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Jon's Queen Consort

Val is Jon’s true Queen. Part trois.

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On 7/13/2016 at 3:56 AM, sweetsunray said:

The 200 years is on purpose. It coincides with another 200 years ago event. That of "Good Queen" Alysanne coming to WF with Jahaerys and dragons (what a diplomatic peaceful gesture ain't it), who has the Starks surrender land so she can give the New Gift to the NW (something the Starks warned was folly and did protest against by letter with the Citadel) AND who gifts the NW another "better" castle than that "horrid" Nightfort with its sooo very magical black gate. The NIghtfort was abandoned 200 years ago, no more direwolves seen for 200 years. In those 200 years Stark attitudes alter significantly. About 100 years after Good Queen Alysanne's visit all the brothers of a Stark sister protested heavily against her being married to a southerner. They even refused to attend the wedding. But after 180 years Rickard arranged suddenly nothing but southern marriages: Brandon-Cat, Robert-Lyanna, while of course the maesters kept on teaching that wargs and the likes are but fairytales.

You are right that dogs are said to be the easiest to bond with. But in the changed political climate of those 200 years a Stark warging his pet dog may not have been recognized as a warg, and I'm pretty sure that whomever was the maester at that time would dispell a young Stark child from thinking too much about the close bond he has with the dog, and perhaps make sure it got killed somehow. If a Stark warg as a kid doesn't have a Jojen around him to insist that what is happening is warging but only a maester to disuade him from it, then that kid at some point will do like Robb when older, or lose the bonded pet like Sansa, and simply not develop it.

I agree that the visit of Alysanne and Jaeherys was significant and the cause of much that you identify(changes in attitude re: marriages, etc.) ... However, I think the disappearance of the direwolves south of the wall is actually tied to an earlier event - The Conquest and the kneeling of Torrhen Stark (strongly objected to by his brother, and no doubt others). We don't hear (e.g.) of a sudden cull, or purging, or a bounty being placed on direwolves, or a sudden exodus of direwolves past the Shadow Tower ;)... though it's possible we just haven't heard of anything like that yet, I suspect something more gradual. 

Considering the relatively sparse population of the north, it would take years, perhaps a generation of men or more, for the direwolves to either be killed off through being hunted at a normal rate, or to be starved out due to men taking over their territory and protecting stock animals, or competing for prey.

So, 200 yrs. coinciding with Alysanne's visit is a bit too precise to be realistic, for me. It's very possible that, costly as the result may have been, Torrhen's bastard brother Brandon Snow had the right of it, magically speaking .. and that Torrhen unwittingly caused a deterioration in the magic when he knelt.

Your second paragraph presents an entirely reasonable scenario, but I have suspicions (only suspicions, but strong ones) that there's more at work, specifically magic.

As @kissdbyfire points out, GRRM doesn't want to discuss the genetics of the Starks  (and he's said similar things on other occasions) which I think means - if it's explained too fully, it ceases to be magic and becomes science.. so he may never completely satisfy our curiosity. Something is in play, just not genetics as we know it.

I can't help feeling that there is a magic specific to Starks .. perhaps a sort of blood magic... that is more than, or somewhat different than, whatever-it-is that makes your "everyday" skinchanger. I don't think there can be a doubt that there's some sort of magical resonance (at least) between the magic of the Wall and Starks, which seems to come to the fore particularly at times of a perceived threat (originally, from the Others).. As knowledge / fear of the Others recedes over time (because they're in abeyance), a new threat is perceived in the wildlings .. And a sense that it's best to have a Stark in command in troubled times could still persist - explaining the many Stark LCs, even boys - when rationally, men should be preferable.

I imagine some components combined to create the magic might be - blood/sap of weirwoods (more or less immortal) for keeping the magic alive for as close to forever as possible, even through periods of dormancy ... Starks, for whatever reasons, depending on whether the magic was worked before or after the long night, and on whether the last hero was a Stark. (I tend to think he was.) .. and a third component.. (3 is a very magic number) 

It's worth noting that TLH's last companion to fall was his dog.. TLH may or may not have been a skinchanger, but we can glean something of his character, - his dedication and determination, and his ability to command extreme loyalty. All his companions followed him through years and hardships, even to their deaths. ... So, I think a third component of the spell would involve direwolves - a stronger animal than a dog, or even a regular wolf,and I think, an animal very difficult to skinchange, if not normally impossible .... Varamyr thinks Ghost would provide a second life fit for a king - This is often seen only as foreshadowing for Jon, but direwolves are the sigil / companions of the Kings of Winter, and the Starks are well known north of the Wall.

