SanSan next season?

[Nutbean]

15 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

 he's the one she dreams of (at the same point in the book story where she dreams of him in bed with her, that's an out of focus dissolve used for dreams). 

Can you help me understand this?

If this were D&D's intention, and I'm not saying it wasn't, wouldn't it make a lot more sense if they put the scene of Sandor trying to go to sleep right afterwards to help audiences make the connection? Instead, after Sansa turns over and the out of focus dissolve used for dreams happens, it cuts to a scene with Tywin and Cersei. 

[Le Cygne]

There's a scene in the same episode where Sandor and Arya are trying to sleep. Sandor is looking up at the stars. Arya is framed the same way as Sansa, and she says, "The Hound" as her eyes close. That cuts to Sansa and Lysa the morning after indulging in lemoncakes.

Another cut, the one in the premiere, they directed that one. They cut from Sansa's face to Sandor's, they had to pan down to catch him first. That's when he is asked, didn't you steal anythng from Joffrey before you left? He says no, sadly. Later, in the dying scene, he regrets not taking her with him.

They had a lot of fun with this in season 4. The chickens, looking at Arya, I've had better. The sewing scenes. The slapping a bratty kid scenes. The walking up to the Bloody Gate scenes. He lost his wife in a fire and was never the same. The Beast scene with the soup. How can a man not keep ale in his home?

Even season 5, another ale scene, she wonders why men like it, it gives them courage. Ramsay says he expected a bearded beast but got a beauty. She said he hurt her. Before she said Sandor won't hurt her. This season, a man who didn't hurt a woman, he didn't want to leave her, she didn't want to leave him.

Sansa drinks soup like the Beast now. There are more important things, she says. And she tries ale again. Right on cue, Sandor has a soup and ale scene. "I'll save you a bowl of soup, might even some ale hidden away." He smiles. There will be another ale scene, and I bet Sansa will like it...

Another, Sandor asks, if the gods are real, why haven't they punished me, and is told they have. That cuts to Margaery reading from the book of the seven, "soothing what was jagged, a woman's love calms a man's brute nature." Then another, Sansa, who mentions Blackwater, writing for help, cut to Sandor, and Ray tells him it's never too late to come back...

There's more...

[Darksky]

22 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

SanSan is a D&D thing, too. They wrote many of their scenes together, including the name day scene and the scene where he gives her his cloak, he is standing between the two unwanted Lannisters when she is wearing his cloak and stands to face him. The romantic rescue scene was written by one of their writers, but they were there for the filming (the director called it beautiful), and they wrote the thank you scene after, they added the pledging himself line, and they said "it's a good thing that Rory is as tall as he is, Sophie must have grown a foot in the first year of the show, luckily she's playing against Rory." For for this scene they wrote, they said "the developing relationship between these two, yep, much more to come" and they also wrote the scene after. They wrote the scenes where she's his dying thought (the pretty sister and you remember where the heart are book lines, they added the one happy memory line) and he's the one she dreams of (at the same point in the book story where she dreams of him in bed with her, that's an out of focus dissolve used for dreams). They wrote a bunch of parallels and hints, including the Beast and Beauty soup and ale scenes (Cogman wrote his soup and ale callback this season) and they wrote the ale scenes going back to season 2 and ever since. They also wrote a bunch of Blackwater callbacks  and other parallels, including a bunch of beauty and beast references (and of course, the book scenes are following that)... There's a whole lot more... They wrote the ask her who came back for her scene and now one of their writers wrote it's never too late to come back, and now he is going north, just at the right point in the story, it's not too late for you. (And no doubt it was their idea to hint at his sexuality with the penis shot.) So they wrote a bunch of book scenes and added their own scenes and touches, and of course, the GRRM scenes (he called this scene beautiful) are written at their direction.

Also here's Sandor looking at LF with the knife to Ned's throat...

Most of those are quite the stretches. But anyway, this doesn't change the fact the concept seems to have been dropped once Sandor left.

