Could Khal Drogo defeat an average Westerosi knight in single combat?

[Runaway Penguin]

Bravo (a very good one) might - as his weapon is thrusting so can go for weak points (joints etc.) - plus rapiers were often longer than regular swords (because they can get the same weight into a longer, thinner blade). Even then, he would probably still have at least a buckler and would have to be very good (Syrio vs. Lannisters). Note however that even Syrio lost against a KG - and not the sharpest knife in the drawer either.

Reach and weight can do a lot, too - WWII experience showed that despite rigorous close combat drill of Japanese soldiers, when it came to close combat, US soldiers won more often than not - bigger, stronger, with heavier and longer rifle (whether using bayonet or using it as blunt instrument). Same can be applied to usually well fed and strong (and protected) knights of Westeros with sword with longer reach.

[Lurid Jester]

2 hours ago, Runaway Penguin said:

Bravo (a very good one) might - as his weapon is thrusting so can go for weak points (joints etc.) - plus rapiers were often longer than regular swords (because they can get the same weight into a longer, thinner blade). Even then, he would probably still have at least a buckler and would have to be very good (Syrio vs. Lannisters). Note however that even Syrio lost against a KG - and not the sharpest knife in the drawer either.

Syrio lost against the KG because he had a stick (wooden and lead filled training sword) while the KG was armed and armored. 

[BricksAndSparrows]

7 hours ago, Oakhearts head said:

He is, basically. Is Trant more skilled than your average low-born, disadvantaged kid marching off to war? Yes. Is Trant exceptional among other Knights who received similar training and upbringing? Nope. 

What's weird is that you changed your viewpoint on this a few posts later when you agreed with the guy who said Trant was nothing more than your average guy who simply received good training.

I believe that Trant would have been better than the average knight. Especially since his personality was so damn lousy, he had to have something that would have impressed Jon Arryn and Robert enough to promote him.

Here is the best way I can describe my impression of Trant: Imagine a NBA basketball player, unremarkable among his peers, and never going to be a star player. But put that player on any neighborhood court (not up against kids or people that never play, but people that play regularly) and he's probably going to win.

I wouldn't call Trant the average knight, but what skill he does have, in my opinion, is no match for Drogo. Especially since I don't buy the whole "Drogo wouldn't know how to fight people in Armor." (Armor is common among the sell sword companies.)

So that is how I reconcile those two posts.

Now... I hadn't recalled those quotes from Jamie. So I am definitely reconsidering my position.

[Equilibrium]

@BricksAndSparrowsHow exactly would Drogo beat Trent, would you mind giving me plausible and realistic scenario in details

I would like to hear someone play it out in their head, think about it again and if it seems realisticm put it in writing. 

Nothing fancy, just Drogo strikes there and then Trent does that and few interactions later Drogo wins.

Of course not just you, anyone who can imagine such scenario should write it here.

I would have nothing against being proved wrong, but I do take my sword fight realism seriously.

[Lurid Jester]

@Equilibrium  the problem is that making up even a plausible scenario of this fight is still us just pulling the result out of our asses. I don't know about anyone else but I'm no swordsman, but I could still write a plausible scene where either one of them could end up the victor.  That doesn't mean it's how it would play out of we could somehow recreate this situation in reality. 

Maybe it ends up like Jorah's fight, maybe like Oberyn vs Gregor, maybe Drogo just ducks and weaves until he can stab Trant in the throat.  

This is like the Ninja vs Pirate argument.  It's wholly dependent on the situation... Even if the whole premise is implausible. 

[GyantSpyder]

With Drogo so inadequately equipped for this specific sort of fight, he's got long odds to win. But he is also much stronger and faster, and possibly bigger, and violence tends to be less predictable than people think it is (especially outside the boundary of a formal sport or duel with rules), so I wouldn't count him out.

One possible way Drogo wins is he knocks Meryn Trant over and bashes his head in with a rock or the pommel of his arakh, or just slams it against the ground repeatedly. Another is he breaks his arm or dislocates his shoulder or something. We can assume the helmet and gorget are joined in a way that makes it hard to choke Trant or break his neck, but actually "cracking the nut" of Meryn's armor is still not that important if he can get Meryn immobilized or in extreme pain. He can always eventually just pry open the visor of his helmet and gouge his eyes out.

Most ways Drogo wins involve a takedown of some kind - which means Trant needs to screw up, go off-balance, or just miss in some unfortunate way. It's like 90% that he doesn't do this, maybe higher than 90%.