Varamyr forces himself on some impressive animals, but not any of "mythic' proportions.

Leaf tells Bran... "...this is our long dwindling. The giants are almost gone as well, they who were our bane and our brothers. The great lions of the western hills have been slain, the unicorns are all but gone, the mammoths down to a few hundred. The direwolves will outlast us all, but their time will come as well.." ... Leaf equates these animals with unicorns , which we equate with magic. She explains how the situation stands, now .. but it might have been foreseen long ago. Magical steps may have been taken to ensure that if a future hero should be needed, a direwolf would be one advantage he would have over the Last Hero.

This brings me to TWoIaF, Kings of Winter .....  Chronicles found in the archives of the Night's Watch at the Nightfort (before it was abandoned) speak of the war for Sea Dragon Point, wherein the Starks brought down the Warg King and his inhuman allies, the children of the forest. When the Warg King's last redoubt fell, his sons were put to the sword, along with his beasts and greenseers, whilst his daughters were taken as prizes by their conquerors.

From this, some readers deduce that the Starks acquired their skinchanging abilities through marrying the Warg King's daughters, but I disagree. I think the Stark who brought TWK down was already a warg, himself, but bonded with a direwolf, not merely a wolf. I suspect that there might have been divergent, not necessarily directly opposing factions among the CotF. I don't think "his inhuman allies, the CotF" should be taken to mean that all the CotF were his allies and the use of "his beasts and greenseers" ..makes that plain, IMO. Obviously, not all beasts and not all greenseers were "put to the sword"... only his.

His sons were put to the sword, but not necessarily brothers, sisters, cousins, etc.. and so the daughters that were taken as "prizes" may not have been taken as wives, at all.. but as hostages, to ensure good behaviour on the part of other relations.  It sounds to me like his CotF allies and greenseers were a splinter group that was backing the wrong horse.

All the use of the possessive "his" makes me think of Stannis and "his red witch" and the way Stannis at least started out taking advantage of her magic to further his ambitions without truly buying into her belief or agenda. .. I'm feeling a hint of this vibe from The Warg King (probably the same figure as " the skinchanger Gaven Greywolf and his kin" felled by a Stark "in "the savage War of the Wolves," "

I'm not saying that the Starks were not ambitious (hard men in hard times), but their long struggle to gain rulership of the North took place after the Long Night, so if they are incorporated into the magic of the Wall, it's not only their own ambitions driving them. Their ambitions are compatible with, or even possibly essential to the CotF ambition to preserve life.

If the Stark skinchanging ability only materializes when there is a threat to that magic, then not only the Others, but even a human threat to Stark rule would threaten the Wall magic, and invoke it (Hence,there must always be a Stark in WF) .. and I postulate that it would take contact with direwolf to fully trigger it.

Coming back to Val, among the ways she might be "a good fit" ;) for Jon and be important to the story going forward, is the suggestion that she senses that there's a certain (perhaps undefinable) interchangeability between Jon and "wall magic", when she double checks whether Jon killed Jarl -echoed in the fact that Jon sees himself reflected "inside" the wall of the ice cell, and the way he thinks that if the wall hadn't killed Jarl, he might have.(Yes, it fits with the way the action might have developed, but doubles as a hint at the Stark connection to the wall.)  

I think there must be a Wildling version of the Long Night story and/or hero prophecy. So many people have one, and the First Men were on the front lines. Dalla told Jon,"We free folk know things you kneelers have forgotten." ...  I suspect we'll learn a good deal of that through Val.

 In Tormund's joking about stealing Val, something about Val is being held back from Jon, not because of Jon, but because of Mel. Dalla's caution .. "..The Horned Lord once said that sorcery is a sword without a hilt. There is no safe way to grasp it." .. is in the same vein as Val's.. "Fire is a fickle thing. No one knows which way a flame will go."  (the quote continues) Val put a foot into a stirrup, swung her leg over her horse's back, and looked down from the saddle. "Do you remember what my sister told you?"
"Yes." A sword without a hilt, with no safe way to hold it." 

