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Val is Jon’s true Queen. Part trois.


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9 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Yes. This could be a driving force of why the Others are reappearing. The southron ways of turning away from magic has spread too far across Westeros. The maesters and septons are more corrupt than any of the old ways.  

 

Yes, the maesters have turned away from magic, Maester *****? of Winterfell and Osha debated that in front of Bran.  Maester Aemon of the Wall is not one that I would find to be corrupt.  However, the maesters overall do have an anti magic stance, and many of them are corrupt, which as you say, has spread and has already made it difficult to picture the threat from the Others.   Just gotta stand up for the two great maesters, who influenced the Stark kids.   :)

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4 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Yes. This could be a driving force of why the Others are reappearing. The southron ways of turning away from magic has spread too far across Westeros. The maesters and septons are more corrupt than any of the old ways.  

Very crooked & constantly feeding the reader information which is later disproved or outright bullshit. Interesting counterintuitive thought on the Others, most people tend to think blood magic south of the wall and in Essos would prompt their reappearance, maybe it's the other way around as you're suggesting..

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Just now, OuttaOldtown said:

Very crooked & constantly feeding the reader information which is later disproved or outright bullshit. Interesting counterintuitive thought on the Others, most people tend to think blood magic south of the wall and in Essos would prompt their reappearance, maybe it's the other way around as you're suggesting..

I agree, the idea has merit. And a different sort of magic, other than Mel's I mean, might really be needed at the Wall right about now, and Val is one of the people who just might be able to help.

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28 minutes ago, LongRider said:

 

Yes, the maesters have turned away from magic, Maester *****? of Winterfell and Osha debated that in front of Bran.  Maester Aemon of the Wall is not one that I would find to be corrupt.  However, the maesters overall do have an anti magic stance, and many of them are corrupt, which as you say, has spread and has already made it difficult to picture the threat from the Others.   Just gotta stand up for the two great maesters, who influenced the Stark kids.   :)

There's always a good one... Just like there's always a bear! ;)

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30 minutes ago, LongRider said:

 

Yes, the maesters have turned away from magic, Maester *****? of Winterfell and Osha debated that in front of Bran.  Maester Aemon of the Wall is not one that I would find to be corrupt.  However, the maesters overall do have an anti magic stance, and many of them are corrupt, which as you say, has spread and has already made it difficult to picture the threat from the Others.   Just gotta stand up for the two great maesters, who influenced the Stark kids.   :)

With you on that, Aemon is definitely another Maester who wasn't  dismissive of magic & I never got the sense Luwin was corrupt. The grey sheep fear what they do not know, we get a clear insight into this based on what Leo says in the AFfC prologue and Marwyn in the final chapter. 

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13 minutes ago, OuttaOldtown said:

With you on that, Aemon is definitely another Maester who wasn't  dismissive of magic & I never got the sense Luwin was corrupt. The grey sheep fear what they do not know, we get a clear insight into this based on what Leo says in the AFfC prologue and Marwyn in the final chapter. 

It's the oddballs of the story we should be listening to. The main controlling "authority" on certain matters don't actually know anything. 

I just want to add Old Nan to the list of who to trust. The tales she told are very important to the series. We should listen to her. 

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1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

It's the oddballs of the story we should be listening to. The main controlling "authority" on certain matters don't actually know anything. 

I just want to add Old Nan to the list of who to trust. The tales she told are very important to the series. We should listen to her. 

Couldn't agree more..

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3 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

It's the oddballs of the story we should be listening to. The main controlling "authority" on certain matters don't actually know anything. 

I just want to add Old Nan to the list of who to trust. The tales she told are very important to the series. We should listen to her. 

Thinking about this and about your suggestion that turning away from magic has consequences, many of Nan's stories do have magic, old magic in them.  Old magic which might not be a good thing to forget.

Scroll down to see links to some of her stories.

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On 7/15/2016 at 8:46 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

I know this thread was intended for gathering information about Val and Jon together. I just felt the need to add a little more information to your long list of glorious clues. Some will know many, but not all will know each.

<snip>

Thanks for the witch search.. Back when I wrote my Val thread, I didn't have access to search (except by page turning) ..as more came to my attention over the years (reading and discussing), I didn't always go back to update.. so I'm really glad that you brought up the MMD quotes again, because I want to add a "wisewoman" / "wise woman" list. I'll take them in order. Going back to Mance and his cloak...

