Val is Jon’s true Queen. Part trois.

[LongRider]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Ygritte isn't our window into wildling culture or the role of women therein.

Of course she is a window into wilding culture....she, like a window gives us a look at something.  She guides Jon through much of the culture, the wherefore's and the how to's for Jon and the readers!  Ygritte was about as much of a window as one could get. 

Gilly is one of our window in the ways of Craster's Keep too.  Come on!

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Of course she is a window into wilding culture....she, like a window gives us a look at something.  She guides Jon through much of the culture, the wherefore's and the how to's for Jon and the readers!  Ygritte was about as much of a window as one could get. 

Gilly is one of our window in the ways of Craster's Keep too.  Come on!

Sorry, it was supposed to read 'Ygritte isn't our only window into wildling culture or the role of women therein.' I'll correct that. The point being that Ygritte gives us her view and perhaps the view of her peers (the spearwives) on certain things, but is hardly qualified to give us a thorough view of her own culture. Just as Tywin isn't exactly capable of giving us a good picture what it means to be a woman like Pia in Westeros.

And Ygritte demonstrates often enough that she lacks the ability or willingness to put herself into the shoes of the person she is talking to. That is the whole point of the 'You know nothing, Jon Snow' routine. She judges everything and everybody by her own (inadequate) standards.

As many of you probably are realizing (getting annoyed by) I tend to forget to type a lot of words when I'm typing fast...

[LongRider]

6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

but is hardly qualified to give us a thorough view of her own culture.

Nope, she is highly qualified by being a life long, born into it member of that culture, her own culture.  

[Lord Varys]

12 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Nope, she is highly qualified by being a life long, born into it member of that culture, her own culture.  

So what? Tywin is also born into the culture of the Seven Kingdoms, right? Ygritte doesn't show any empathy or understanding for women like Gilly or Craster's other wives (who don't use that axe to kill him while he sleeps). This is either because she doesn't care about them or because she doesn't really understand how her own society works because she has viewed it through the lenses of a privileged spearwife woman who was brought up in a certain and with certain values that do not necessarily reflect the common wildling woman.

If you can't see why Ygritte is in a privileged position not understanding or caring about the things around her I can't help you. It is pretty obvious to me.

[The Fattest Leech]

18 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Sorry, it was supposed to read 'Ygritte isn't our only window into wildling culture or the role of women therein.' I'll correct that. The point being that Ygritte gives us her view and perhaps the view of her peers (the spearwives) on certain things, but is hardly qualified to give us a thorough view of her own culture. Just as Tywin isn't exactly capable of giving us a good picture what it means to be a woman like Pia in Westeros.

And Ygritte demonstrates often enough that she lacks the ability or willingness to put herself into the shoes of the person she is talking to. That is the whole point of the 'You know nothing, Jon Snow' routine. She judges everything and everybody by her own (inadequate) standards.

As many of you probably are realizing (getting annoyed by) I tend to forget to type a lot of words when I'm typing fast...

Look at the first line in my signature  

Ygritte's line , "you know nothing Jon Snow," is not ultimately intended as a snub or harsh judgement towards him. It is actually telling him, and the reader, there is something more, dig deeper, this is just one way to think of it, etc. 

Later in the story, in Dance I believe, both Tormund and Val also tell this to Jon. 

The funny thing about this is that the only thing Jon repeats that he knows is that Val is not a princess. It shows the southron perception of things are still missing key bits of information... Just like Jon earlier. 

[LongRider]

41 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Ygritte doesn't show any empathy or understanding for women like Gilly or Craster's other wives

So, she never met Gilly and what did she know of Craster?  I don't think she ever mentioned him.

 

41 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I can't help you

[Lord Varys]

Just now, LongRider said:

So, she never met Gilly and what did she know of Craster?  I don't think she ever mentioned them.

She doesn't, but she makes it clear that a true woman, a woman like her, would kill every man who tried to take her against her will, etc. That is not only condescending against people who lack her mental strength but, most likely, also exaggerating her own strength. Ygritte doesn't seem to have had close contact with men like Ramsay, Gregor, Qyburn, and so on. All of them should be capable to make her meek and mild against her will - after the proper training everything is possible, after all.