But if Drogo is close up and Trant is disoriented, surprised, disarmed or immobilized, my guess is going from that to killing him would not be the hardest part of the duel.

[Equilibrium]

1 hour ago, Lurid Jester said:

@Equilibrium  the problem is that making up even a plausible scenario of this fight is still us just pulling the result out of our asses. I don't know about anyone else but I'm no swordsman, but I could still write a plausible scene where either one of them could end up the victor.  That doesn't mean it's how it would play out of we could somehow recreate this situation in reality. 

Maybe it ends up like Jorah's fight, maybe like Oberyn vs Gregor, maybe Drogo just ducks and weaves until he can stab Trant in the throat.  

This is like the Ninja vs Pirate argument.  It's wholly dependent on the situation... Even if the whole premise is implausible. 

Maybe you are right, it was a bad move, it only invites endless arguing over what is plausible, I think there is no such scenario, not counting ones resting on pure chance or dumb luck, but someone would probably disregard my rigorously backed opinions to bang at their own drum.

Just to note, Jorah wasn't in full armor, Oberyn had both reach and thrust ability and even if arakh was useful for stabbing, you can't stab knight in the throat since he has gorget. Drogo can't duck and evade, he isn't fucking Brus Li, he is big guy, great fighter among Dothraki but that doesn't mean much, as all of them lack martial art and discipline, they just slash at each other and faster wins.

And why would common sea robber be able to best highly trained assassin in any scenario besides shooting him from 100m, and even that is questionable, given the accuracy of pirate weapons and situational awareness ninjas were trained to posses.

 

[fenr1s]

The only way for Drogo to win is a quick fight that at best takes less than 30 seconds.

He can not afford to even get hit once since without armor every stroke would cause a serious injury likely ending the fight. The only way to defeat a knight in full plate quickly without an armor piercing weapon is to knock him on his back and kill him through the visor.

Drogo should be faster, stronger and has much better visibility he could dodge an attack then attack the lower leg while his opponent is of balance and bring him down. Then pin down his enemy's swordarm with his bodyweight and finish him off quickly through the visor.

[dornishdragon]

Against the average westerosi knight would be 50-50 

Against Meryn Trant would be more 25-75

[BricksAndSparrows]

5 hours ago, Equilibrium said:

@BricksAndSparrowsHow exactly would Drogo beat Trent, would you mind giving me plausible and realistic scenario in details

The exact same way an armored combatant would kill Trant. Except Drogo would have to do it without being hit. Or without being seriously wounded.

I guess there are two reasons why you wouldn't believe it's possible. If the reason is that you don't think Drogo is a match for Trant, than I can't offer much beside pointing out Drogo's accomplishments as a warrior.

On the other hand, if it is because you don't think it is possible that an unarmored combatant can beat an armored one, than I'll try to give you your scenario.

The Dothraki are known for using whips. Barristan Selmy didn't think much of it's use in a fight until he saw how The Red Lamb used it. So..

    Drogo squares off against Trant, careful to keep his distance. Perhaps he makes a few feints and crosses swords with Trant once or twice. But mostly he circles. Frustrated, Trant rushes Drogo, who jukes passed the armored Knight. The horselord's whip cracks, and with a violent jerk, Ser Meryn 's feet are pulled out from under him, and he is dumped on his face. Seizing the opportunity, Drogo darts forward, his arakh flashing out, hacking at Trants sword hand until the blade is laying in the dirt with it's owner.

At this point, Drogo steps back and allows his 12 year old sister step in and finish Trant off.

Okay, that might be too much, and I'm no GRRM, but is this really so hard to picture? Especially after battles like Bronn vs. Ser Vardis, or Oberyn vs Greor.

We should dispel this silly notion that Drogo wouldn't know how to fight an armored opponent. Armor is not limited to Westeros, and neither are Westerosi knights. The sell sword companies are full of them, and it is not unreasonable to assume that Drogo would have encountered them in the past.

I'm not really that crazy about Drogo, and I don't think he could he could be any Knight. But I think he could beat Trant.

*It also just occured to me that Duncan fought Tommard Heddle unarmored. I know Duncan had a shield, but I think his arm was broken, and Black Tom was not an average knight.

If you just don't think Drogo could take em' that's fair. In general, the unarmored combatant is likely to lose, but Drogo is exceptional.