1. “One day on a ranging we brought down a fine big elk. We were skinning it when the smell of blood drew a shadowcat out of its lair. I drove it off, but not before it shredded my cloak to ribbons. Do you see? Here, here, and here?” He chuckled. “It shredded my arm and back as well, and I bled worse than the elk. My brothers feared I might die before they got me back to Maester Mullin at the Shadow Tower, so they carried me to a wildling village where we knew an old wisewoman did some healing. She was dead, as it happened, but her daughter saw to me. Cleaned my wounds, sewed me up, and fed me porridge and potions until I was strong enough to ride again. And she sewed up the rents in my cloak as well, with some scarlet silk from Asshai that her grandmother had pulled from the wreck of a cog washed up on the Frozen Shore. It was the greatest treasure she had, and her gift to me.” ...ASoS, Jon I

This is the first time "wise" and "woman" are used together or as one word. She only did "some" healing, so it wasn't only healing that made her a wisewoman. Her daughter may have been a wisewoman in her own right, or on her way to becoming one, but she knew enough healing to save Mance. (I also want to point out that in mythology and literature, spinning and sewing are often part of magic spells worked by women.) Having read right past the MMD quote many times, I always used to argue that the red silk was indeed salvaged - because the alternate view being put forth at the time asserted that Val and Dalla were foreigners from Asshai (and maybe secret R'hllorists, too) and that seemed patently wrong, to me. However, later - taking MMD into account, it's possible that the grandmother may have traveled to Asshai, like MMD.

It's still very odd that the healer gave Mance a gift of her greatest treasure, instead of Mance giving her something in return for her services. Unless, of course, she already had some prophetic sense of what Mance would become.

2. Mance gave her a fond smile. "It's a wise woman I've found. A true queen." ... ASoS, Jon X

I've already referred to this one in this thread, and it immediately follows the wisdom Dalla gave Jon about "sorcery" being a sword without a hilt... The next example seems only to relate to Cersei's storyline, except if we take note of a couple of key words...

3. Maggy the Frog seemed to float before her eyes, wrinkled and terrible and wise. All old women look alike, she tried to tell herself, that's all it is. In truth, the bent-back sorceress had looked nothing like the Queen of Thorns, yet somehow the sight of Lady Olenna's nasty little smile was enough to put her back in Maggy's tent again. ... AFfC, Cersei III

Maggy is "wise" and a "sorceress", and we know that what upsets Cersei so much is Maggy's gift of prophecy.

4. A small, malicious, treacherous man, as stupid as he is cruel. Jon did not believe for a moment that he would keep faith. He wondered what Val was feeling as she watched him kneel, forgiven.
Lesser leaders followed. Two clan chiefs of the Hornfoot men, whose feet were black and hard. An old wisewoman revered by the peoples of the Milkwater. A scrawny dark-eyed boy of two-and-ten, the son of Alfyn Crowkiller. Halleck, brother to Harma Dogshead, with her pigs. Each took a knee before the king.
...
ADWD , Jon III

GRRM mentions Val in close proximity to "wisewoman", putting them in our minds at the same time. He tells us the old woman was revered by the peoples of the Milkwater. "Reverence" is not what one usually feels for a doctor, repected and trusted though they may be. Reverence is usually reserved for a prophet or spiritual / religious leader.... next we move on to Jon with Mel...

5. She (Mel) has power. The thought came unbidden, seizing him with iron teeth, but this was not a woman he cared to be indebted to, not even for his little sister. "Dalla told me something once. Val's sister, Mance Rayder's wife. She said that sorcery was a sword without a hilt. There is no safe way to grasp it."
"A wise woman." Melisandre rose, her red robes stirring in the wind. "A sword without a hilt is still a sword, though, and a sword is a fine thing to have when foes are all about.
 ...ADWD, Jon VI

George is being tricksy..;) He puts Mel, Dalla and Val along with "sorcery" all in one paragraph. I think we'd be foolish to ignore that, by this point. ... and then, Mel goes on to identify Dalla as a "wise woman" , though we don't know whether or not she understands or intends the implication. .. Last, but not least,we come to this...

6. "My lady wife mislikes travel. Lannisport is her place."
"It is a wise woman who knows her place."
He did not like the sound of that. "Say what you mean."
... ADWD, Epilogue, Kevan and Cersei

So, though superficially, it appears to be unrelated, that's where George leaves the question of Val (and Jon and Val) at the end of ADWD.. Considering that he's about to kill Kevan off, it's very doubtful that wherever Dorna (who has never appeared) feels is her place will affect the story at all. Certainly, it relates to where / what Cersei feels is her place, and we know that is Queen. The only two previous uses of "a wise woman"  (I've checked) including D&E, TWoIaF and the rest to be found on  https://asearchoficeandfire.com/     , are the ones I've quoted here. Both referred to Dalla. Here,Cersei uses Mance's turn of phrase - the only other place it's used, that I can find.

Val seems to think / know her place is with Jon, even as his queen , if he is to become a king.

"Say what you mean."  !!?!! :rolleyes: (George, George, George....)

I think our rascally author has been slyly saying what he means since ASoS, if we're paying close attention.

 

On 7/16/2016 at 5:02 PM, OuttaOldtown said:

When we're first introduced to Shireen in ACoK she comes to see Cressen and tells him that she had a bad dreams about dragons coming to eat her. He then reveals that she's been plagued with nightmares as long as he can remember. It's amazing to me this hardly ever gets brought up. I think there's good reason to be concerned about Shireen's future, sorry if I'm not asking who I think she'll marry at the end of the series  and believing she'll be fully healed like a good optimist..