And I guess you would agree that the Craster-wives scenario (one guy controlling a bunch of women) is scarcely unknown among the wildlings. We have Ygon Oldfeather's many wives and we have the semi-divine status of the Thenns (suggesting that the Magnars control their women as thoroughly as they are controlling their men). Ygritte can hardly be ignorant of all that. But she doesn't care and effectively blames the women in such relationships for their own misery (if they see it as such, which I assume - we have confirmation that the women Varamyr raped had no intention to sleep with the beastling).

[LongRider]

None of this um, discussion about Ygritte has any bearing on Val and Jon.  Val and Jon have an attraction towards each other, and what the deceased Ygritte may of thought of Craster and his wives doesn't and never would make one iota of difference.   Val is here and now, and alive. 

Schrödinger's Jon had feelings before the stabbing and we will have to see after this incident is resolved whether or not he still does.  (I'm in the Jon lives corner of the box myself.)  What really matters is what the characters are shown to feel, and they feel attraction.

[DMC]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, I think Bowen Marsh was genuinely sad when he killed Jon. The man had tears in his eyes, after all. They may have made rather detailed plans for their coup (like all those would-be Hitler assassins in the German military did back in the day) without thinking the assassination itself through.

Yeah, this is my general take as well.  Like I said, from Marsh's perspective I think he viewed it as his duty and considered assassination as a last resort he genuinely wanted to avoid until the Shieldhall pushed him over the edge.

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The stabbing seems somewhat weird but there is no reason that he could not have had enough men with him to finish the job. Whether there were other parts to the plan remains to be seen. But if Marsh has more than just a bunch of co-conspirators then many people could be a part of this.

Yep, I'm certainly of the opinion the conspirators "finished the job."  And certainly many people could be a part of it.  Not sure what we're arguing about now....I guess I still maintain none of this precludes Leathers from being at the scene - seems like there were a number of people (like the Queen's men/knights Jon identifies) at the stabbing that weren't involved in the plot.

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Hell, another good way to separate Melisandre from Jon could have been if some goon of Marsh's approached her telling her that Lord Commander Snow would like speak to her immediately after he left the hall in the King's Tower.

My point was the conspirators would likely be too afraid of Mel to approach her, which I believe you tacitly agreed a few posts back.  Is it conceivable they did anyway?  Certainly.  Man you're like a dog with a bone sometimes.  Hell, I don't even remember how (or even if) this point was relevant to the original discussion anyway!

[Lord Varys]

7 hours ago, dmc515 said:

Yep, I'm certainly of the opinion the conspirators "finished the job."  And certainly many people could be a part of it.  Not sure what we're arguing about now....I guess I still maintain none of this precludes Leathers from being at the scene - seems like there were a number of people (like the Queen's men/knights Jon identifies) at the stabbing that weren't involved in the plot.

I think that refers to the idea that not only Marsh's people were present near Hardin's Tower and that there might have been enough men there to intervene and save Jon before he gets stabbed a fourth, eighth, or fifteenth time. The fact that Leathers seems to have have been there and that some wildlings and queen's men were looking and possibly considering attacking Wun Wun doesn't mean Marsh isn't approaching Jon with enough men to kill him even if some of the others might intend to interfere with the stabbing.

7 hours ago, dmc515 said:

My point was the conspirators would likely be too afraid of Mel to approach her, which I believe you tacitly agreed a few posts back.  Is it conceivable they did anyway?  Certainly.  Man you're like a dog with a bone sometimes.  Hell, I don't even remember how (or even if) this point was relevant to the original discussion anyway!

I know ;-). But that was just me having an idea thinking about the thing. After all, it is interesting where Melisandre is gone. Especially considering that her fist chapter in TWoW might even begin in the Shieldhall and then directly cover what happened thereafter (or at least begin shortly after she left the hall giving us a flashback scene what she thought/felt when Jon read the Pink Letter). And you have to keep in mind that Marsh and company might know too little about Mel to really fear her. They don't know about Cressen's attempt to kill her or the shadow assassins.

