Val is Jon’s true Queen. Part trois.

[Lord Varys]

12 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

It's quite simple really -

298 Jon is 14 at the start, turns 15 during

299 Jon is 15 at the start, turns 16 during

300 Jon is 16 at the start, has turned or will turn 17

If Jon isn't yet 16 in 300 AC, then that would mean he was born in the year 284. And that can't be right, ainit? ' cause that's the year Dany's born in 284 and George has said there's about 8-9 months difference in age between Jon and Dany.

 

That actually makes sense. Shutting up. However, George sucks for not including important events like the king's nameday celebration.

11 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

No, that is not how it works. Val is held at Castle Black. The wall and Castle Black are Jon's as he is the Lors Commander. If you want to get nit picky, Jon even releases Val to go get Tormund and Val willingly returns to Jon's tower.

You are getting confused. Jon Snow was just a random black brother when he 'stole' Val. He had no authority over anything and he was quickly relieved of his price by King Stannis. Stannis is later the guy in charge at the Wall and he leaves his property, Val, in the care of Jon Snow. But she isn't Jon's prisoner now. Jon is very aware that Stannis will have his head upon his return should Val not come back.

The idea that Val would see herself as the wife of some random crow doesn't make much sense.

Quote

As a wildling and a female, Val is deciding what is happening in her life, relationship-wise. This goes along with Val not being one dimensional or just a background character. She has her own... Agency (I hate that adjective).

I'd prefer it if that was the case but Val isn't a very flashed out character. We know more about Taena Merryweather than her.

Quote

Not all wildling clans act the same way. You sound like a typical "southerner" by claiming otherwise. Some clans, or men within the clans, are assholes, yes. But you would be hard pressed to not be able to apply the same judgments on the men south of the wall as well. Look who makes up most of the NW now a days. Look at how young women are not safe in he general of Westeros right now. 

We have no idea to what clan Val belongs to or whether she is foolish enough to project her customs on the kneelers. Ygritte was stupid enough to do that - if Val is smart and experienced she wouldn't be as stupid as that. She would not interpret/misconstrue some actions as being significant on a relationship level.

4 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Case in point Ygritte: Ygritte considers herself to be stolen by Jon, whether he agrees with that or not. Ygritte CHOOSES Jon. And there's the story about Ygritte already having had sex with a guy, who then decides to steal her (but she was already tired of him) and she and her family fight him truly off. I don't care what your opinion about it is, but the "stealing" is explained to be much subtler than a forced kidnapping in the books.

Ygritte had the hots for Jon. Jon never stole her. He just didn't kill her and allowed her to escape. I very much doubt everybody who doesn't kill a spearwife when he has the chance is now married to her.

4 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

No, Stannis has not stolen Val from Jon, because Stannis didn't kill Jon, and Val didn't want to be stolen by Stannis. Jon's attitude about how he captured Val gives Val a total out of it. Her doing what he wants - kneeling for Selyse - is one of those indications that Val subdues herself to Jon's will, and considers herself stolen by him, whether Jon acknowledges it or not, just as Ygritte considered herself stolen by Jon. 

Well, but Stannis physcally took Val prisoner. Isn't that part of stealing, too? Or can be part of stealing when you go raiding and get yourself some kneeler women to rape? Last I looked wildlings were doing that.

Do you know she wouldn't do the same thing for him if forced if the choice was between life and death?

I'm not in disagreement about Val hitting on Jon. I recognize flirting when I see it. I just don't think than any of that is based on the whole stealing thing. I think Val is using Jon to try to get what she wants - whatever that is. And she might genuinely want to help him to and see him as the last hope of her people. But we don't need that stealing thing for that.

[The Fattest Leech]

@Lord Varys I'm gonna need some book sources, or even George sources, for many of your counter arguments. Speculating is fine, but you have to back it up with something as proof as other posters here have done over and over. These same arguments are now going in circles, just with new posters to the thread. 

[sweetsunray]

14 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Ygritte had the hots for Jon. Jon never stole her. He just didn't kill her and allowed her to escape. I very much doubt everybody who doesn't kill a spearwife when he has the chance is now married to her.

Jon "captured" her, by disarming her and holding a dagger to her throat. AND Ygritte had the hots for Jon.

So, Jon "captured" her + Ygritte has the hots for him + she's free => Ygritte says he "stole" her. It's the whole combo that makes women claim they've been "stolen" and thus that guy's wife.