This connects Val's statement to the scene where Mance calls Dalla a "wise woman" and "true queen" Then, Dalla dispensed wisdom to Jon (and no doubt had, to Mance); now, Val does.

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On 14.7.2016 at 1:47 PM, dmc515 said:

One interesting part of the text that been bothering me is when Jon tells us, "Men poured from the surrounding keeps and towers. Northmen, free folk, queen’s men…"  What Northmen?  Is he referring to NW members?  If so, this seems strange coming from Jon - one would think he'd say "brothers" or something.  While I haven't re-read the rest of ADWD in over a year now, it was my understanding the northmen that came to the wall for Alys' wedding and to complain about the wildings (Flint, Norrey) had left by this time.  Just seems odd wording on Martin's part.  Maybe it reflects Jon no longer thinking of NW as "brothers" or something?

I thought that some of the clansmen people were still there.

On 14.7.2016 at 1:47 PM, dmc515 said:

That's very true, it is of primary interest to me.  While the NW wouldn't know about Mel's most infamous deeds, they surely know she's the one responsible for the spectacle of the Mance burning and all the (seemingly daily) ceremonies/praying that would come off as creepy to a regular Westerosi as it would if you saw it outside Starbucks or something.  In terms of her "showing her powers," I wonder if they'd be aware of her burning Eagle-Orell?  Anyway, she is pretty consistently portrayed as projecting a fearsome and supernatural aura to most everybody even without the display of "powers."

Yeah, and that might have been a reason why they might have wanted to ensure that she could not interfere with their plans for Jon. I'm not saying that this is the case but if there is a Marc Antony to Jon's Caesar it will be Melisandre. She is going to avenge his death and/or bring his murderers down.

On 14.7.2016 at 1:47 PM, dmc515 said:

LOL, I'd be down with more shadow assassins as well but after all they took out of Stannis I wonder how she would 'birth' a new one (at least until Jon is revived).  I'm also highly skeptical there will be any new Marsh regime, but if so, yeah, one would think she'd be integral in bringing them down.  However, count me against the use of glamors - it may be ridiculous to draw a line on what fantasy elements are used in the series, but I always found them too cheesy, even soapy.

Well, magic is supposed to become more and more important in the latter half of the series. Glamors are among the magics we know best as of yet.

Have you forgotten Mel asking Davos whether he would want to make shadow assassins with her? It seems that no special blood is required (unless it turns out that Davos is, in fact, a bastard Aerys fathered on some Flea Bottom wench in his glory days). No idea who would step in for Davos at the Wall. Ser Axell maybe, or even young Devan. Wildling men and Selyse's knights could work, too.

And we should not discard those shadows easily. If Mel is right about the Wall those might be more than those fleeting shadows she used as assassins. Perhaps they could stick around for a longer period of time doing a lot of stuff.

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On 7/14/2016 at 4:47 AM, dmc515 said:

One interesting part of the text that been bothering me is when Jon tells us, "Men poured from the surrounding keeps and towers. Northmen, free folk, queen’s men…"  What Northmen?

Flint and Norrey are still there, and.. Each had brought a tail of fighting men—five for Old Flint, twelve for The Norrey, all clad in ragged skins and studded leathers, fearsome as the face of winter.

They were at the wedding when the horn sounded announcing Val and Tormund's arrival, and at Jon's meeting atop the wall after returning from negotiating with Tormund.

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Some book sources to what a witch is in the ASOIAF world and how I think Val fits and could be one of possible two who heals Jon's physical body. If not Val alone, then Morna as #1, with Val assisting. Italics are quotes from different books:

Warrior witch, woods witch, priestess, or moonsinger, or godswife. Most of what we know about the witches in Westeros we learn from Mirri Maz Duur is Essos (as to not be too obvious to the reader. George makes you work for info.)