It is quite interesting to speculate what Mel is going to do now. I think she'll play the crucial role to bring down Marsh's new regime. Both the talk about her powders as well as the talk about the strength of her magic at the Wall wasn't introduced for no reason. Neither were the glamors. Hell, perhaps she is even able to have fake a Jon resurrection/survival by having some dude to wear a Jon glamor while they try to figure out how to reunite spirit and body. And I really want to see her making more shadow assassins...

8 hours ago, LongRider said:

None of this um, discussion about Ygritte has any bearing on Val and Jon.  Val and Jon have an attraction towards each other, and what the deceased Ygritte may of thought of Craster and his wives doesn't and never would make one iota of difference.   Val is here and now, and alive.

It is relevant insofar as the whole Ygritte thing is the basis for the idea that Jon stole Val, too, and that stealing is a great wildling custom causing Jon now to be 'married' to Val the way he was 'married' to Ygritte.

[kissdbyfire]

13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

@kissdbyfire

Ah, but they are outside and possibly already somewhat away from the hall. The hall itself is full roaring men who are about to drink a lot of ale. Usually you don't hear any commotion or noise from outside in such company. Just try to listen to what's going on outside if you are in some beer tent, 'having fun'.

You are again dismissing what's in the text. Yes, I bet it was mighty loud inside the Shieldhall, and yes, that might make it difficult for those inside to hear the commotion. But a few lines down we have, in the text, Jon's observations that men were pouring from the other buildings. And Martin uses "pouring", to indicate large numbers. Not only that, but it's actually spelled out that wildlings are among those arriving, and the wildlings were in the Shieldhall. 

“Men poured from the surrounding keeps and towers. Northmen, free folk, queen’s men … “Form a line,” Jon Snow commanded them. “Keep them back. Everyone, but especially the queen’s men.” The dead man was Ser Patrek of King’s Mountain; his head was largely gone, but his heraldry was as distinctive as his face. Jon did not want to risk Ser Malegorn or Ser Brus or any of the queen’s other knights trying to avenge him.”

I also don't understand why is it still being questioned whether Leathers is present or not. Again, it's in the text, and there's nothing to indicate that Jon might have mistaken someone else for Leathers.

“Wun Weg Wun Dar Wun howled again and gave Ser Patrek’s other arm a twist and pull. It tore loose from his shoulder with a spray of bright red blood. Like a child pulling petals off a daisy, thought Jon. “Leathers, talk to him, calm him. The Old Tongue, he understands the Old Tongue.”

 

13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, okay then. Perhaps Ygritte isn't a naive young girl. That wasn't really my point as far as I recall. But I get a general sense of naivete from her. She is pretty wise in some fields but not so much in others. Ah, I recall (or perhaps not). Anyway, I find it naive and stupid of her to assume that every 'real woman' is or should be as strong as she is. That is the same kind of internalized misogyny we get from Shae. Lollys should better shut up and stop complaining because she was just fucked. Technically that's true but usually get gang-raped isn't a nice experience at all and only a person who was abused for a long time and to pretty strong degree would brush such an experience aside this way.

Can you perhaps explain to me how you reached that conclusion? I'd like to understand how you got there. I see no textual evidence for this but a lot to the contrary, most notably the size of Mance's 'army' which included a lot of non-combatants (i.e. women and children). That already confirmed that not all wildling women are spearwives. Stannis doesn't defeat an army that is made up to the same degree of male and female warriors.

It's not naïveté or stupidity, and it's not internalised misogyny. it's what she knows, her culture, her way of life. As to the majority of wildling women being able to defend themselves, again, it's in the text. Mind you, I'm not saying the majority of wildling women are spearwives, only that the majority would be able to defend themselves. And that doesn't mean they'd always succeed, only that they'd fight back and try. And I've reached this conclusion because of what's in the text. When Ygritte tells Jon every man can own a woman or a knife, she very clearly says that every little girl learns that from their mothers, not just the spearwives' daughters, or a selected few girls.