Are you deliberately being obtuse? I'm not talking what some wildling man thinks he did,but what the wildling woman considers herself to be. Once you accept that wildling women are the authority in the books on how and when they are "stolen" and not you, then all of your questions about Stannis are answered.

Jon "captured" Val + Val has the hots for him + Jon killed Jarl => Val considers herself "stolen" and his wife.

Stannis "imprisons" Val into a tower + Val doesn't have the hots for Stannis + Stannos does not kill Jon => Val does not consider herself "stolen" by Stannis

[DMC]

45 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And who knows, perhaps everybody surrounding Jon when he was killed was either a member of Bowen's cabal or willing to look the other way?

Hm, the scene seemed pretty chaotic.  And Leathers was there, right?  Doesn't seem like the type to look the other way, and Marsh and him would be very strange bedfellows. 

53 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But Marsh and his cronies might have been afraid of the Red Woman, only willing to strike at Jon when Melisandre wasn't there.

I agree they'd be afraid of her.  That's why I would assume their plan would ensure she's not there, but also that they'd be reticent to approach her in any way IRT to convincing/tricking her to avoid Jon.  After all, she's a witch with mysterious powers.  Don't wanna tip her off.

[sweetsunray]

23 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That actually makes sense. Shutting up. However, George sucks for not including important events like the king's nameday celebration.

Yes, Tommen seems a confusing case.

Cat claims he's 7 in 298 when the news arrives of Jon Arryn's death.

He's said to be 8 at Joffrey's nameday Tourney in 299 (in Sansa's POV).

He's said to be 8 when Joffrey dies the first day of 300 and Tommen becomes king (Kevan says this).

So, Tommen's nameday falls before Joffrey's one in the new year. He's a January birthday boy.

So, that would make it

298: Tommen 6 -> 7 in Jan (fits the aGoT info)

299: Tommen 7-> 8 in Jan (fits the aCoK info... it wasn't in aGoT that Tommen is claimed to be 8, but in Sansa's chapter of Joffrey's nameday)

300: Tommen 8-> 9 in Jan

However, Tommen is made king shortly before his nameday.

It's in character really for Cersei not to care about Tommen's nameday (she doesn't care about Tommen), and we wouldn't have seen celebrations about his nameday while Joffrey's alive. Then there's his wedding to Marg and Tywin's funeral. And Cersei has Marg and herself locked up by the HS not long after.

[Lord Rahvin]

Always liked Val for Jon, and thought Jon should have taken the offer of Lord of WF, which included the "wildling princess" as his Lady - it really was a good offer!

As to why Val would NOT be a good suitor for Jon makes absolutely no sense to me...Jon is still considered a bastard, and Val a bullshit princess. Seems like a perfect match to me. 

[The Fattest Leech]

1 minute ago, Lord Rahvin said:

Always liked Val for Jon, and thought Jon should have taken the offer of Lord of WF, which included the "wildling princess" as his Lady - it really was a good offer!

As to why Val would NOT be a good suitor for Jon makes absolutely no sense to me...Jon is still considered a bastard, and Val a bullshit princess. Seems like a perfect match to me. 

Haha. You are correct. In the end the two "even" each other out.  

I'm ok with Jon not taking Winterfell as of yet. I think he still had some other big business to attend to first and leaving Winterfell open means it could go to one of his Stark siblings first while Jon resides or rules as KitN somewhere else. For some reason I always think Jon will end up in Queencrowne. I should look more into why I feel like that. Hmmm 

[Lord Rahvin]

Queencrowne, huh? Yeah I'm gonna look into that one too.

[The Fattest Leech]

7 minutes ago, Lord Rahvin said:

Queencrowne, huh? Yeah I'm gonna look into that one too.

I really don't know why. There was some action there in a Jon chapter and a Bran chapter, but the history and architecture of it feels symbolic  somehow. 

Plus the fact that it has a little inn and village right there means it could be a decent spot to rebuild and help some wildlings get established. 

[Quyen Thuy Tran]

Oh well she won't be his end game lol

[The Fattest Leech]

5 minutes ago, Quyen Thuy Tran said:

Oh well she won't be his end game lol

Care to back that up in any way other than posting a pointless, juvenile prank? 

[bemused]

 Gods, this will be long... ssr, I added numbers for my benefit..

12 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

1. Well, I wouldn't go so far to say there weren't Stark wargs. I would say that the last 200 years, the Stark wargs that may have been born simply didn't have a direwolf to manifest it strongly and convincingly.  2. MIght be some Starks warged enough with their horse, but that's a rather docile form of warging and wouldn't raise eyebrows and the Stark warg themselves might not have though tmuch of it. Same thing with Arya and her cats.

