season 5, Sansa wonders why men love ale, it's to give them courage (like he did). Also in season 5, another beauty and the beast reference, Ramsay expected a bearded beast and got a beauty. Season 6, Sansa is drinking soup just like Sandor in season 4 (same exact pose, the bowl even looks the same). Good soup, she says. And again she drinks ale. There will be another time... Season 6, Sandor is promised soup and ale... (this one written by one of their writers) They also wrote a bunch of Blackwater callbacks and other parallels, including a bunch of beauty and beast references (and of course, the book scenes are following that)... There's a whole lot more... They wrote the ask her who came back for her scene and now one of their writers wrote it's never too late to come back, and now he is going north, just at the right point in the story, it's not too late for you. (And no doubt it was their idea to hint at his sexuality with the penis shot.) So they wrote a bunch of book scenes and added their own scenes and touches, and of course, the GRRM scenes (he called this scene beautiful) are written at their direction. Also here's Sandor looking at LF with the knife to Ned's throat... (fixed the broken link) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 3 minutes ago, Le Cygne said: snip The Pooch That Was Promised Is going to Winterfell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Cygne Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 2 hours ago, OldGimletEye said: The Pooch That Was Promised Is going to Winterfell. They have lots of chicken there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrypticWeirwood Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 On Saturday, July 09, 2016 at 1:10 PM, Leticia Stark said: And yet I've seen many many people on twitter and facebook saying that they got some "incest feelings" while watching their scenes, even some articles said the same. But I agree, Jon x Sansa would be really weird, I think people only like to see Kit and Sophie together on screen. That may change soon when Emilia get in the picture tho But Sansa will have to fight her way through Yara to get to Dany. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKnightOfJests Posted July 13, 2016 Author Share Posted July 13, 2016 1 hour ago, CrypticWeirwood said: But Sansa will have to fight her way through Yara to get to Dany. :-) Perhaps they'll have a three way. The dragon has three heads after all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 11 hours ago, Le Cygne said: Also here's Sandor looking at LF with the knife to Ned's throat... Great find. All I have to say is: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Future Null Infinity Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 A question, please, does anyone asked GRRM the question if san in sansa and sandor was intentional or not? thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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