Greyscale is connected to Garin's curse, which was called down upon the Valyrians.(Dragon Lords) I don't think the resurgence of magic in the world, especially since the birth of Dany's dragons bodes well for Shireen. And I still think Mel and Selyse are much more an immediate threat to her than Val.

 

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On 7/15/2016 at 5:28 PM, Lord Varys said:

I'm not saying that this is the case but if there is a Marc Antony to Jon's Caesar it will be Melisandre. She is going to avenge his death and/or bring his murderers down.

Yeah, that's a pretty intuitive argument.  Just not sure an Antony will be needed, at least in that vein.

On 7/15/2016 at 5:28 PM, Lord Varys said:

Well, magic is supposed to become more and more important in the latter half of the series. Glamors are among the magics we know best as of yet.

Do we really?  I suppose comparatively we know a lot about it, but I'd like to know more - particularly its similarities and differences to the procedure of the FM.  Anyway, point taken, but I obviously still think glamors are cheesy.

On 7/15/2016 at 5:28 PM, Lord Varys said:

Have you forgotten Mel asking Davos whether he would want to make shadow assassins with her? It seems that no special blood is required (unless it turns out that Davos is, in fact, a bastard Aerys fathered on some Flea Bottom wench in his glory days). No idea who would step in for Davos at the Wall. Ser Axell maybe, or even young Devan. Wildling men and Selyse's knights could work, too.

Well, more that I'm assuming if she goes off the supernatural pill it'd likely only be with Jon in terms of who's at the wall.  But I suppose you're right - there are certainly a multitude of donors available.  Maybe she could make a shadow-Tormund's member to slay them all!  Sorry...in all seriousness, I would think if Mel is going to make a display of her magical prowess in the future, it will be in a new fashion, not as a rehash of prior skills.

On 7/15/2016 at 5:28 PM, Lord Varys said:

And we should not discard those shadows easily. If Mel is right about the Wall those might be more than those fleeting shadows she used as assassins. Perhaps they could stick around for a longer period of time doing a lot of stuff.

Although this is an interesting notion..

On 7/15/2016 at 5:47 PM, bemused said:

Flint and Norrey are still there, and.. Each had brought a tail of fighting men—five for Old Flint, twelve for The Norrey, all clad in ragged skins and studded leathers, fearsome as the face of winter.

They were at the wedding when the horn sounded announcing Val and Tormund's arrival, and at Jon's meeting atop the wall after returning from negotiating with Tormund.

Yeah I knew they were there for the meeting atop the Wall - which was the chapter after Alys' wedding - I just always assumed they went home shortly thereafter.  Of course, this is based on the assumption that Alys herself left to reclaim Karhold, which at least with a quick search I can't seem to confirm.  I feel like I must be misremembering, or forgetting, something. 

IRT Flint and Norrey, I guess it makes sense they'd stick around considering the weather and the fact they're, well, old.  OTOH, that may be all the more reason to get your house's affairs in order in haste.  Plus, they didn't seem too thrilled with Jon and the situation with the wildings at the aforementioned meeting.

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8 hours ago, bemused said:

Thanks for the witch search.. Back when I wrote my Val thread, I didn't have access to search (except by page turning) ..as more came to my attention over the years (reading and discussing), I didn't always go back to update.. so I'm really glad that you brought up the MMD quotes again, because I want to add a "wisewoman" / "wise woman" list. I'll take them in order. Going back to Mance and his cloak...

1. “One day on a ranging we brought down a fine big elk. We were skinning it when the smell of blood drew a shadowcat out of its lair. I drove it off, but not before it shredded my cloak to ribbons. Do you see? Here, here, and here?” He chuckled. “It shredded my arm and back as well, and I bled worse than the elk. My brothers feared I might die before they got me back to Maester Mullin at the Shadow Tower, so they carried me to a wildling village where we knew an old wisewoman did some healing. She was dead, as it happened, but her daughter saw to me. Cleaned my wounds, sewed me up, and fed me porridge and potions until I was strong enough to ride again. And she sewed up the rents in my cloak as well, with some scarlet silk from Asshai that her grandmother had pulled from the wreck of a cog washed up on the Frozen Shore. It was the greatest treasure she had, and her gift to me.” ...ASoS, Jon I

This is the first time "wise" and "woman" are used together or as one word. She only did "some" healing, so it wasn't only healing that made her a wisewoman. Her daughter may have been a wisewoman in her own right, or on her way to becoming one, but she knew enough healing to save Mance. (I also want to point out that in mythology and literature, spinning and sewing are often part of magic spells worked by women.) Having read right past the MMD quote many times, I always used to argue that the red silk was indeed salvaged - because the alternate view being put forth at the time asserted that Val and Dalla were foreigners from Asshai (and maybe secret R'hllorists, too) and that seemed patently wrong, to me. However, later - taking MMD into account, it's possible that the grandmother may have traveled to Asshai, like MMD.

It's still very odd that the healer gave Mance a gift of her greatest treasure, instead of Mance giving her something in return for her services. Unless, of course, she already had some prophetic sense of what Mance would become.