1. I do go a bit farther. I don't doubt that some Starks may have been born with the capacity to become a warg/ skinchanger, but I have a very strong feeling that for a Stark, it takes exposure to a direwolf to act as a catalyst and awaken the ability. I'm betting Starks are a special case. We've yet to hear of anyone but a Stark being bonded with a direwolf. (Not even the Wolf King) Varamyr, in his arrogance, thought he could take Ghost .. I don't believe it. ... It may even have been much longer than 200 yrs, I'm just basing that figure on how long Ned said it had been since a direwolf had been seen south of the wall.

2. I can't find it in the myriad of interviews I've read or heard, but I know there was one where GRRM said that all of the Stark kids (incl.Jon) were wargs , but none among Ned and his siblings were. I was just a baby poster at the time, and I had no idea that I should write it down for future reference. If anyone reading this knows of it, please share.

But even without that hard evidence, according to Haggon, dogs are the easiest animal to form a bond with, and even if Varamyr bonded unusually young, it's amazing that neither Jon nor Robb had bonded with a dog in their14 yrs., with all the hunting that they must have done... or any of the other children, for that matter, considering the way young kids gravitate to puppies. 

16 hours ago, DigUpHerBones said:

eye color is not subjective like the size of someone's hips, IMO.

GRRM made it a point to tell us 

But then...

I get that grey and blue could be considered close? but these excerpts were both from Dance, only 8 Jon chapters apart.

Here's another changing eye colour example from AFfC, The Drowned Man...

"I am Gylbert Farwynd, Lord of the Lonely Light," the lord told the kingsmoot.

Aeron knew some Farwynds, a queer folk who held lands on the westernmost shores of Great Wyk and the scattered isles beyond, rocks so small that most could support but a single household. Of those, the Lonely Light was the most distant, eight days' sail to the northwest amongst rookeries of seals and sea lions and the boundless grey oceans. The Farwynds there were even queerer than the rest. Some said they were skinchangers, unholy creatures who could take on the forms of sea lions, walruses, even spotted whales, the wolves of the wild sea. 

Lord Gylbert began to speak. He told of a wondrous land beyond the Sunset Sea, a land without winter or want, where death had no dominion. "Make me your king, and I shall lead you there," he cried. "We will build ten thousand ships as Nymeria once did and take sail with all our people to the land beyond the sunset. There every man shall be a king and every wife a queen."

His eyes, Aeron saw, were now grey, now blue, as changeable as the seas. Mad eyes, he thought, fool's eyes. The vision he spoke of was doubtless a snare set by the Storm God to lure the ironborn to destruction. 

Every man a king, every wife a queen sounds like a Free Folk type of thought.. Changeable eyes, talk of visions.. Aeron calls him "mad' and "fool" (we know of a mad fool who we think is prophetic ) ... I don't know if any of this relates to Val, except to suggest that changeable eyes are a very old trait, maybe connected to skinchanging and/or visions..

But you know. even if the chapters in question appear close together, in the same book... they can still have been written years apart.

13 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I was actually referring to what you said when I added the Morna comment. Which way as in warrior or witch. It is others who may be reading it wrong. Choices are a minor theme throughout the story when it comes to life or death. LSH to Brienne, Arya to her lives taken, even the "gods" to the Hound, and Chiswyck to Hot Pie in a very plain chose life or death question.

I guess sometimes my jokes don't always come through from one computer screen to another. My fault.

Ha,ha,ha.... oh, no, no... I hadn't even seen your post yet, when I typed that. I wasn't referring to your comment... I can see you were joking. We're cool.

13 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Val and Dalla's ages are mysteries to me still. Does anyone have any clue to how old they are? They are described as women, but a woman can be someone of almost any age that has flowered. Usually though, it is a girl that has flowered and is at least 16, if I am remembering this correctly. Flowered and not yet 16 is a maid.

By now Jon should be 16-17?

Maybe Val does prefer slightly younger, dark featured men? Would that be so bad?

A Storm of Swords - Jon I

<snip>

 "This beauty is her sister Val. Young Jarl beside her is her latest pet."

"I am no man's pet," said Jarl, dark and fierce.

 

I think it's Flowered but not yet wedded or bedded that makes a maid. It's the Deflowering that counts.. wed or not.