"My mother was godswife before me, and taught me all the songs and spells most pleasing to the Great Shepherd, and how to make the sacred smokes and ointments from leaf and root and berry. When I was younger and more fair, I went in caravan to Asshai by the Shadow, to learn from their mages. Ships from many lands come to Asshai, so I lingered long to study the healing ways of distant peoples. A moonsinger of the Jogos Nhai gifted me with her birthing songs, a woman of your own riding people taught me the magics of grass and corn and horse, and a maester from the Sunset Lands opened a body for me and showed me all the secrets that hide beneath the skin."

What Mirri learns and tells the reader and could easily apply to Val and her "wandering" ways, even if she is still young enough to still be learning (why she calls for a midwife):

  1. she learns songs and spells, including sacred smoke!
  2. ships come from ALL over
  3. different teachers teach different techniques
  4. a maester even teaches a witch about the inside of the body
  5. She did this while in a caraven.

Where were Dalla and Val found? Mance found them on his way from Winterfell to the wall, so clearly they were out and about doing what exactly?

In general:

  1. They are mentioned as exisiting in some name across 3/4 of Planetos. A warrior witch would be a combination of the witch as described here, but with the extra talent of being equipped to go into battle and/or give battle plan counsel.
  2. Some have the kiss of life.
    1. His wife was a woods witch. Whenever Ser Clarence killed a man, he'd fetch his head back home and his wife would kiss it on the lips and bring it back t' life.
  3. Spells can be cast in the form of songs or potions, and maybe glamours, if that is not strictly a shadowbinder talent.
    1. ."
      "A woods witch? Most are harmless creatures. They know a little herb-craft and some midwifery, but elsewise . . ."
    2. The herbwomen dealt in potions and spells
    3. Dany listens and learns spells not just from MMD, but from others she pays attention to, "Listening to the high ululating voices of the spellsingers,"
      1. Who else ululates???: "Mirri Maz Duur's voice rose to a high, ululating wail that sent a shiver down Dany's back. Some of the Dothraki began to mutter and back away. The tent was aglow with the light of braziers within." And then again here, "Dany stepped backward. The wood crackled, louder and louder. Mirri Maz Duur began to sing in a shrill, ululating voice. The flames whirled and writhed, racing each other up the platform."
  4. They act as healers and midwives or even pregnancy enders before the seed has planted.
    1. "Before," Dany said to the ugly Lhazareen woman, "I heard you speak of birthing songs …"
      "I know every secret of the bloody bed, Silver Lady, nor have I ever lost a babe," Mirri Maz Duur replied.
    2. "You're bastard-born yourself. And if Ygritte does not want a child, she will go to some woods witch and drink a cup o' moon tea. You do not come into it, once the seed is planted."
  5. They can work good and bad depending on the situation, but never seem to work "bad" unless for revenge.
    1.  Here, Val seems to be putting a spell, or charm, on the "the little monster" to protect him. We know that Val does not trust the magic of Melisandre
      "Craster's son?" Val shrugged. "He is no kin to me."
      [Jon] "I have heard you singing to him."
      "I was singing to myself. Am I to blame if he listens?" A faint smile brushed her lips. "It makes him laugh. Oh, very well. He is a sweet little monster."
  6. They are gifted with sight, or visions.
    1. The Ghost of High Heart for one, and too many to list, but ones we know... for instance the Red Wedding.
    2. What Varamyr/Lump's witch told his family inthe Dance prologue: "Your little one is with the gods now," the woods witch told his mother, as she wept. "He'll never hurt again, never hunger, never cry. The gods have taken him down into the earth, into the trees. The gods are all around us, in the rocks and streams, in the birds and beasts. Your Bump has gone to join them. He'll be the world and all that's in it."
  7. Witches have even been warriors and sung about in tales.
    1. Morna Whitemask, now at the wall, is named as a warrior witch, "The warrior witch Morna removed her weirwood mask just long enough to kiss his gloved hand and swear to be his man or his woman, whichever he preferred."
    2. In the songs, Nymeria is said to have been a witch and a warrior;
    3. Cape Wrath a challenge arose, from a woods witch known only as the Green Queen, who held the rainwood against Storm's End for the best part of a generation.
    4. Mern III (the Madling) showered gold and honors on a woods witch who claimed that she could raise armies of the dead to throw the Andals back.
    5. Thus, whilst singers and storytellers may regale us with colorful tales of Artos the Strong, Florian the Fool, Nine-Finger Jack, Sharra the Witch Queen, and the Green King of the Gods Eye,
  8. And the truth of it all is that the more the humans forget the real meaning of life, and that oaths don't mean shit, and the more magic leaves the world, the more dangerous the world becomes. As Val describes it, "The maesters may believe what they wish. Ask a woods witch if you would know the truth."