2. Mance gave her a fond smile. "It's a wise woman I've found. A true queen." ... ASoS, Jon X

I've already referred to this one in this thread, and it immediately follows the wisdom Dalla gave Jon about "sorcery" being a sword without a hilt... The next example seems only to relate to Cersei's storyline, except if we take note of a couple of key words...

3. Maggy the Frog seemed to float before her eyes, wrinkled and terrible and wise. All old women look alike, she tried to tell herself, that's all it is. In truth, the bent-back sorceress had looked nothing like the Queen of Thorns, yet somehow the sight of Lady Olenna's nasty little smile was enough to put her back in Maggy's tent again. ... AFfC, Cersei III

Maggy is "wise" and a "sorceress", and we know that what upsets Cersei so much is Maggy's gift of prophecy.

4. A small, malicious, treacherous man, as stupid as he is cruel. Jon did not believe for a moment that he would keep faith. He wondered what Val was feeling as she watched him kneel, forgiven.
Lesser leaders followed. Two clan chiefs of the Hornfoot men, whose feet were black and hard. An old wisewoman revered by the peoples of the Milkwater. A scrawny dark-eyed boy of two-and-ten, the son of Alfyn Crowkiller. Halleck, brother to Harma Dogshead, with her pigs. Each took a knee before the king.
...
ADWD , Jon III

GRRM mentions Val in close proximity to "wisewoman", putting them in our minds at the same time. He tells us the old woman was revered by the peoples of the Milkwater. "Reverence" is not what one usually feels for a doctor, repected and trusted though they may be. Reverence is usually reserved for a prophet or spiritual / religious leader.... next we move on to Jon with Mel...

5. She (Mel) has power. The thought came unbidden, seizing him with iron teeth, but this was not a woman he cared to be indebted to, not even for his little sister. "Dalla told me something once. Val's sister, Mance Rayder's wife. She said that sorcery was a sword without a hilt. There is no safe way to grasp it."
"A wise woman." Melisandre rose, her red robes stirring in the wind. "A sword without a hilt is still a sword, though, and a sword is a fine thing to have when foes are all about.
 ...ADWD, Jon VI

George is being tricksy..;) He puts Mel, Dalla and Val along with "sorcery" all in one paragraph. I think we'd be foolish to ignore that, by this point. ... and then, Mel goes on to identify Dalla as a "wise woman" , though we don't know whether or not she understands or intends the implication. .. Last, but not least,we come to this...

6. "My lady wife mislikes travel. Lannisport is her place."
"It is a wise woman who knows her place."
He did not like the sound of that. "Say what you mean."
... ADWD, Epilogue, Kevan and Cersei

So, though superficially, it appears to be unrelated, that's where George leaves the question of Val (and Jon and Val) at the end of ADWD.. Considering that he's about to kill Kevan off, it's very doubtful that wherever Dorna (who has never appeared) feels is her place will affect the story at all. Certainly, it relates to where / what Cersei feels is her place, and we know that is Queen. The only two previous uses of "a wise woman"  (I've checked) including D&E, TWoIaF and the rest to be found on  https://asearchoficeandfire.com/     , are the ones I've quoted here. Both referred to Dalla. Here,Cersei uses Mance's turn of phrase - the only other place it's used, that I can find.

Val seems to think / know her place is with Jon, even as his queen , if he is to become a king.

"Say what you mean."  !!?!! :rolleyes: (George, George, George....)

I think our rascally author has been slyly saying what he means since ASoS, if we're paying close attention.

 

Greyscale is connected to Garin's curse, which was called down upon the Valyrians.(Dragon Lords) I don't think the resurgence of magic in the world, especially since the birth of Dany's dragons bodes well for Shireen. And I still think Mel and Selyse are much more an immediate threat to her than Val.

 

Great compilation of legit clues, and I agree about Mel and Selyse being the greater threat. Dragons are a representation of fire, my guess is 'eaten by a dragon' equals being consumed by flame..

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 7/10/2016 at 4:59 PM, Lord Varys said:

Take your time, I'm not going anywhere in the long run.

And Jon is? A guy she hasn't even slept with yet? For what purpose, exactly? Won't they have better things to do now that Bowen Marsh has taken over the Night's Watch?

The idea that anyone would actually intentionally want to resurrect Jon Snow is pretty insane. Nobody is madly in love with him (like Dany was with Drogo) nor is there any indication that anybody at the Wall thinks he is crucially important for the coming battle. If his true heritage had been revealed and he been proclaimed the savior then things might be somewhat different. But even then the rational/obvious way to continue would be 'You know what, perhaps that vision I had about him fighting against was wrong/only a potential future.'

I mean, that's what Mel would have to believe about Stannis in any case if he ever dies, right?

This is a long thread so I haven't read everything yet, but There is an incredibly good reason why thousands would want Jon to be alive. Jon is the one that let the wildlings cross the wall. He was that Tormund made a deal with. He was the one that they trusted (if they trusted anyone). Bowen Marsh would sooner see them all dead. So I'd say every single wildling would actuallly intentionally want to resurrect Jon. Because at least with Jon as LC, they know they will be protected. Do you honestly believe that Val, Melisandre, or anyone else would rather have Marsh as LC? Some may not think he's crucially important for the coming battle (mainly because he's one man), but he is their chosen leader, so I'd say most of the NW would rather have him lead the battle than anyone else. 