[Le Cygne]

Benioff and Weiss aren't nearly as good at writing romance as GRRM, but they are persistent, I'll give them that. Of the two, Weiss is the one who always brings nice things up. Just remembered the bird feather they had Sansa find, he said it was from a man who remembered the woman he loved. 

[Karmarni]

On 7/10/2016 at 9:40 PM, Le Cygne said:

he show has absolved him, and... they made it clear he's still a great fighter. He avenges a friend. How much more he would avenge the woman he loves...

And she's ready to fight, too. She's more like him now. He's more like her now. They meet in the middle. That's what the show is doing. All those hints, over and over and over again, since he left, that's what it's about. There is someone like her, he had the same dreams, he was playing with the knight toy when he was burned. They both found out the hard way, the world is a hard place. But... there just might be some happiness to be found, together. They bring out the best in each other.

"There's plenty worse than me. There are men who like to beat little girls. Men who like to rape them. Saved your sister from some of them. Ask her, if you ever see her again. Ask her who came back for her, when the mob had her on her back. They would have taken her every which way and left her with her throat cut open."

"It's never too late to come back."

These are excellent points. I think the show is looking at them as a "lady" and her "knight" and the closer they come together, meeting in the middle, as you say. She's tougher, a "hardened woman" and he's had to spend time with her sister, and then the folks from Ray's flock. They seemed fine with him, except maybe the men might have been a little scared, just as Ray said. Arya was fine with telling him to step away from taking a shit! For instance, Sansa prays quite a bit in the books, and has a moment or two of it in the show. But she's drawn away from religion, just as Sandor has done some time with religion. It's a tempering of their characters, she, wiser and less convinced by words (though I think she's a little ways to go on that), and he, more rounded at the edges, less sharp and rough. In the first and second seasons, the show subtly hinted this would be, as we are given two hallway scenes where they meet, once, she, frightened of all that's happening (and of him, since LF on the show tries to scare Sansa with the burned face story), she backs away, he must take her to Cersei. Second hallway scene they pass each other by without speaking, then she stops him, they turn and that's probably one of the most interesting moments the show has set up between them. She, all pious and pure of heart in her belief that there are good men like daddy, and he, knowing well and true that even good men will be happy to kill and be pleased by it, given the circumstance. Let's just imagine if Ned got his wish to kill Littlefinger, instead of having Catelyn hold him back. He would have thought it a pretty sweet thing, I'd venture to say.

All in all, these two characters have a lot in common and their differences are complimentary. They were written to be that way, of course. And all that happens in the show is D&D&C picking some of the none-book moments to make their "story" of the real story. But in the real story, Sansa Stark dreams of Sandor Clegane. In her bed. So, I'm willing to say that the show will do their own thing with it, but I'm sure they have been adding layers to the story while Sandor and Sansa were together and when they've been apart. 

[Darksky]

5 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Benioff and Weiss aren't nearly as good at writing romance as GRRM, but they are persistent, I'll give them that. Of the two, Weiss is the one who always brings nice things up. Just remembered the bird feather they had Sansa find, he said it was from a man who remembered the woman he loved. 

Martin is awful at writing romance and sex scenes tbh.

[Karmarni]

1 hour ago, Le Cygne said:

Ramsay says he expected a bearded beast but got a beauty.

That was funny!!! I forgot about that one.

18 minutes ago, Darksky said:

Most of those are quite the stretches. But anyway, this doesn't change the fact the concept seems to have been dropped once Sandor left.

Nah, I disagree. They're interesting pieces of the story. The show has woven in their own little beauty and beast motif (along with "monster", they like that word of GRRM's too). The show does it with Jaime and Brienne too. 

I don't think they have necessarily dropped anything they were doing. It's a damn big, rambling story. All the scenes are really just drama school skits with some lovely locations and some nice-ish costumes and sets. And CGI dragons. So I can't expect they're going to completely take over and make all these references to them while they are apart. The show just isn't that way. Jon never mooned over leaving Ygritte. Hasn't mentioned her now that she's dead either. Think he's forgotten? I bet he hasn't.