So even though we have this:

Dany kissed her sun-and-stars gently on the brow, and stood to face Mirri Maz Duur. "Your spells are costly, maegi."
"He lives," said Mirri Maz Duur. "You asked for life. You paid for life."
 
We also get this, and it is from Dany, whi had been dabbling in the spells MMD taught her:
"She told herself that there were powers stronger than hatred, and spells older and truer than any the maegi had learned in Asshai."
 

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@Jon's Queen Consort I know this thread was intended for gathering information about Val and Jon together. I just felt the need to add a little more information to your long list of glorious clues. Some will know many, but not all will know each.

Val is not a princess that same way that Dalla is not a queen:

A Storm of Swords - Jon I

"The good woman at the brazier," Mance Rayder went on, "is Dalla." The pregnant woman smiled shyly. "Treat her like you would any queen, she is carrying my child." He turned to the last two. "This beauty is her sister Val. Young Jarl beside her is her latest pet."
 

A Storm of Swords - Jon III

Jarl was with the Magnar; Mance had given them the joint command. Styr was none too pleased by that, Jon had noted early on. Mance Rayder had called the dark youth a "pet" of Val, who was sister to Dalla, his own queen, which made Jarl a sort of good brother once removed to the King-beyond-the-Wall.
If being a king is something that is inherited, even in the eyes of the southron people, here we know that Jarl is thought of as being a type of "married in" kin to Mance. Jon replaces Jarl, not only as Val's husband, but also as a possible heir... if the need comes around.
 

A Storm of Swords - Jon XI

"Dalla died." Jon was saddened by that still. "Val is her sister. She and the babe did not require much capturing, Your Grace. You had put the wildlings to flight, and the skinchanger Mance had left to guard his queen went mad when the eagle burned." Jon looked at Melisandre. "Some say that was your doing."

Here we have a clear sign that Dalla is left a guard as that of a queen. Val refers to this situation later when Jon left Wun Wun to guard her... because Val is Jon's queen. 

A Feast for Crows - Samwell I

"Val sent her to plead for Mance again."
"Oh." Val was the sister of the woman the King-beyond-the-Wall had taken for his queen.
 
And then we have this:

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XI

"Freedom of the castle you shall have, but I regret to say you must remain a captive. I can promise that you will not be troubled by unwanted visitors, however. My own men guard Hardin's Tower, not the queen's. And Wun Wun sleeps in the entry hall."
"A giant as protector? Even Dalla could not boast of that."
So, not only do we have Jon telling reader and Val alike that she is a captive (wildling for wife, Jon did steal (marry) her afterall), but she is being guarded like her sister and queen, Dalla, were. Val is flattered and impressed with Jon.
 
Who needs a diamond to say "I love you" when you have a giant! ;)
 
 

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I think a lot of people also skip over how much off screen interaction Jon & Val apparently have. He consistently refers back to things she told him in conversations we never see. So he clearly visits her often. And his thoughts turn to her more than he probably realizes. Someone in the thread pointed out that just as he's coming out of the Shieldhall and hears the screaming his immediate thought is of Val. Is someone hurting her? Is she in danger? It's like an alarm in his head that one word. She's the first thought in his mind despite the hundreds, perhaps thousands of people in CB.

And it's not the first time that's happened. Think back to Alys' wedding. When those two horns go off and they all realize it's wildlings at the gate Jon doesn't first think of Tormund or treaties or anything else. There's that one word thought in his head again. He announces "Wildlings" but he's thinking "Val". He's also clearly not trying to hear about other men trying to take her, brushing it off as ridiculous or outright warning them not to. Jon's mind, even his subconscious, is speaking volumes where Val is concerned even though he himself may not realize it. And for such an internal character that says a lot.