Now I'm not saying I agree that Val loves Jon, or Jon loves Val, or that they will be married or any of that. But, I believe it is clear Val sees Jon as probably her only Ally that isn't a wildling. After all, he's the one that literally puts her under his protection. He protected Mance's son. He is going out of his way to protect the wildlings. So at the very least Val has a vested interest in the welfare of Jon Snow.

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@CaliWolf

That isn't very convincing. The only 'resurrected people' the wildlings know as far as we know are the wights. And they don't exactly like them. I agree that the wildlings would prefer Jon Snow as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch to Bowen Marsh. But part of this problem can be solved rather easily by actually killing Bowen Marsh.

Tormund and his people no longer need Jon Snow or the Night's Watch, actually. They are now south of the Wall and can do whatever the hell they like and they have the upper hand. There are a few hundred of black brothers left but Tormund brought 4,000 wildlings with him. There is a good chance that they might want to avenge Jon Snow but no reason to believe they would want to resurrect him. Because, you know, that kind of thing isn't exactly done on a routine basis if some leader gets assassinated. Nobody tried to resurrect Raymun Redbeard, Jeor Mormont, Robert Baratheon, Aerys or Rhaegar Targaryen, or Eddard Stark.

And Val should be able to fend for herself now that other wildlings are there. I don't think she needs Jon Snow to protect her. She can do that herself, especially considering that she obviously gets along rather splendidly with Tormund.

The only reason I can see that Jon Snow returns from the dead is if Melisandre's kiss of fire (as part of his funeral ritual) accidentally resurrects his body. Even if people realizes that his spirit survived in Ghost should they not decide they have to resurrect him. After all, the skinchanger Borroq would tell them that such a second life is normal for a skinchanger.

If George truly gave a lot of characters stupid motivations to actually resurrect Jon Snow the story would suffer a lot.

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As I see that this thread involves a debate on the status of women / misogyny in wildling society, let me throw in my two cents.

If we compare wildling culture north of the Wall and the culture of the Seven Kingdoms south of the Wall, I don't think wildling women necessarily come out as being in a worse position than their southern counterparts with regard to their agency and independence (the difference in general living standards might be a different thing). 

Beyond the Wall, stealing women is more or less the equivalent of the southern concept of marriage. We see that consensual sexual relationships exist without or prior to stealing (as the case of Ygritte's first love illustrates) and we also see that there is rape without stealing (as per Varamyr, who forced women to sleep with him through his magical powers but never intended to keep them or to regard them as his wives). The idea of stealing apparently involves the intention of a long-term relationship, sharing a household (such as they have), acknowledging children born of the relationship. We also find out that there are some taboos, i.e., rules governing the choice of partners - exogamy is the expected norm. Can stolen women be abandoned by their men later? No doubt they can be, but it does not mean that is the norm or the accepted behaviour. No society is immune against rule-breakers or criminals. The taboo of marrying your kin can also be violated, as we see with Craster, but we also see that such a man isolates himself from all wildling societies and is considered to be an outcast.       

When a woman is stolen, both the woman and her family are expected to fight. It is reasonable to assume that this fight has different levels. If the woman and the family approve of the man (or if the stealing is prearranged between the girl and the boy), the fight is probably less intense than in a situation where the woman does not want to be stolen, where the family members have serious objections against the suitor or where the suitor still has to "prove himself" as a man worthy of the woman, meaning he is strong enough to protect her, to feed her and to father strong, healthy children on her. Far from being unrealistically romantic, in the harsh circumstances of the North, the ability to survive and to keep the woman alive is of paramount importance when considering a future husband. 

The "fake fight" - when the woman approves of the man - is supported  by Tormund's assertion to Jon about Ygritte:

" She’d hardly give you any fight at all, seems to me. The girl wants you in her, that’s plain enough to see.”

That need to put up a fight in any case may be paralleled by Tormund's negotiation with Jon in ADwD, where Tormund roars and calls Jon all sorts offensive names, even throws his drinking horn against him - and in the end, he accepts all Jon's terms, shakes his hand and has a totally amiable chat with him. All that shouting only serves to make sure the wildlings know that Tormund doesn't yield to Jon's terms easily. It is a nod to honour rather than a serious opposition (and Jon seems to understand it as such), not unlike a proud woman's fight even when she wants to be stolen.

As for the situation where there is an objection to the man, here are Jon's words:

“Amongst the free folk, when a man desires a woman, he steals her, and thus proves his strength, his cunning, and his courage. The suitor risks a savage beating if he is caught by the woman’s kin, and worse than that if she herself finds him unworthy.”

All that shows that the woman's opinion is quite important. 

Yet, does it mean that the final decision is always the woman's? 