[Future Null Infinity]

I'm sure that 99.99% of you watched this video of GRRM talking about SanSan, it looks to me that he played with the story and it looks to me that he's against any future continuation of the relationship between the two, sure unless D&D got their own idea about it 

 

[OldGimletEye]

 

30 minutes ago, Darksky said:

Most of those are quite the stretches. But anyway, this doesn't change the fact the concept seems to have been dropped once Sandor left.

If I were only confident in D & D's ability to write human bonds realistically. 

Using this train logic, I have to wonder if Jon will even know who Arya is when she shows up to Winterfell. The intense bond between Arya and Jon seems to have been a concept that got dropped too. Or maybe, they just like having the big surprise so much, that everything else just takes a back seat.

[Nutbean]

1 hour ago, Karmarni said:

The show does it with Jaime and Brienne too. 

Yeah, but they've also had them actually look longingly at each other (Jaime when passing Tarth and Brienne when seeing Jaime again in Riverrun). A lot easier for the average viewer to pick up on.

As for SanSan, I see evidence of it in the show more on the Hound's side than Sansa's. He's mentioned her since they parted and his "dying" words called back to her wistfully. 

I do think there's a good chance that the show will go there in the end but I don't think they've done a good job at showing that Sansa's been thinking of the Hound at all since he left which, I agree, she's done consistently in the books. 

As a book reader, I too am looking for signs in the show but I have to say that I never thought that because she mentioned ale in a scene and Sandor also mentions ale in a different scene that that was a hint to a future romance so I doubt non-book readers or casual watchers of the show would pick up on that either. 

I get that there is limited time to dwell on such things, however, she had his cloak both in the show and in the books, the significance of which is not lost on me at all. How hard would it have been to have her whip it out one time? Or would that have just been too obvious? D&D prefer to hint at SanSan through the way they both eat soup...? 

TL;DR - I think SanSan is a definite possibility in the show but since The Battle of the Blackwater, I think there's been very little evidence of it from Sansa's perspective. 

[TheKnightOfJests]

3 hours ago, Future Null Infinity said:

I'm sure that 99.99% of you watched this video of GRRM talking about SanSan, it looks to me that he played with the story and it looks to me that he's against any future continuation of the relationship between the two, sure unless D&D got their own idea about it 

 

He said there's still something there though....

[Le Cygne]

4 hours ago, Karmarni said:

All in all, these two characters have a lot in common and their differences are complimentary. They were written to be that way, of course. And all that happens in the show is D&D&C picking some of the none-book moments to make their "story" of the real story. But in the real story, Sansa Stark dreams of Sandor Clegane. In her bed. So, I'm willing to say that the show will do their own thing with it, but I'm sure they have been adding layers to the story while Sandor and Sansa were together and when they've been apart. 

Agreed. They don't do time apart well at all, but when they were together, lots of people were into them. Everyone and his mama were picking up the vibes. Because the structure is a romance.

And lots of people picked up the hints afterwards. Many got the Beauty and the Beast drinking soup reference right away - it's from the Disney movie. They had him act all Beastly in season 4.

And there were lots of obvious parallels with him and Sansa. And I knew they would start those up again this season, too. This is a pairing for the end, is my guess. Saving the best for last.

Also here's that article where Kit talks about how he tried to show he was missing Ygritte, he knew he was from the books, but they wouldn't let him show it. He tried on his own:

http://www.elle.com/culture/movies-tv/news/a24864/kit-harington-dragon-interview/

[Le Cygne]

17 minutes ago, TheKnightOfJests said:

He said there's still something there though....

Yeah, all of them said that. He said it. The two hosts said it. They all said there's something there. He teases SanSan all the time.

He brought it up. He always brings it up. He's proud of it. And he should be. All these people, he said. They responded. Success.

[Le Cygne]

3 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

If I were only confident in D & D's ability to write human bonds realistically. 