I have no exact idea of Val's age, but honestly, I think she's probably not above 20, and may even be a couple of years less. The only thing that causes us to think otherwise, is that George toys with us. There's no real reason to assume she's any older than "young" Jarl. We're told she's Dalla's sister, suggesting that there may be only a small gap between them ... but there can be great age differences between sisters.. and if they are sisters by vocation only, and not by blood, the gap can be even greater.

I always took her as being much of an age with Jarl

Two quotes from ASoS. Jon III  :

Though he could not have been older than twenty, Jarl had been raiding for eight years, and had gone over the Wall a dozen times with the likes of Alfyn Crowkiller and the Weeper, and more recently with his own band.

***
Jarl was with the Magnar; Mance had given them the joint command. Styr was none too pleased by that, Jon had noted early on. Mance Rayder had called the dark youth a "pet" of Val, who was sister to Dalla, his own queen, which made Jarl a sort of good brother once removed to the King-beyond-the-Wall. The Magnar plainly resented sharing his authority. 

OK,now.. Mance left the wall in 287 or 288 between 11 and 12 years before meeting Jon.

My figuring is in here -   (Even if you don't accept the hypothesis (OT here), I think the timeline must be pretty sound. The key is when Qorgyle must have taken Mance to WF and the fact that Mance left the watch "during" his command)

Mance crossed the wall "half a hundred times" since - that works out to roughly quarterly trips (probably to keep abreast of current affairs) He's one man, not raiding, so needs less preparation(and no-one would be surprised to see an itinerant singer making his usual rounds).

Jarl is twenty at the outside.. But is he even 20 ?  He's been raiding for 8 yrs. and had a dozen trips  "with the likes of Alfyn Crowkiller and the Weeper, and more recently with his own band"... but is that total?.. Or is it to be taken as - 12 with Alfyn and the Weeper, and more (,) recently with his own band?..  On reflection,I think it has to be total with the extra preparations needed to move a raiding band ... and it wouldn't be wise to make raids at such regular intervals.

20 - 8 = 12... That seems reasonable. Squirrel says she made her first trip at 12, but a strong boy who's a good climber might have been taken along a year or two earlier. So Jarl could quite easily be as young as 18.

Now Val - is treated as a woman, and she's probably not a virgin by any stretch of the imagination .. but Jarl is not described as her husband. The use of the word "pet" is deceptive, because we could easily take it to mean "boy toy" and Jarl is not her first "pet" but only her latest, according to Mance. So it's easy to see her as a mature woman (say, 20-25 or so) with a string of past younger lovers, when latest might only mean Jarl is her second "pet".

When Jarl and his team start their climb, he tells them, “Mance promises swords for every man of the first team to reach the top,” ... ... “Southron swords of castle-forged steel. And your name in the song he’ll make of this, that too.

As they climb, Styr, watching, says,  “The Mance’s pet must want a sword,”

Jarl is Mance's protege. He's young, but Mance has named him joint commander ; which Styr resents, hence his use of "pet"... If George is thus far sticking to the "Vala" pattern, "pet" means Jarl is Val's protege too. If she's like the Vala, these women might  ally them selves with a warrior or leader for a time, promoting his career and advising him through prophesy/ visions where and when to lay his battle plans, or on other important matters. She might not stay with him, but move on.. or she might stay, if she thought he had great potential as a leader. (Mance certainly thought Jarl did) .. But she still might not marry him... or she might marry him (as Dalla married Mance), if she thought she could help him to become great enough (and I suppose it wouldn't hurt if there was personal attraction between them).

Val has already identified Jon as  a leader of great potential , greater than Jarl, probably greater than Mance, since he's succeeding where Mance failed.. and she likes him and wants him too.

[kissdbyfire]

10 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Because Val's not a rapist and Jon is trying to live by his vows. HENCE the parallel with Maegor the Blessed and his sister-wife in white.

Case in point Ygritte: Ygritte considers herself to be stolen by Jon, whether he agrees with that or not. Ygritte CHOOSES Jon. And there's the story about Ygritte already having had sex with a guy, who then decides to steal her (but she was already tired of him) and she and her family fight him truly off. I don't care what your opinion about it is, but the "stealing" is explained to be much subtler than a forced kidnapping in the books. Sure, there are wildling men who are rapist kidnappers. But you're ignoring the stories that the women tell about stealing in the books, just because you're opinionated about the concept being abused. (and no, we're not actually talking the RL stealing that's going on in Congo)

No, Stannis has not stolen Val from Jon, because Stannis didn't kill Jon, and Val didn't want to be stolen by Stannis. Jon's attitude about how he captured Val gives Val a total out of it. Her doing what he wants - kneeling for Selyse - is one of those indications that Val subdues herself to Jon's will, and considers herself stolen by him, whether Jon acknowledges it or not, just as Ygritte considered herself stolen by Jon. 