 

[fenr1s]

50 minutes ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

    Drogo squares off against Trant, careful to keep his distance. Perhaps he makes a few feints and crosses swords with Trant once or twice. But mostly he circles. Frustrated, Trant rushes Drogo, who jukes passed the armored Knight. The horselord's whip cracks, and with a violent jerk, Ser Meryn 's feet are pulled out from under him, and he is dumped on his face. Seizing the opportunity, Drogo darts forward, his arakh flashing out, hacking at Trants sword hand until the blade is laying in the dirt with it's owner.

 

Drogo would have to be extremely quick to get to Trant before he can cut the whip and he also couldn't hack through Trant's gauntlet.

[BricksAndSparrows]

41 minutes ago, fenr1s said:

Drogo would have to be extremely quick to get to Trant before he can cut the whip and he also couldn't hack through Trant's gauntlet.

Some times combatants can't parry a sword... why are you so sure they could parry a whip? And you sure as hell can hack through a guantlet or just smash and smash and smash it at the joint.

*Oh wait. You meant cut the whip off of his feet. The whip can be cut off. It's only purpose was to yank Trants legs out from under him and put him on the ground.

Do you know why Knights put on their armor from the feet up? It's because it's so heavy they'd topple over trying to put on the greaves if they're already armored on their torso. It's heavy. It's bad news for a knight to be on the ground.

Now as for the gauntlet.. There are other things Drogo could do once Trants is down. But keeping with the original details... Drogo doesn't need to hack through gauntlet. He just needs to knock the sword out of his hand. I believe Bronn kicked Ser Vardis' sword out of his hand.

 

[Light a wight tonight]

15 hours ago, Runaway Penguin said:

Bravo (a very good one) might - as his weapon is thrusting so can go for weak points (joints etc.) - plus rapiers were often longer than regular swords (because they can get the same weight into a longer, thinner blade). Even then, he would probably still have at least a buckler and would have to be very good (Syrio vs. Lannisters). Note however that even Syrio lost against a KG - and not the sharpest knife in the drawer either.

Reach and weight can do a lot, too - WWII experience showed that despite rigorous close combat drill of Japanese soldiers, when it came to close combat, US soldiers won more often than not - bigger, stronger, with heavier and longer rifle (whether using bayonet or using it as blunt instrument). Same can be applied to usually well fed and strong (and protected) knights of Westeros with sword with longer reach.

Syrio's final moments are shrouded in mystery. But we do know that his lead-filled stick was cut in two by Trant's sword. I don't see how Trant could have lost to an unarmed, unarmored man but if anyone could, it would be him.

Drogo was huge, fast, and strong, and he was an experienced fighter. We do see that the Dothraki have some defensive technique with their arakhs, so Trant hitting him at will isn't automatic. The smart thing for Drogo to do against an armored man would be to force a corps-a-corps, fling his opponent down, and twist his head off.

[JWittoBeast]

15 hours ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

I believe that Trant would have been better than the average knight. Especially since his personality was so damn lousy, he had to have something that would have impressed Jon Arryn and Robert enough to promote him.

Here is the best way I can describe my impression of Trant: Imagine a NBA basketball player, unremarkable among his peers, and never going to be a star player. But put that player on any neighborhood court (not up against kids or people that never play, but people that play regularly) and he's probably going to win.

I wouldn't call Trant the average knight, but what skill he does have, in my opinion, is no match for Drogo. Especially since I don't buy the whole "Drogo wouldn't know how to fight people in Armor." (Armor is common among the sell sword companies.)

So that is how I reconcile those two posts.

Now... I hadn't recalled those quotes from Jamie. So I am definitely reconsidering my position.

 

I had a theory that the reason why Boros Blount and Meryn got in the KG was because Robert was friends with them.

It's just a theory, but Boros and Meryn are both Stormlanders, so my guess is that they were travelling, drinking and fighting buddies with Robert and they got in because Robert trusted them.

Another thing that reinforces my theory is how Meryn and Boros work together alot, which makes it seem like they known each other personally.

[BricksAndSparrows]

11 hours ago, JWittoBeast said:

 

I had a theory that the reason why Boros Blount and Meryn got in the KG was because Robert was friends with them.

It's just a theory, but Boros and Meryn are both Stormlanders, so my guess is that they were travelling, drinking and fighting buddies with Robert and they got in because Robert trusted them.

Another thing that reinforces my theory is how Meryn and Boros work together alot, which makes it seem like they known each other personally.

I could see Blount being a drinking buddy. Trant not so much. I thought he had distinguished him self at a tournament and won his white cloak that way.

[Equilibrium]

22 hours ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

The exact same way an armored combatant would kill Trant. Except Drogo would have to do it without being hit. Or without being seriously wounded.