And there's enough of a spark that it's not just the wildlings who feel something is going on. The queen's men have clearly heard the rumors and they could only have heard them from the NW members. Those rumors don't just come from nowhere.

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6 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

 

While I still think Arya is most likely option for Jon based build up, I must say you really made some compelling arguments in this thread. While their attraction obviously is there, I guess I never really seriously considered Val as a endgame candidate for Jon because she's been such a minor character. But she's perfect for Jon in terms of his preference in women, and Jon would truly marry her "for love", since she's lowborn in the eyes of Westeros (I know she's a princess, but the westerosi nobles wouldn't considered her highborn). 

I also think GRRM missed an opportunity by not giving Val POVs. She's a small (so far), but compelling character. It would be a great to have a more extended insight to wildling culture, living hardships north of the Wall and the culture clash at the Wall in ADWD from the perspective of a wildling. 

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@GhostNymeria that's pretty awesome coming from a Jon-Arya poster! :cheers: Thanks. Atleast you know that if Jon does end up with Val, he will be well taken care of. 

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I don't believe a happy ending for Jon so... lol he won't have any queen. Or if he unfortunately has any queen, she won't be the one he loves. 

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50 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

@GhostNymeria that's pretty awesome coming from a Jon-Arya poster! :cheers: Thanks. Atleast you know that if Jon does end up with Val, he will be well taken care of. 

Well, just because I think Jon/Arya is the most likely outcome based on my interpertation, I don't dismiss the other options. I acknowledge that there is foreshadowing for Jon/Dany, Jon/Sansa(barely) and Jon/Val, and that any of those could happen.:cheers: 

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Is Arya and Jon really a thing? I mean just because there could be some plot reveal that makes them really cousins doesn't mean they would automatically go from loving each other as siblings for over a decade to wanting to sleep with each other.. Not to mention she's like 5 or 6 years younger than Jon and she won't be much older than Sansa now by endgame. What foreshadowing is there that could possibly point to them shipping?? And don't say the damn outline from when this series was all images in GRRMs head. I think it's safe to assume he tweaked the incest/ secret love plot over to the Lannister twins. 

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23 minutes ago, Yollo Lannister said:

Is Arya and Jon really a thing? I mean just because there could be some plot reveal that makes them really cousins doesn't mean they would automatically go from loving each other as siblings for over a decade to wanting to sleep with each other.. Not to mention she's like 5 or 6 years younger than Jon and she won't be much older than Sansa now by endgame. What foreshadowing is there that could possibly point to them shipping?? And don't say the damn outline from when this series was all images in GRRMs head. I think it's safe to assume he tweaked the incest/ secret love plot over to the Lannister twins. 

Lots of posters do think there is a future Jon-Arya relationship that will happen. I am sure there are threads on it if you want to read up on those ideas, I just don't know of any recent ones.

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1 minute ago, The Fattest Leech said:

 

Thanks for the info but I'll pass on the research, the notion is bonkers for me. Like snow would be interested in his kid sister, who's now on her way to becoming a zero emotion assassin is banana land. All because of a plot line 20+ years ago. Hell there's more foreshadowing that Arya will die than ship Jon. 

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6 minutes ago, Yollo Lannister said:

Thanks for the info but I'll pass on the research, the notion is bonkers for me. Like snow would be interested in his kid sister, who's now on her way to becoming a zero emotion assassin is banana land. All because of a plot line 20+ years ago. Hell there's more foreshadowing that Arya will die than ship Jon. 

No there isn't.

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4 minutes ago, GhostNymeria said:

No there isn't.

Most definitely more foreshadowing of death than her hooking up with Jon. She's one of my favorite characters and I'd still prefer her dead ruling the woods as Nymeria over turning Jon into a pedo..The only foreshadowing of them hooking up was created by reading too far into the lines after seeing George's plot line, without that plot line there would be nothing. 

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5 minutes ago, Yollo Lannister said:

Most definitely more foreshadowing of death than her hooking up with Jon. She's one of my favorite characters and I'd still prefer her dead ruling the woods as Nymeria over turning Jon into a pedo..The only foreshadowing of them hooking up was created by reading too far into the lines after seeing George's plot line, without that plot line there would be nothing. 