 This is a good quote on the subject.

ASoS, JON V

 

“Harma and the Bag of Bones don’t come raiding for fish and apples. They steal swords and axes. Spices, silks, and furs. They grab every coin and ring and jeweled cup they can find, casks of wine in summer and casks of beef in winter, and they take women in any season and carry them off beyond the Wall.”
“And what if they do? I’d sooner be stolen by a strong man than be given t’ some weakling by my father.”
“You say that, but how can you know? What if you were stolen by someone you hated?”
“He’d have t’ be quick and cunning and brave t’ steal me. So his sons would be strong and smart as well. Why would I hate such a man as that?”
“Maybe he never washes, so he smells as rank as a bear.”
“Then I’d push him in a stream or throw a bucket o’ water on him. Anyhow, men shouldn’t smell sweet like flowers.”
“What’s wrong with flowers?”
“Nothing, for a bee. For bed I want one o’ these.” Ygritte made to grab the front of his breeches.
Jon caught her wrist. “What if the man who stole you drank too much?” he insisted. “What if he was brutal or cruel?” He tightened his grip to make a point. “What if he was stronger than you, and liked to beat you bloody?”
"I’d cut his throat while he slept. You know nothing, Jon Snow.” Ygritte twisted like an eel and wrenched away from him.
I know one thing. I know that you are wildling to the bone. It was easy to forget that sometimes, when they were laughing together, or kissing. But then one of them would say something, or do something, and he would suddenly be reminded of the wall between their worlds.
“A man can own a woman or a man can own a knife,” Ygritte told him, “but no man can own both. Every little girl learns that from her mother.”

 

[kissdbyfire]

@bemused, I don't recall any interviews/SSMs where Martin talks about Eddard's generation not having the skinchanging trait; of course, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist, only that I don't have a link for it.

As to the current generation, we have at least two SSMs where he talks about this:

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Quite_a_Few_Questions

Are all the Stark children wargs/skin changers with their wolves?

To a greater or lesser degree, yes, but the amount of control varies widely.

 

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1260

I will now tell the story of what GRRM said when asked about the Stark children and their ability as wargs. He was asked if the trait of being a warg ran in the Stark family.

"I don't know if I want to get into genetics - this is fantasy, not scifi" He replied. "I don't think this is necessarily a 'Stark' ability, though all the children have it to one extent or another. They also realize it to one extent or another. Arya doesn't realize she has it, she keeps thinking she has these weird dreams, and of course Bran is much further along". Thats all I have in of an exact quote in my notes. I believe he went on to say something about how Bran was seeking the crow and then took the next question.

I am not sure this is anything new. But perhaps he had not said -all- of the children had it before. And perhaps he had not implied so strongly before that it was not genetic people like Ned would probably not have it. However, the later is my interpretation of something he was implying by words and vocal tone. He acutally only said what I recorded above, he did not want to discuss genetics, but the children had it.

[sweetsunray]

3 hours ago, bemused said:

I do go a bit farther. I don't doubt that some Starks may have been born with the capacity to become a warg/ skinchanger, but I have a very strong feeling that for a Stark, it takes exposure to a direwolf to act as a catalyst and awaken the ability. I'm betting Starks are a special case. We've yet to hear of anyone but a Stark being bonded with a direwolf. (Not even the Wolf King) Varamyr, in his arrogance, thought he could take Ghost .. I don't believe it. ... It may even have been much longer than 200 yrs, I'm just basing that figure on how long Ned said it had been since a direwolf had been seen south of the wall.

The 200 years is on purpose. It coincides with another 200 years ago event. That of "Good Queen" Alysanne coming to WF with Jahaerys and dragons (what a diplomatic peaceful gesture ain't it), who has the Starks surrender land so she can give the New Gift to the NW (something the Starks warned was folly and did protest against by letter with the Citadel) AND who gifts the NW another "better" castle than that "horrid" Nightfort with its sooo very magical black gate. The NIghtfort was abandoned 200 years ago, no more direwolves seen for 200 years. In those 200 years Stark attitudes alter significantly. About 100 years after Good Queen Alysanne's visit all the brothers of a Stark sister protested heavily against her being married to a southerner. They even refused to attend the wedding. But after 180 years Rickard arranged suddenly nothing but southern marriages: Brandon-Cat, Robert-Lyanna, while of course the maesters kept on teaching that wargs and the likes are but fairytales.