Using this train logic, I have to wonder if Jon will even know who Arya is when she shows up to Winterfell. The intense bond between Arya and Jon seems to have been a concept that got dropped too. Or maybe, they just like having the big surprise so much, that everything else just takes a back seat.

Yeah, when the concepts meet again, the concepts will be very happy to see each other. They do likey the big moment.

[Darksky]

7 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

 

If I were only confident in D & D's ability to write human bonds realistically. 

Using this train logic, I have to wonder if Jon will even know who Arya is when she shows up to Winterfell. The intense bond between Arya and Jon seems to have been a concept that got dropped too. Or maybe, they just like having the big surprise so much, that everything else just takes a back seat.

The Arya-Jon bond has never been established in the show. Don't compare the two. Arya-Jon are different in the show.

About the cloak thing and it signifying great love or something. Are Jon and Sansa in love? because, you know, he gave Sansa his cloak when they reunited, then Sansa made him one herself. 

[Nutbean]

5 hours ago, Darksky said:

The Arya-Jon bond has never been established in the show. Don't compare the two. Arya-Jon are different in the show.

About the cloak thing and it signifying great love or something. Are Jon and Sansa in love? because, you know, he gave Sansa his cloak when they reunited, then Sansa made him one herself. 

Jon and Sansa are in love just like Arya is in love with Sandor the way she's been thinking about him since they parted ways. They just switched sisters (sorry, couldn't resist).

Seriously though, the cloak thing in the books is actually well done in my opinion. Of course in the show, Sansa fled Ramsay with just the clothes on her back so if she did keep it, she doesn't have it anymore anyway. 

As for the parallels in the show with the Beauty and the Beast story, for sure there are. I'm not disputing that at all. However, it still doesn't establish Sansa mooning over Sandor and that's what has been sorely missing. 

[OldGimletEye]

5 hours ago, Darksky said:

The Arya-Jon bond has never been established in the show. Don't compare the two. Arya-Jon are different in the show. 

Evidently, a few people, at least, have a different opinion than you do on this matter.Or have gotten a different impression.

1. From HBO’s own website.

http://www.hbo.com/game-of-thrones/cast-and-crew/arya-stark/video/arya-stark-character-feature.html?autoplay=true

Maise Williams explains the nature of her relationship with Jon. It starts right around the 42 second mark.

2. From http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Jon_Snow

 

Quote

He was on good terms with both Bran and Rickon as well as having a friendly rival in Lord Eddard's wardTheon Greyjoy. However, Jon's closest relationship was with Lord Stark's younger daughter,Arya, who as an adventurous tomboy prone to un-ladylike pursuits also felt like a social outsider.

3. From http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Arya_Stark

Quote

She is close to her "half-brother" Jon, who is also something of an outcast.

I know the wikia’s aren’t official sources, but I’d submit that evidently a few people have a different impression than you do.

4. Arya Stark and the Waif

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYWdklp3lVE

Now notice in this particular clip, Arya says she has “four brothers.” The waif then hits her. And then Arya says, “three brothers”. It seems the point here is that Arya considers Jon to be her full brother, even though Jon is her half bastard brother.

But, let’s say your right here. Let’s say, for the sake of argument, the completely ignored Jon and Arya’s special bond. The question is then: Why in the fuck would D & D do that? In the books, the bond between Jon and Arya are important to both characters. It’s a part of their core beings. Take it out and they aren’t the same characters.

And certainly, Jon and Arya’s relationship is better than one of D & D’s made up relationships like Robb & Talisa.

I think it's rather interesting that you make an assertion without offering up one iota of evidence for that assertion. But, then try to casually dismiss something by writing:

 

12 hours ago, Darksky said:

Most of those are quite the stretches. But anyway, this doesn't change the fact the concept seems to have been dropped once Sandor left.

When, you know, somebody else actually tries to offer up some evidence for their views and aren't just making an assertion without offering up some actual evidence.