 

13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I've addressed that already:

Do we know that Val met all that many wildlings out there who could have molested her? Not to my knowledge. More importantly, she was part of Mance's inner circle. Presumably that would have protected her from most not so nice men she might have encountered.

But her conversation with Jon before her departure makes it pretty clear to me that she didn't have to search for Tormund. She told Jon when she would most likely return and was very confident that she would return with or without Tormund. That strongly suggests she knew where to look for him (perhaps because she knew where Mance set up a meeting point should things go wrong) and just went there and intended to go back without looking any further should Tormund not be there.

Do we know she didn't? But it doesn't even matter, really. Because even if she knew where to find Tormund, she had no way of knowing for sure she wouldn't run into hostile wildlings or even WW. And still, she's confident enough to tell Jon when she'll be back, with or without Tormund. That shows us, and Jon, that she is very resourceful. 

[Lord Varys]

@kissdbyfire

Considering that the Shieldhall is not specifically mentioned as being one of the keeps nearby and considering that Jon and his guardsmen had to run to Hardin's Tower I think it is obvious that the buildings from which the people are pouring forth from do not include the Shieldhall.

Not all the wildlings were in the Shieldhall, after all.

But Ygritte could just have thought that every wildling girl would be raised like she was. That is actually quite common among people who don't interact all that much with different people. And Ygritte also assumed everybody was building stuff the way her people were.

Gilly wasn't taught how to defend herself. The girls Varamyr raped weren't taught to defend themselves, either. Or dared not. I'm with you that most wildling mothers would try to teach their daughters that they have to defend themselves against men - what I'm skeptical about is the idea that this is very successful unless you are a spearwife and have the guts and experience to kill other people. And I can steal a girl against her will and if I've got a family of my own then they most likely will put said girl down if she actually cuts my throat in my sleep, right? So I control her still if I just can take her to my hut/village. Perhaps a fierce attitude works to get rid of your average harasser/stalker, but it certainly will only be a challenge for the more determined ones. Somebody is always stronger than you. And considering that stealing is heavily ingrained in the culture I see no reason why people should object if somebody steals a woman against her will and beats her into submission.

It is no coincidence either that Mance and his inner circle have the hottest chicks. That what's the elite after. Val isn't there because of her brains, she is there because she looks hot. Brains are good, too, but neither Mance nor Jarl would fuck Dalla or Val if they were ugly as hell. That is why Val and Dalla are part of 'wildling royalty'.

But I'm interested what you mean by a majority of wildling women are capable of defending themselves. How do you think they do that and who do you think they can defend themselves from to what degree?

As to Val's mission:

We don't know what Val did out in the wild. I'm not saying she never met some guy out there. I'm saying it was not that remarkable that she found Tormund if she knew where she had to look. That she can get around on her own is obvious, nobody has ever doubted that. But I daresay she did not chance on the Weeper else all Jon would have found of her would be her eyeless head.

[DMC]

38 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I think that refers to the idea that not only Marsh's people were present near Hardin's Tower and that there might have been enough men there to intervene and save Jon before he gets stabbed a fourth, eighth, or fifteenth time. The fact that Leathers seems to have have been there and that some wildlings and queen's men were looking and possibly considering attacking Wun Wun doesn't mean Marsh isn't approaching Jon with enough men to kill him even if some of the others might intend to interfere with the stabbing.

Gotcha.  While I agree with others that Marsh and the conspirators are in a very vulnerable position, basically immediately, I also do not think they would have proceeded with the stabbing if they thought they could be stopped before conclusively finishing the assassination.  Leathers is most certainly there IMO, but I think Marsh and co. clearly have the numbers IRT watchmen at the scene (i.e. immediate vicinity) and are (rightly) assuming the Queen's men will not intervene.  This makes sense to me as pretty much everyone not involved with the plot will be shocked and confused to the point of inaction at least for how long it takes to stab a person to death.

One interesting part of the text that been bothering me is when Jon tells us, "Men poured from the surrounding keeps and towers. Northmen, free folk, queen’s men…"  What Northmen?  Is he referring to NW members?  If so, this seems strange coming from Jon - one would think he'd say "brothers" or something.  While I haven't re-read the rest of ADWD in over a year now, it was my understanding the northmen that came to the wall for Alys' wedding and to complain about the wildings (Flint, Norrey) had left by this time.  Just seems odd wording on Martin's part.  Maybe it reflects Jon no longer thinking of NW as "brothers" or something?