You are right that dogs are said to be the easiest to bond with. But in the changed political climate of those 200 years a Stark warging his pet dog may not have been recognized as a warg, and I'm pretty sure that whomever was the maester at that time would dispell a young Stark child from thinking too much about the close bond he has with the dog, and perhaps make sure it got killed somehow. If a Stark warg as a kid doesn't have a Jojen around him to insist that what is happening is warging but only a maester to disuade him from it, then that kid at some point will do like Robb when older, or lose the bonded pet like Sansa, and simply not develop it.

[Lord Varys]

12 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Jon "captured" her, by disarming her and holding a dagger to her throat. AND Ygritte had the hots for Jon.

So, Jon "captured" her + Ygritte has the hots for him + she's free => Ygritte says he "stole" her. It's the whole combo that makes women claim they've been "stolen" and thus that guy's wife.

Well, that doesn't make much sense if the man doesn't want to have such a woman. Wildling women aren't obeying the ridiculous rules of Wookiee life debts, right? Wildlings marriages aren't marriages at all, by the way. They don't give a rat's ass about bastards, either, and that presumably means you are married to somebody as long as you hang out with that person. If you want to be with somebody else you can just leave. If the man lets you go, that is. Men are not stolen, after all. They steal.

12 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Are you deliberately being obtuse? I'm not talking what some wildling man thinks he did,but what the wildling woman considers herself to be. Once you accept that wildling women are the authority in the books on how and when they are "stolen" and not you, then all of your questions about Stannis are answered.

But I think that's just a stupid romantic reinterpretation of this. Yes, there are hints that there is nice stealing going on just as there are romantic marriages, arranged marriages, and forced marriages in real life. But you cannot reduce the stealing thing to 'the woman decides'. Not when a lot of wildlings don't give a damn about the interests of the women they steal.

12 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Jon "captured" Val + Val has the hots for him + Jon killed Jarl => Val considers herself "stolen" and his wife.

What has killing to do with any of that? Not to mention that Jon did not kill Jarl.

 

13 hours ago, dmc515 said:

Hm, the scene seemed pretty chaotic.  And Leathers was there, right?  Doesn't seem like the type to look the other way, and Marsh and him would be very strange bedfellows. 

The commotion at Hardin's Tower brings out people (watchmen, free folk, queen's men) from the surrounding keeps. But not from the Shieldhall - that's too far away. Jon commands then to form a line to keep the onlookers back, especially Selyse's people because the dead man is Ser Patrek.

Jon mentions Leathers but we don't know where he is or whether he is actually there. Then Jon sees the steel among the people surrounding him - and Wick attacks him. Horse and Rory - who had been with Jon since he left the Shieldhall - are either gone or may be involved in the assassination (the third dagger, perhaps?). Jon hears men screaming before Marsh stabs him, and that could mean anything. If we assume Marsh had a plan - and he must had one considering that he left the Shieldhall earlier and then obviously followed Jon with his people to attack him at an opportune moment, presumably before he had gone back to the armory where Ghost could protect him.

Considering that the Lord Commander wouldn't be completely alone at any time they must either have had sufficient men to overcome all of Jon's friends (they could be the men screaming) or Jon's two guardsmen Horse and Rory were Marsh's people all along (then the men screaming might just be onlookers witnessing the murder who are unable to do something because they are too far away and Jon is surrounded by a dozen or a score of assassins.

13 hours ago, dmc515 said:

I agree they'd be afraid of her.  That's why I would assume their plan would ensure she's not there, but also that they'd be reticent to approach her in any way IRT to convincing/tricking her to avoid Jon.  After all, she's a witch with mysterious powers.  Don't wanna tip her off.

You have a point there. I was thinking of something improvised like 'Lady Melisandre, the queen is looking for you. Something has happened to the Princess.' Not sure why they should think this would raise Mel's suspicions.

13 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

It's in character really for Cersei not to care about Tommen's nameday (she doesn't care about Tommen), and we wouldn't have seen celebrations about his nameday while Joffrey's alive. Then there's his wedding to Marg and Tywin's funeral. And Cersei has Marg and herself locked up by the HS not long after.

But the king's birthday/nameday would be an important event in and of itself. Tommen is the king. His mother can't just not celebrate it. And Jon's sixteenth nameday would be important for him, personally.