5 hours ago, Darksky said:

About the cloak thing and it signifying great love or something. Are Jon and Sansa in love? because, you know, he gave Sansa his cloak when they reunited, then Sansa made him one herself. 

Well, you just never know, what is really going on with the show, since like you know, you have to watch outside the episode or whatever to figure out what you just watched. Particularly, since Sansa’s entire arc in the North in season 5 has been a complete ass pull and some of D & D’s choices aren’t always easy to follow.

But, I’d suggest that exchange of cloaks might, yes, signify a degree of affection between the two characters that you would normally expect to find between two siblings who have come to appreciate their family more. I’ve never been one to believe in any sort of Jon/Sansa shipping trash, but the cloaks may very well signify a degree of protectiveness between the two, even though Jon and Sansa obviously have a very complicated relationship and evidently there is going to be a degree of strife between them next season.

[Le Cygne]

The Arya and Jon bond was established in season 1. And Arya tried to get back to him several times. She also mentioned him twice after they parted. There was also SUBTEXT. The scene with Needle. The scene where she wanted to go to the Wall.

So add that together. Close bond in season 1. All the little hints after. Bingo...

Now, did Jon remember her explicitly? No. The showrunners are very uneven with the way they portray things. We can pretend that means the bond is only on one side, but that would be silly. Why would they go to all of this trouble?

Kit himself said he wanted to show he was missing Ygritte and they would not help him. We know he was missing Ygritte. That's the way Benioff and Weiss do things, unfortunately. But after 6 seasons, you get the hang of the way they do things.

Ditto for Sansa and Sandor. We have enough clues to know, they are telling the book story. They have done a gazillion little hints and parallels, after showing nearly all their book scenes together. Over and over and over again, they come back to it. Every season.

Is it done to my complete satisfaction? No. Not at all. They messed the story up badly, they missed so many great opportunities, but they do this across the board. And one can both see how they mess up stories and see the story they are telling. They are going there, it's obvious.

As for Jon and Sansa, there's no bond, no romance, there never was. They tell us over and over, just siblings, with issues. Lack of trust, jealousy and anger, etc. Not a romance. Sansa gave Jon a cloak and said here, be like Dad. And no, Jon did not give Sansa his cloak.

That's very different from the Westeros ceremony of the man giving the woman the cloak, like Sandor did to Sansa. And it doesn't matter if she still has it because it's symbolic. They carefully filmed that scene, they have everyone on their marks. And they filmed many of their scenes from the books...

(put the link on another post)

[Darksky]

60 hours worth of footage and Arya mentioned him twice. Jon mentioned her a total of 0 times. What a special bond they have, Show Arya and Jon were not meant to be so close. It's the way the showrunners decided to do their relationship.

Jon and Sansa have been portrayed as closer than Jon and Arya. Why would they have Jon's trajectory cross with Sansa's and not Arya? At least, as a first Snow-Stark reunion. Maybe they determined it on the fact the former look good next to each other. It's aesthetically pleasing to the viewersn to see two popular pretty faces interact. And it's a drama show, tension is necessary to keep people interested.

Jon and Arya are not the same people they were in season 1. I doubt the understanding and the deep bond would be there even if they had established it during their time apart.

[TheKnightOfJests]

1 hour ago, Nutbean said:

Jon and Sansa are in love just like Arya is in love with Sandor the way she's been thinking about him since they parted ways. They just switched sisters (sorry, couldn't resist).

Seriously though, the cloak thing in the books is actually well done in my opinion. Of course in the show, Sansa fled Ramsay with just the clothes on her back so if she did keep it, she doesn't have it anymore anyway. 

As for the parallels in the show with the Beauty and the Beast story, for sure there are. I'm not disputing that at all. However, it still doesn't establish Sansa mooning over Sandor and that's what has been sorely missing. 

There is always the chance of them not throwing it away. Like maybe and episode begins with her frantically searching through her old room trying to find something. She pulls out the cloak, and we fade to a "Previously on Game of Thrones" we see all the Sansa and Sandor scenes meshed together, and then the intro.