52 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

After all, it is interesting where Melisandre is gone. Especially considering that her fist chapter in TWoW might even begin in the Shieldhall and then directly cover what happened thereafter (or at least begin shortly after she left the hall giving us a flashback scene what she thought/felt when Jon read the Pink Letter). And you have to keep in mind that Marsh and company might know too little about Mel to really fear her. They don't know about Cressen's attempt to kill her or the shadow assassins.

That's very true, it is of primary interest to me.  While the NW wouldn't know about Mel's most infamous deeds, they surely know she's the one responsible for the spectacle of the Mace burning and all the (seemingly daily) ceremonies/praying that would come off as creepy to a regular Westerosi as it would if you saw it outside Starbucks or something.  In terms of her "showing her powers," I wonder if they'd be aware of her burning Eagle-Orell?  Anyway, she is pretty consistently portrayed as projecting a fearsome and supernatural aura to most everybody even without the display of "powers."

59 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I think she'll play the crucial role to bring down Marsh's new regime. Both the talk about her powders as well as the talk about the strength of her magic at the Wall wasn't introduced for no reason. Neither were the glamors. Hell, perhaps she is even able to have fake a Jon resurrection/survival by having some dude to wear a Jon glamor while they try to figure out how to reunite spirit and body. And I really want to see her making more shadow assassins...

LOL, I'd be down with more shadow assassins as well but after all they took out of Stannis I wonder how she would 'birth' a new one (at least until Jon is revived).  I'm also highly skeptical there will be any new Marsh regime, but if so, yeah, one would think she'd be integral in bringing them down.  However, count me against the use of glamors - it may be ridiculous to draw a line on what fantasy elements are used in the series, but I always found them too cheesy, even soapy.

[BalerionTheCat]

On 12/07/2016 at 11:18 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

Im torn to what level Jon will need fire for his rebirth. I can see it for his Targ side, but I feel his identity is that if the ice. Who knows? 

Your question about fire involved in Jon's rebirth had me thinking about the Targaryens expecting to be reborn by fire into dragons. I suppose this belief has its root in some legend or prophecy or whatever scroll private to the Targaryens, and is not just the delusion of mad people. I don't expect Jon to be reborn in a dragon, of course. But whatever the truth of these legends, I expect it will apply to Jon.

[The Fattest Leech]

29 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Your question about fire involved in Jon's rebirth had me thinking about the Targaryens expecting to be reborn by fire into dragons. I suppose this belief has its root in some legend or prophecy or whatever scroll private to the Targaryens, and is not just the delusion of mad people. I don't expect Jon to be reborn in a dragon, of course. But whatever the truth of these legends, I expect it will apply to Jon.

I agree about prophecy, or, maybe just a Targaryen fascination with dragons and burning the bodies could have been a way to "honor" the dragon. 

Im on my phone and I still haven't had coffee so I can really trust myself to find any book sources to back it up, but I will later. 

I tend to lean toward Jon being the ice not just for known, obvious reasons, but also because Bran described the wall as weeping salty tears of sadness, or something. I need to re-find that one as well. 

Ok. Coffee time and then to search. This is bugging me. 

[The Fattest Leech]

Who doesn't love a good re-read?

Here is another example of how the people south of the wall do not understand the meaning of "stealing" as the wildlings mean it, which is most cases means a union, or, marriage. ---> Yes, there are assholes among the wildlings, I stated earlier in the thread, but there are just as many assholes of all ranks south of the wall as well.

>Elia was for duty, Lyanna for love.

>Ygritte was for duty, Val is for love.