I guess there are two reasons why you wouldn't believe it's possible. If the reason is that you don't think Drogo is a match for Trant, than I can't offer much beside pointing out Drogo's accomplishments as a warrior.

On the other hand, if it is because you don't think it is possible that an unarmored combatant can beat an armored one, than I'll try to give you your scenario.

The Dothraki are known for using whips. Barristan Selmy didn't think much of it's use in a fight until he saw how The Red Lamb used it. So..

    Drogo squares off against Trant, careful to keep his distance. Perhaps he makes a few feints and crosses swords with Trant once or twice. But mostly he circles. Frustrated, Trant rushes Drogo, who jukes passed the armored Knight. The horselord's whip cracks, and with a violent jerk, Ser Meryn 's feet are pulled out from under him, and he is dumped on his face. Seizing the opportunity, Drogo darts forward, his arakh flashing out, hacking at Trants sword hand until the blade is laying in the dirt with it's owner.

At this point, Drogo steps back and allows his 12 year old sister step in and finish Trant off.

Okay, that might be too much, and I'm no GRRM, but is this really so hard to picture? Especially after battles like Bronn vs. Ser Vardis, or Oberyn vs Greor.

We should dispel this silly notion that Drogo wouldn't know how to fight an armored opponent. Armor is not limited to Westeros, and neither are Westerosi knights. The sell sword companies are full of them, and it is not unreasonable to assume that Drogo would have encountered them in the past.

I'm not really that crazy about Drogo, and I don't think he could he could be any Knight. But I think he could beat Trant.

*It also just occured to me that Duncan fought Tommard Heddle unarmored. I know Duncan had a shield, but I think his arm was broken, and Black Tom was not an average knight.

If you just don't think Drogo could take em' that's fair. In general, the unarmored combatant is likely to lose, but Drogo is exceptional.

 

It was such a nice post I typed and forum crashed fuck my luck, anyway.

Whip, nice thinking.

Drogo may be great warrior among Dothraki but he certainly isn't like Jaime is, Syrio was or fucking Brus Li was, since Dothraki have no disciplined martial arts, guy who rides around all day or sits and drinks fermented milk can't match people who train few hours a day (average knight does). He could have faced knights, but that would be under different circumstances, mounted and in mass of Dothraki.

Oberyn had reach, thrust and Gregor isn't really tactical fighter, since he is extremely irritable and never had any need for tactic due to strength and size. Bronn fought elderly knight with borrowed sword who stupidly eschew any tactical approach, and still Bronn needed lucky break with a statue to finish a job.

Your scenario makes bunch of assumptions that I find improbable, would Drogo really use such evasive tactic, he is smart enough but would his pride let him to circle around and flee after any clash, Trent on the other hand wouldn't risk trying to bullrush, since he needs only to wait and capitalize on Drogo's next feint. Pulling someones feet under him with a whip is very, very hard, especially if someone isn't running away or seriously off balance. But even if Drogo managed that, man on the floor isn't really helpless if he knows what he is doing and man with the sword is never helpless, Trent would cut a whip, check Drogo's advance then roll over, rise to knees and then either stand up or pounce to attack at next Drogo's advance. 

Turtle knights are a myth, full plate weighted around 20 kg, even less if it was of higher quality. To illustrate a point I frequently run or work out, sit ups, burpees, you name it, with 35kg strapped to myself (25kg vest, 2.5 each wrist and ankle). I even wore full plate, sadly not mine, and it's not that heavy, and pretty comfortable, even when it's not a perfect fit, I didn't ask the guy could I try a kip up in it, but next time. Knights who train couple hours a day in full plate could get on their feet in the time comparable to you and me in tracksuit.

Again, nice thinking with the whip and nicely put explanation, our opinions vary, but it's always nice to have a good discussion.

[JWittoBeast]

3 hours ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

I could see Blount being a drinking buddy. Trant not so much. I thought he had distinguished him self at a tournament and won his white cloak that way.

It still fits in if Trant was a tourny champion. Robert is fond of Tournaments, so he might have met Trant after a tournament and decided that "this guy is alright".

[Ser Snowflake]

I think that Khal Drogo would make short work of most knights. A knight in full plate would be vastly slower than the Khal, allowing him to exploit any weakness. 

 

You don't become Khal by knitting socks, and judging by his braid, he has never lost a fight.  If I was a betting man.....I would throw my money on Khal Drogo.

 

i listen to his motivational speech in AGOT to pump myself up every morning. #comeatmebro