I don't think so. It is possible that a girl likes the boy, but the family members don't and they beat him up so that he flees. It is also possible that a woman doesn't have young / strong enough male family members to protect her and she is not strong enough to defend herself. However, common wisdom would probably say that in this case she should be happy to be chosen by a strong man, as she needs one to survive. Yet, it is possible that the woman doesn't like the man in question or that she likes another one and can't choose him. Such things will probably happen. Not everybody will be equally happy and fortunate. There is a reason why wildling women are encouraged to learn to fight, and although not all of them become spearwives, that is certainly an option for them.  

Ultimately, a woman's ability to choose for herself is probably determined by the strength of her clan and by her own ability to protect herself. That must be more or less parallel to her personal status in society as such.

Now let's see the situation south of the Wall.

Noble women aren't stolen but sold and bought. It is called marriage, but they are quite definitely the objects of trade between their fathers and future husbands, in worse cases between their liege lords and their future husbands. Noble girls are simply assets that their families use to buy land, alliance, influence, status. Officially, they have no say in their own future. Their only hope is a considerate father who is also in a position to choose a husband who meets both his and his daughter's expectations. Otherwise it is a question of pure luck. Some end up with loving and lovable husbands, like Ned. Others end up with someone like Robert or Walder Frey or worse. In extreme cases, a woman can even be as unfortunate as Lady Hornwood (with no protection against a greedy neighbour), who is forced to marry a criminal, and even if Ramsay's actions cause some outrage, no one debates the validity of the forced marriage. 

Women of the small folk may or may not have a say in their own marriage (they, too, have fathers, and they are also the property of their families because they don't have rights of their own). But they have practically no protection against lords, lordlings or any armed men. (Just think of Tysha.) Not even a physically strong husband or brother can protect them against soldiers or nobles. During times of peace and stability they may be better protected (if the lord of the land keeps law and order), in more difficult times, they may fall prey to anyone. (Arya witnesses that in the Riverlands.) 

Women south of the Wall are not encouraged to learn to protect themselves (Brienne is regarded as a freak) because such an ability would interfere with the rights of the men around them. Ultimately, it is the political and military strength of the woman's family that decides her status in society, and that determines whether she will be anyone's prey or just her husband's property. In neither case does she have the right to choose her own future. There will be women who are still able to stand up for themselves to a certain extent due to their social status and / or strength of character. Others will be totally at the mercy of the male society around them, and no one will find it strange or wrong. 

In conclusion, a woman's relative freedom depends on her social status in both societies, but social status depends on individual abilities, such as strength, cunning and the ability to defend yourself and probably on the actual size of the clan in wildling culture, while it depends on the family's wealth and influence as based on birth and inheritance in the feudal culture of the Seven Kingdoms. Neither culture is perfect. There will be more and less privileged women in both cultures. However, wildling culture at least acknowledges the individual right of a woman to accept or refuse a suitor provided she can stand up for this right. In feudal culture, it is a highborn woman's duty to marry in accordance with the family interest (she has the right to plead with her father, nothing more), while a woman of the smallfolk cannot hope to protect herself against noblemen or soldiers and can even be punished for a legal marriage if a lord chooses to do so. 

But most of the women on both sides of the Wall can probably be envied by most women who are unfortunate enough to experience the Dothraki way.  

 

 

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I also wanted to say that there are lots of great posts on this thread, which I absolutely enjoyed reading. Regarding the OP and the actual topic of the thread, I don't know if the following quote has been discussed (ADwD, when Tormund arrives in the middle of Alys Karstark's wedding feast):

One blast, thought Jon Snow. Rangers returning.

Then it came again. The sound seemed to fill the cellar. “Two blasts,” said Mully.

Black brothers, northmen, free folk, Thenns, queen’s men, all of them fell quiet, listening. Five heartbeats passed. Ten. Twenty. Then Owen the Oaf tittered, and Jon Snow could breathe again. “Two blasts,” he announced. “Wildlings.” Val.

Tormund Giantsbane had come at last.

The bolded lines are very powerful with a special atmosphere. I would like to quote Fire Eater from the old Jon Snow reread threads:

Quote

That has a romantic connotation to it when you look at it. The quiet tension and mentioning of heartbeats, and breathing again, similar to descriptions of an incoming kiss. I think Jon will breathe again, or come back from death when Val kisses him. Think "the last kiss" used to resurrect Beric and and Cat, only literally with Val thinking Jon is dead, and giving him one last kiss.

I have no idea what exactly will happen, but I agree that the heartbeats and the "breathing again" immediately followed by "Wildlings", a word Jon says, and Val, a word Jon thinks, evoke the image and the tension of a kiss as well as the notion of coming to life again, which may be interpreted literally or symbolically. 

 

Another thing, when we talk about Jon stealing Val, I think we can say that he has done it not once but three times already, twice reinforcing the effect of the original "stealing". At first, Jon "captures" Val in the battle of the Wall - in reality he protects her (with his sword) from harm - and takes her to his castle. (I know Castle Black is not Jon's property, I mean it in the sense of "his home".) There Stannis may regard her as his captive, but I don't think any wildling woman would regard that as stealing. Stannis may keep her locked up but they are definitely not "married" in any sense of the word. (How many times does it happen in myths and fairy tales that a warrior has to find a particular woman - usually some kind of princess - for his king, and even though it is the warrior's noble purpose to take the woman to the king, after all the hardships and dangers the warrior faces for her the woman will never regard the king as her true husband?) 