More proof as to how Jon is just like his father:

A Storm of Swords - Daenerys IV

"The tourney Lord Whent staged at Harrenhal beside the Gods Eye, in the year of the false spring. A notable event. Besides the jousting, there was a mêlée in the old style fought between seven teams of knights, as well as archery and axe-throwing, a horse race, a tournament of singers, a mummer show, and many feasts and frolics. Lord Whent was as open handed as he was rich. The lavish purses he proclaimed drew hundreds of challengers. Even your royal father came to Harrenhal, when he had not left the Red Keep for long years. The greatest lords and mightiest champions of the Seven Kingdoms rode in that tourney, and the Prince of Dragonstone bested them all."

"But that was the tourney when he crowned Lyanna Stark as queen of love and beauty!" said Dany. "Princess Elia was there, his wife, and yet my brother gave the crown to the Stark girl, and later stole her away from her betrothed. How could he do that? Did the Dornish woman treat him so ill?"

 

AND this from the World book. WARNING! Cover your eyes because it gets steamy:

 

"And when the triumphant Prince of Dragonstone named Lyanna Stark, daughter of the Lord of Winterfell, the queen of love and beauty, placing a garland of blue roses in her lap with the tip of his lance,"

 

[The Fattest Leech]

3 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Your question about fire involved in Jon's rebirth had me thinking about the Targaryens expecting to be reborn by fire into dragons. I suppose this belief has its root in some legend or prophecy or whatever scroll private to the Targaryens, and is not just the delusion of mad people. I don't expect Jon to be reborn in a dragon, of course. But whatever the truth of these legends, I expect it will apply to Jon.

Ok, I know you are dying for the tear quote , here are the two that I merged as one in my mind.

This to me makes me think that Jon needs the ice more than the fire for his rebirth. Dany didn't have to die to be reborn, why does Jon if they are the parallels of each other. There is a very good chance that Jon will just need a witch (or two) to heal him and "open his eyes" as Dany needed MMD to teach her the spells she used during the Drogo fire. However, since this is a discussion, I am open to other ideas because there are just some things we don't know for sure... yet.

A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

... It was his uncle who'd told him that. He said that the outer surface of the Wall wept icy tears sometimes, though the core inside stayed frozen hard as rock. The steps must have melted and refrozen a thousand times since the last black brothers left the castle, and every time they did they shrunk a little and got smoother and rounder and more treacherous.

A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

"I am the sword in the darkness," Samwell Tarly said. "I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers. I am the shield that guards the realms of men."

"Then pass," the door said. Its lips opened, wide and wider and wider still, until nothing at all remained but a great gaping mouth in a ring of wrinkles. Sam stepped aside and waved Jojen through ahead of him. Summer followed, sniffing as he went, and then it was Bran's turn. Hodor ducked, but not low enough. The door's upper lip brushed softly against the top of Bran's head, and a drop of water fell on him and ran slowly down his nose. It was strangely warm, and salty as a tear.

 

And we all know that Melisandre can read her flames, but she interprets then incorrectly. These next ones we readers already know:

A Dance with Dragons - Jon X

 

"He is not dead. Stannis is the Lord's chosen, destined to lead the fight against the dark. I have seen it in the flames, read of it in ancient prophecy. When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone. Dragonstone is the place of smoke and salt."

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XIII

Then Bowen Marsh stood there before him, tears running down his cheeks. "For the Watch." He punched Jon in the belly. When he pulled his hand away, the dagger stayed where he had buried it.

Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger's hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. "Ghost," he whispered.

[BalerionTheCat]

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Ok, I know you are dying for the tear quote , here are the two that I merged as one in my mind.

There is something with Ice about Jon too. And nothing so far has been said to favor fire, his burned hand for example.
But for his resurrection, it seems the Targaryen fancy with fire should apply.

BTW, I remember this beautiful passage about Ice magic (ACoK, Jon III):

The pale pink light of dawn sparkled on branch and leaf and stone. Every blade of grass was carved from emerald, every drip of water turned to diamond. Flowers and mushrooms alike wore coats of glass. Even the mud puddles had a bright brown sheen. Through the shimmering greenery, the black tents of his brothers were encased in a fine glaze of ice.
So there is magic beyond the Wall after all. He found himself thinking of his sisters, perhaps because he’d dreamed of them last night. Sansa would call this an enchantment, and tears would fill her eyes at the wonder of it, but Arya would run out laughing and shouting, wanting to touch it all.