3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

“A man can own a woman or a man can own a knife,” Ygritte told him, “but no man can own both. Every little girl learns that from her mother.”

The problem with that quote is that it is not saying anything. Everybody can kill somebody while he or she sleeps. That's no great deed. The difficulty is to actually go through with it.

Ygritte stresses there the fact that she thinks she would not be made or kept as a wife against her will. But she is just a naive young girl. She hasn't been Ramsay's wife, or has she? Or Gregor Clegane's? Or the Weeper's or Varamyr's?

I do not contest that there is an elite of wildling women who are strong enough to fight off (weaker) men they don't want to have sex with. But the likes of the Weeper and Varamyr take what they want and have the means to make women do their bidding regardless what they want. Not every wildling woman knows how to fight. Ygritte is lucky to have a spear, but Gilly is not so lucky. And neither are those wildling women who don't have a powerful family to protect them or who aren't taught how to defend themselves or stand up to other men.

[kissdbyfire]

24 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 The commotion at Hardin's Tower brings out people (watchmen, free folk, queen's men) from the surrounding keeps. But not from the Shieldhall - that's too far away. Jon commands then to form a line to keep the onlookers back, especially Selyse's people because the dead man is Ser Patrek.

Jon mentions Leathers but we don't know where he is or whether he is actually there. Then Jon sees the steel among the people surrounding him - and Wick attacks him. Horse and Rory - who had been with Jon since he left the Shieldhall - are either gone or may be involved in the assassination (the third dagger, perhaps?). Jon hears men screaming before Marsh stabs him, and that could mean anything. If we assume Marsh had a plan - and he must had one considering that he left the Shieldhall earlier and then obviously followed Jon with his people to attack him at an opportune moment, presumably before he had gone back to the armory where Ghost could protect him.

Considering that the Lord Commander wouldn't be completely alone at any time they must either have had sufficient men to overcome all of Jon's friends (they could be the men screaming) or Jon's two guardsmen Horse and Rory were Marsh's people all along (then the men screaming might just be onlookers witnessing the murder who are unable to do something because they are too far away and Jon is surrounded by a dozen or a score of assassins.

On what do you base the assumption that Hardin's Tower is "too far away from the Shieldhall" and therefore the wildlings wouldn't have heard anything?

For instance, we have this bit of info from Jon's last chapter in Dance and it suggests the opposite.

“I will send for ale,” Jon said, distracted. Melisandre was gone, he realized, and so were the queen’s knights. I should have gone to Selyse first. She has the right to know her lord is dead. “You must excuse me. I’ll leave you to get them drunk.”
“Har! A task I’m well suited for, crow. On your way!”
Horse and Rory fell in beside Jon as he left the Shieldhall. I should talk with Melisandre after I see the queen, he thought. If she could see a raven in a storm, she can find Ramsay Snow for me. Then he heard the shouting … and a roar so loud it seemed to shake the Wall. “That come from Hardin’s Tower, m’lord,” Horse reported. He might have said more, but the scream cut him off.
Val, was Jon’s first thought.* But that was no woman’s scream. That is a man in mortal agony. He broke into a run. Horse and Rory raced after him. “Is it wights?” asked Rory. Jon wondered. Could his corpses have escaped their chains?”

It seems the commotion will be heard by those in the Shieldhall; in fact, I'm quite certain the wildlings hear it and basically take over the NW.

*underlined just b/c it reinforces the fact that Jon has feelings for Val.

24 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The problem with that quote is that it is not saying anything. Everybody can kill somebody while he or she sleeps. That's no great deed. The difficulty is to actually go through with it.

Ygritte stresses there the fact that she thinks she would not be made or kept as a wife against her will. But she is just a naive young girl. She hasn't been Ramsay's wife, or has she? Or Gregor Clegane's? Or the Weeper's or Varamyr's?

I do not contest that there is an elite of wildling women who are strong enough to fight off (weaker) men they don't want to have sex with. But the likes of the Weeper and Varamyr take what they want and have the means to make women do their bidding regardless what they want. Not every wildling woman knows how to fight. Ygritte is lucky to have a spear, but Gilly is not so lucky. And neither are those wildling women who don't have a powerful family to protect them or who aren't taught how to defend themselves or stand up to other men.