No, there were threads about them here long before the outline leaked.

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11 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Some book sources to what a witch is in the ASOIAF world and how I think Val fits and could be one of possible two who heals Jon's physical body. If not Val alone, then Morna as #1, with Val assisting. Italics are quotes from different books:

Mirri Maz Duur was a healer. She learned different techniques from different cultures, including Westeros' maesters. She used sacred things, like smoke and songs. But nothing suggests they were that much efficient. She learned Blood Magic too. But you don't really want it.

The only outstanding healers we know are the Elder Brother, Qyburn (for what he did with Jaime's arm) and Moqorro (but again Blood Magic, not something you want). BR, the Ghost of High Heart, probably Mother Mole, all have some powers. But nothing suggests they could heal, still less resurrect someone. Healing and divination are different things. If you have one, it is not evidence you have the other.

But I fully agree Val must have some magic, she is a priestess or something, of the Old Gods. IMO she will be there, more help Jon establish contact with the Old Gods, than to heal him.

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Can't say I'm enthustiastic about Val. Maybe it's because Jon has a hard-on for her and views her through pink goggles, but she comes across as a way too perfect princess. Traditionally beautiful, but can defend herself physically, tough, brave, intelligent, wise, refined, blah blah blah... I'd take Ygritte over her any day, since she actually comes across as a realistic girl that a wildling society could produce. Brave and tough, but also somewhat ignorant, sometimes cruel, and always uncouth and it's apparent that the extreme conditions she lives in take a toll on her (hence she's skinny and untidy). Val just lacks this. She's a beautiful, but down-to-earth lady from the wilderness. lol

OTOH I believe we are supposed to be disturbed by her comments re: Shireen (Jon certainly is), so perhaps Perfect Valkyrie won't prove so perfect in the end (I believe it is possible she will attempt to kill Shireen or something like that).

Either way, I don't think she is very important. Either she will turn into a morally dark grey character Jon will lose interest in or she will be a love interest soon to be fridged. The third option is that she's simply the "path not taken" and a face for wildlings that pops up to tell us how they feel and that will be her entire role. Though I think the former two possibilities are more likely.

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27 minutes ago, GhostNymeria said:

No, there were threads about them here long before the outline leaked.

I just looked at some threads and again there is 0 actual book foreshadowing. Just people trying to rationalize Jon's actions and thoughts around their idea of his forbidden love to Arya even though all of them can just be considered Jon loving his family, more so the ones who always treated him kindly, "he broke his vows for her" Oh wait he was going to break his vows to fight with Robb too. The only Stark kid who ever truly treated Jon like a bastard was Sansa. Arya's always going to be Jon's LITTLE sister and I mean little like way too young for Jon to even be considering it. How can you go from "Mussing her hair and calling her little sister" to consummating the marriage... 

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1 hour ago, lojzelote said:

Can't say I'm enthustiastic about Val. Maybe it's because Jon has a hard-on for her and views her through pink goggles, but she comes across as a way too perfect princess. Traditionally beautiful, but can defend herself physically, tough, brave, intelligent, wise, refined, blah blah blah... I'd take Ygritte over her any day, since she actually comes across as a realistic girl that a wildling society could produce. Brave and tough, but also somewhat ignorant, sometimes cruel, and always uncouth and it's apparent that the extreme conditions she lives in take a toll on her (hence she's skinny and untidy). Val just lacks this. She's a beautiful, but down-to-earth lady from the wilderness. lol

OTOH I believe we are supposed to be disturbed by her comments re: Shireen (Jon certainly is), so perhaps Perfect Valkyrie won't prove so perfect in the end (I believe it is possible she will attempt to kill Shireen or something like that).

Either way, I don't think she is very important. Either she will turn into a morally dark grey character Jon will lose interest in or she will be a love interest soon to be fridged. The third option is that she's simply the "path not taken" and a face for wildlings that pops up to tell us how they feel and that will be her entire role. Though I think the former two possibilities are more likely.

I'm not at all disturbed by her remarks about Shireen, I think Val is 100% right to be disgusted by greyscale. Maybe the free folk have good reason to fear this disease we are not yet fully aware of. I see nothing dark about her.

“We free folk know things you kneelers have forgotten."

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