Next, Stannis leaves Castle Black and leaves Val in Jon Snow's care. (At this point Jon Snow is Lord Commander, thus he has the command of the castle.) Jon demonstrates that Stannis does not command him with regard to Val when he sends Val to find and bring Tormund (obviously against Stannis's orders). He also shows that he trusts Val to come back, further implying that Val somehow belongs to him. That is when Jon Snow is called a thief by the raven, while Val's description symbolically evokes the image of the Moonmaid. It is also the scene where Jarl is said to have been killed "by the Wall", and at this moment in the story, Jon and the Wall belong strongly together both in-world, because of Jon's Lord Commander status, and on a meta-level, because of various symbolic references in the novel.  

Finally, when Val returns, Jon gives her a new place to stay - not in the tower where Stannis kept her (the King's Tower) but in another tower, guarded by Jon's own men, which happens to be the tower where Jon Snow first slept after joining the Night's Watch.

"My own men guard Hardin’s Tower, not the queen’s. And Wun Wun sleeps in the entry hall.”

“A giant as protector? Even Dalla could not boast of that.”

Thus Jon Snow makes it clear whose captive Val is in reality. In her reply to him, Val compares herself to Dalla, which is quite telling in itself, and calls Wun Wun a protector, rather than a prison guard. Val also indirectly implies that she prefers Jon's protection to being the king's captive:

"I’ve had the top floor made ready for you, my lady. You will have more room than in the King’s Tower, though you may not be as comfortable. No one has ever called it Hardin’s Palace.”

“I would choose freedom over comfort every time.”

So Val will have "more room", i.e., more freedom, and she prefers it to being a prisoner in the relative luxury of the King's Tower.

Jon has stolen her in three stages: Firstly, he took her captive and at the same time protected her in a battle; secondly, he removed her from Stannis's power and tower; and thirdly, he placed her in his "own" tower, and had her guarded by his own men and by his own giant, at the same time giving her more freedom. In the course of these events, Val has risen from a prisoner of war and potential pawn to become a woman who rides by Jon's side and helps him with his fight, and she has gained a position where she and Jon's wolf look as though they belong together.

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On 8/5/2016 at 10:39 AM, Julia H. said:

I also wanted to say that there are lots of great posts on this thread, which I absolutely enjoyed reading. Regarding the OP and the actual topic of the thread, I don't know if the following quote has been discussed (ADwD, when Tormund arrives in the middle of Alys Karstark's wedding feast):

One blast, thought Jon Snow. Rangers returning.

Then it came again. The sound seemed to fill the cellar. “Two blasts,” said Mully.

Black brothers, northmen, free folk, Thenns, queen’s men, all of them fell quiet, listening. Five heartbeats passed. Ten. Twenty. Then Owen the Oaf tittered, and Jon Snow could breathe again. “Two blasts,” he announced. “Wildlings.” Val.

Tormund Giantsbane had come at last.

The bolded lines are very powerful with a special atmosphere. I would like to quote Fire Eater from the old Jon Snow reread threads:

I have no idea what exactly will happen, but I agree that the heartbeats and the "breathing again" immediately followed by "Wildlings", a word Jon says, and Val, a word Jon thinks, evoke the image and the tension of a kiss as well as the notion of coming to life again, which may be interpreted literally or symbolically. 

 

Another thing, when we talk about Jon stealing Val, I think we can say that he has done it not once but three times already, twice reinforcing the effect of the original "stealing". At first, Jon "captures" Val in the battle of the Wall - in reality he protects her (with his sword) from harm - and takes her to his castle. (I know Castle Black is not Jon's property, I mean it in the sense of "his home".) There Stannis may regard her as his captive, but I don't think any wildling woman would regard that as stealing. Stannis may keep her locked up but they are definitely not "married" in any sense of the word. (How many times does it happen in myths and fairy tales that a warrior has to find a particular woman - usually some kind of princess - for his king, and even though it is the warrior's noble purpose to take the woman to the king, after all the hardships and dangers the warrior faces for her the woman will never regard the king as her true husband?) 

Next, Stannis leaves Castle Black and leaves Val in Jon Snow's care. (At this point Jon Snow is Lord Commander, thus he has the command of the castle.) Jon demonstrates that Stannis does not command him with regard to Val when he sends Val to find and bring Tormund (obviously against Stannis's orders). He also shows that he trusts Val to come back, further implying that Val somehow belongs to him. That is when Jon Snow is called a thief by the raven, while Val's description symbolically evokes the image of the Moonmaid. It is also the scene where Jarl is said to have been killed "by the Wall", and at this moment in the story, Jon and the Wall belong strongly together both in-world, because of Jon's Lord Commander status, and on a meta-level, because of various symbolic references in the novel.  