I don't think Ygritte is a 'naive young girl' as you put it. Like, not at all, and there's nothing in the text that suggests she is. Also, I don't think it's just a handful of wildling women, or an elite group, who would have the ability/will/skill/whatever to fight back and/or defend themselves. In fact, I think it's the opposite; I think the wildling women who can't defend themselves are the minority. And Gilly, despite having been born north of the Wall, is no 'wildling woman' imo. Her situation and circumstances are entirely different, and a pretty unique case. 

[LongRider]

9 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

And Gilly, despite having been born north of the Wall, is no 'wildling woman' imo. Her situation and circumstances are entirely different, and a pretty unique case. 

Gilly is a wildling, but obviously, not with the same traditions as Ygritte and the other wilding women we've seen.   She was however, brave, as she used her wits to approach Sam and Jon.  Later, Jon spoke to Sam about being careful about falling in love with Gilly, wise counsel from his experiences with Ygritte, and perhaps projection as well towards the lovely Val?

[kissdbyfire]

5 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Gilly is a wildling, but obviously, not with the same traditions as Ygritte and the other wilding women we've seen.   She was however, brave, as she used her wits to approach Sam and Jon.  Later, Jon spoke to Sam about being careful about falling in love with Gilly, wise counsel from his experiences with Ygritte, and perhaps projection as well towards the lovely Val?

Yes, she is a wildling b/c those born north of the Wall are called wildlings but she is nothing like your average wildling woman, and I'm not implying she is less brave or smart or anything like that. Only that her world and life and experiences and upbringing have nothing in common with those of wildling women. Gilly's situation and circumstances are unique and can only be compared to those of her sisters. 

[Lord Varys]

6 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

On what do you base the assumption that Hardin's Tower is "too far away from the Shieldhall" and therefore the wildlings wouldn't have heard anything?

For instance, we have this bit of info from Jon's last chapter in Dance and it suggests the opposite.

I've read that myself, and the impression I get is that Jon was already outside the Shieldhall when he heard the noise - and that noise subsided after he had arrived there. One should assume that Tormund and the others would have been with Jon had their heard the noise around the same time as Jon himself did, no?

6 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I don't think Ygritte is a 'naive young girl' as you put it. Like, not at all, and there's nothing in the text that suggests she is. Also, I don't think it's just a handful of wildling women, or an elite group, who would have the ability/will/skill/whatever to fight back and/or defend themselves. In fact, I think it's the opposite; I think the wildling women who can't defend themselves are the minority. And Gilly, despite having been born north of the Wall, is no 'wildling woman' imo. Her situation and circumstances are entirely different, and a pretty unique case. 

There is. Ygritte believes in their doomed love story like a naive little girl. Ygritte has no idea what a tower or a castle looks like.

It is not just Gilly. It is the women that are raped and killed in the wake of Mance's defeat (reread Varamyr's Prologue), it is Varamyr raping every girl he wanted, it is the wildlings as a collective raiding the northern reaches of the North since, well, forever, abducting women on a regular basis.

This is basically a lawless society. Whoever is strong takes what he wants. That is the basis of their society, and the sort of contract that defines the relationship between a man and a woman. But the vast majority of women would not object to be treated as chattel because else the men would just kill them. If Ygritte thinks she can get away with murdering some guy then nobody is going to say anything if some guy just kills some obnoxious women. Unless, of course, she is well-connected and has a lot of friends and all that. But that is then wildling aristocracy again.

The same kind of thing is reflected in the behavior of the clansmen in the Mountains of the Moon, by the way. They are wildlings, too. There are elite female warriors and leaders like Chella but I think you remember what the wildlings do to the women they capture and how the manly men like Shagga and Gunthor talk about the average women in their clans.

7 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Gilly is a wildling, but obviously, not with the same traditions as Ygritte and the other wilding women we've seen.   She was however, brave, as she used her wits to approach Sam and Jon.  Later, Jon spoke to Sam about being careful about falling in love with Gilly, wise counsel from his experiences with Ygritte, and perhaps projection as well towards the lovely Val?

We have to keep in mind that only a tiny fraction of the wildlings are 'free folk'. The Thenns aren't, and neither are Hornfoot Men, the Cannibals, the Ice River clans, and a bunch of the other people out there.

But the point is that we don't see many spearwives beyond the Wall. Some women fight and some are even leaders of their people, but that is a minority. The average women should be far off beyond the Wall than she is in the Seven Kingdoms.

And by the way: If Val isn't a spearwife then she might not even be able to defend herself against an attacker. Thus I think it is pretty reasonable to assume that she is rather than make up something about her being some sort special woman.