[The Fattest Leech]

6 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

There is something with Ice about Jon too. And nothing so far has been said to favor fire, his burned hand for example.
But for his resurrection, it seems the Targaryen fancy with fire should apply.

BTW, I remember this beautiful passage about Ice magic (ACoK, Jon III):

The pale pink light of dawn sparkled on branch and leaf and stone. Every blade of grass was carved from emerald, every drip of water turned to diamond. Flowers and mushrooms alike wore coats of glass. Even the mud puddles had a bright brown sheen. Through the shimmering greenery, the black tents of his brothers were encased in a fine glaze of ice.
So there is magic beyond the Wall after all. He found himself thinking of his sisters, perhaps because he’d dreamed of them last night. Sansa would call this an enchantment, and tears would fill her eyes at the wonder of it, but Arya would run out laughing and shouting, wanting to touch it all.

I totally agree I just can't tell when or where yet. I used to think they would burn Jon's body and then the ice dragon will be born, but then i felt he needed to be near a weirwood so Bran could guide him, or reveal certain things to Jon while Jon was dead. Jon will have his one major, magical moment as Dany did. I think in the process, Mel really messes up and either dies or sacrifices herself, but ultimately it will be Morna and Val that save Jon.

There is a lot of small clues that add up to a big one when it comes to Morna, and Val, being witches or spell casters, healers, or the like. I am digging the linking info up tonight.

[BalerionTheCat]

19 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I totally agree I just can't tell when or where yet. I used to think they would burn Jon's body and then the ice dragon will be born, but then i felt he needed to be near a weirwood so Bran could guide him, or reveal certain things to Jon while Jon was dead. Jon will have his one major, magical moment as Dany did. I think in the process, Mel really messes up and either dies or sacrifices herself, but ultimately it will be Morna and Val that save Jon.

There is a lot of small clues that add up to a big one when it comes to Morna, and Val, being witches or spell casters, healers, or the like. I am digging the linking info up tonight.

I know some are referring to Morna or Val, to heal or resurrect Jon. But besides wishful thinking, is there any evidence any of them have healing powers?

I have another crazy theory, and this one would satisfy your desire of Ice magic. The theory is that Marsh's betrayal will reveal the truth of one of Old Nan sayings:

The monsters cannot pass so long as the Wall stands and the men of the Night’s Watch stay true.

We know the Wall is a magical barrier, with places like the Nightfort Black Gate, Sam opened for Bran & Co. This betrayal would be the point where the NW failed. The Wall's would fail too. And its magic would leave, for somewhere else... To Jon, who would be the embodiment of what is left of the NW. This is completely different from the idea of healing and resurrection by fire. But both could happen and enable each other.

Concerning Ice dragons. I'm not sure they exist or would play a role. But if Ghost would transform in one of them...

Concerning Melisandre, many believe she can resurrect Jon because Thoros did it for Beric. But I don't see why R'hllor would help Thoros, free of charge. I'd rather see the work of the real Death God and for his own purpose: The Stranger of the Seven, the Lion of Night. He has still other names, according to the Faceless Men. To add to that, what Beric and Stoneheart are doing is more like what the Seven would ask: judging and punishing the wicked. LSH herself is looking like a Silent Sister:

A trestle table had been set up across the cave, in a cleft in the rock. Behind it sat a woman all in grey, cloaked and hooded. In her hands was a crown, a bronze circlet ringed by iron swords. She was studying it, her fingers stroking the blades as if to test their sharpness. Her eyes glimmered under her hood.
Grey was the color of the silent sisters, the handmaidens of the Stranger. Brienne felt a shiver climb her spine. Stoneheart.

The silent sisters never speak. We had a previous meeting between Cat and Silent sisters.

But outside her chambers she found Utherydes Wayn waiting with two women clad in grey, their faces cowled save for their eyes. Catelyn knew at once why they were here.

IMO the Stranger has manifested itself and will be the one to resurrect Jon. I'm sure he, the Stanger, the Lion of Night, can do better than for Beric.