Finally, when Val returns, Jon gives her a new place to stay - not in the tower where Stannis kept her (the King's Tower) but in another tower, guarded by Jon's own men, which happens to be the tower where Jon Snow first slept after joining the Night's Watch.

"My own men guard Hardin’s Tower, not the queen’s. And Wun Wun sleeps in the entry hall.”

“A giant as protector? Even Dalla could not boast of that.”

Thus Jon Snow makes it clear whose captive Val is in reality. In her reply to him, Val compares herself to Dalla, which is quite telling in itself, and calls Wun Wun a protector, rather than a prison guard. Val also indirectly implies that she prefers Jon's protection to being the king's captive:

"I’ve had the top floor made ready for you, my lady. You will have more room than in the King’s Tower, though you may not be as comfortable. No one has ever called it Hardin’s Palace.”

“I would choose freedom over comfort every time.”

So Val will have "more room", i.e., more freedom, and she prefers it to being a prisoner in the relative luxury of the King's Tower.

Jon has stolen her in three stages: Firstly, he took her captive and at the same time protected her in a battle; secondly, he removed her from Stannis's power and tower; and thirdly, he placed her in his "own" tower, and had her guarded by his own men and by his own giant, at the same time giving her more freedom. In the course of these events, Val has risen from a prisoner of war and potential pawn to become a woman who rides by Jon's side and helps him with his fight, and she has gained a position where she and Jon's wolf look as though they belong together.

This is beautiful and excellent. This is my favorite part because it is the quintessential example of an author showing you what is going on, as opposed to telling the reader (which is a huge literary no-no). The holding of the breath and then breathing after a count and thinking of Val??? Holy hells :wub::

One blast, thought Jon Snow. Rangers returning.

Then it came again. The sound seemed to fill the cellar. “Two blasts,” said Mully.

Black brothers, northmen, free folk, Thenns, queen’s men, all of them fell quiet, listening. Five heartbeats passed. Ten. Twenty. Then Owen the Oaf tittered, and Jon Snow could breathe again. “Two blasts,” he announced. “Wildlings.” Val.

Tormund Giantsbane had come at last.

The bolded lines are very powerful with a special atmosphere. I would like to quote Fire Eater from the old Jon Snow reread threads:

I have no idea what exactly will happen, but I agree that the heartbeats and the "breathing again" immediately followed by "Wildlings", a word Jon says, and Val, a word Jon thinks, evoke the image and the tension of a kiss as well as the notion of coming to life again, which may be interpreted literally or symbolically. 

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@Julia H. ...I had to rush out just as I was typing my post above.. But, yes! I love that great post of Fire Eater's. And I wanted to say that your comparison of the lot of women north and south of the wall is really excellent, and something a lot of people need to have pointed out to them, from time to time. ;)

@The Fattest Leech ... There's another example of being shown, a bit more spread out, that I love. Beginning with a bit of set up on ASoS... As he walked toward the armory, Jon chanced to look up and saw Val standing in her tower window. I’m sorry, he thought. I’m not the man to steal you out of there. ... OK, we know he is the man who will shortly steal her out of there... but it's Val in the window that I want to draw attention to.

Moving on to that rich-in-so-many-ways Samwell I chapter of AFfC, when he emerges from the book vault... “Where's your longbow, Sam?” asked Grenn...<snip>... “Ulmer was expecting you at the butts.” ..<snip>.. “I forgot.”
“You broke the heart of the wildling princess, Slayer,” said Pyp. Of late, Val had taken to watching them from the window of her chamber in the King’s Tower. “She was looking for you.”
“She was not! Don’t say that!”
..<snip>.. “Why not?” asked Pyp. “She wants to have your children. Maybe we should call you Sam the Seducer.... from here the narrative moves on to "The Great Lord Snow" and his duties, finishing with Grenn commenting about Jon ... “His duties don’t keep him from the yard. More days than not, he’s out there fighting someone.”
That was true, Sam had to admit.

We know that since before the election, Jon has spent a lot of time in the practice yard for one (good) reason or another, and Val is frequently in her window for one good reason or another ..but I doubt it's simply from boredom. (The chances are very good that she witnessed Jon's bout with Emmett.)

Remembering that these are young people with an abundance of hormones, I can't help feeling (good political reasons aside) that there's an element of each hoping to glimpse the other (and hoping to be noticed by the other) developing. (He just chanced to look up , she just chanced to be there.)

Since GRRM managed to work the word "seducer" into Pyp's banter, we should probably make the substitution, "Jon the seducer" .. or maybe Val is attempting to seduce Jon with her beauty (Sam tells us she's so pretty, he's reduced to stammering in her presence). I feel the electrical current of some good old mutual seduction in the air.

ETA: this is OT , but I don't remember if this is the thread where I mentioned I was working on something about Ser Shadrich.. If so, it's up and it's daunting in length.. but opinions or feedback would be very welcome... http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/143043-ser-shadrich-his-allies-and-adversaries-morgarth-byron-creighton-illifer/

 

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