Edric Dayne, Why aren't we talking about him?

[OuttaOldtown]

11 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

I still not see the problem. We are talking about maybe one of the biggest conspiracies in ASOIAF sure people who are included are dedicated enough, after all if someone can learn and be able to teach a foreign language after 12 years I see no problem with learning about a book. I cannot see how the Greens who were their family and the Blackfyres who are not their family, are the same. 

However I do find weird that Leyton and Malora have spent a decade in Hightower.

I do see a problem, I can read religious text and still not understand it well enough to instruct someone on it over the course of more than a decade as Lemore has done with Aegon, imo that shows an intimate knowledge of the faith. Mellario was someone I considered initially but found virtually no evidence that that it's her, nothing in the Dorne chapters led me to think it's her. And I'm not saying greens and Blackfyres are the same, the commonality is they both caused rebellions against Targaryen's with stronger claims, I don't think an alliance is out of the realm of possibility. Certainly not 100% on this, however I've yet to see a reason to be swayed towards someone else above Malora after researching her identity.. 

[canis_lupus]

On 13.7.2016 at 6:28 AM, House Beaudreau said:

Edric Dayne is Lord of Starfall, a Major house of Dorne who happens to be riding with the Brotherhood without Banners and gives Arya some big time testimony in Storm of Swords about Jon snow. 

What I'm getting at is, 1. why do most of the R+L=J theories disregard everything he says to Arya about Jon real mother being Wylla. 2. if the known story was that Ned killed ser Arthur Dayne why would his family call him or allow him to go by Ned. the Daynes must see Ned Stark in some sort of positive light, Why? What did he do for the Daynes besides return the sword Dawn? 

If Wylla is not Jon snow's mother who did she give birth to? and if Jon was in Starfall because Ned brought him there after the tower of Joy, it would have been a short stay, not long enough for anyone to consider Jon and Edric milk brothers. Why would the people of Starfall tell Edric that Wylla is Jon Snows mother? Why tell Edric about Jon at all?   

GRRM created a lineage of house Stark. There was mentioned that a Brandon Stark had a child named Lonnel Snow with a woman called Wyalla. Maybe Ned just remembered the story and used the name. When King Robert asked about the name of Jons mother, Ned seemed really uncomfortable. I think, because he was forced to tell a lie to his friend.

Also GRRM mentioned, that Brandon Stark never fathered a son. It was never said he had no daughter. Maybe little Allyria Dayne is Brandons little girl, so Dayne and Stark are now family. All speculation, I have no idea, but everything is possible.

[Lost Melnibonean]

3 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Cool. I remember reading something like that but I cannot recall the details. If I had to chose I would say that Lemore is Mellario Nymeros Martell of Norvos.

I recall your theory. It is certainly plausible, as is the White Fawn. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

20 hours ago, Hos the Hostage said:

 She might have had one baby shortly before Jon's birth, and another around the time Ned Dayne was born - making her able to breastfeed both Jon and Ned Dayne.

Just to clarify, a woman does not need to have had a second baby to continue being a wetnurse. You can easily maintain lactation once you have had a baby, and indeed this is exactly what professional wet nurses did. you just need a continuous supply of children to nurse, and perhaps when employment is lean you would hand express frequently to keep your supply up. Breastmilk is created on a supply and demand basis. In the initial surge your milk production is primarily hormone driven. But at 3-4 ish months your body switches over to supply and demand, this is why many women experience a feeling of less full breasts around this time and often also stop leaking and feeling the tingly effect of the let down reflex.  So long as there is demand your body will make milk.  So you see Wylla being a professional wet nurse, just like Old Nan was, will have just carried on nursing other women's babies.  In fact it was in her interests to prevent any pregnancies as the hormones involved in the early stages usually cause a dip in supply.  But so long as she is busy in her work the chances of her ovulating frequently are very slim. As so long as you are nursing on demand and through the night your body is most likely to stay in a state of Lactational amenorreah.   

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I recall your theory. It is certainly plausible, as is the White Fawn. 

Personally my favourite Lemore theory is Wenda. 

[House Beaudreau]

6 hours ago, Chib said:

I really want to know more about the Daynes, they're so interesting. Maybe we will see this kid again. 

My guess it that he is on his way back to Dorne but he will turn up supporting Young Aegon in the Stormlands

[Ygrain]

12 hours ago, House Beaudreau said:

This is exactly the point I'm trying to make, because I think Dany was probably lied too by Willem Darry and Viserys about there whereabouts when she was a child. I think it makes sense for them to be in Dorne with the Lemon trees so that Oberyn Martell could meet with Ser Willem Darry and sign the Secret marriage pact and then they flee across the Narrow sea. 

Except that the pact was signed by the Sealord of Braavos as a witness, as well. Why would the Sealord bother to travel to Dorne? Why invite him in the first place?

6 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I am actually genuinely pretty disgusted by this post. It plays into just about every gross myth about male sexuality there is. That; what, he just wouldn't be capable of restraining himself if there was an attractive woman about?  That Ashara MUST have been goo goo gaga over him, just because Cersei & Lyanna both fancied him and found his songs moving. What is that like? one of those cheesy Lynx adverts which shows all the girls running hysterically after the lad after he sprays himself? Why is it not unreasonable to assume he played the field? we have zero in text hints that he was a cad. As far as we are given any clues in text his desire for Lyanna is the only time he looked at another woman. As much as his and Elia's marriage was one of fondness and duty not passion. We have never been given any impression at all that he put it about and was copying his Da and knocking off his wife's handmaidens. Your implying that if a woman "throws herself" at a man he has no capacity to resist. That is just disgusting, and you do men in general a great disservice to imply that they have no control over their dicks. Cliche'd and sexist. I'm literally shaking my head at the idea that someone has really said of course he was knocking her off she was good looking and he had the opportunity. As though men have zero capacity to say no and women are unable to control themselves around good looking men. 

Maybe next time I walk past an attractive guy in the street my knickers will just fall off in response hey?  And I'd best watch myself around my friends husbands as they probably won't be able to help jumping my bones, I am an attractive woman after all. And a lot of them are musicians and after all we all know that if a woman likes your music her pants will automatically drop off.  Best wear my chastity belt tonight!!!!

Yeah. Sounds exactly like the type of guy whom Barristan would describe as "dutiful". Dutifully couldn't resist, I guess.

2 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Personally my favourite Lemore theory is Wenda. 

Mine too :-)

[tugela]

7 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I am actually genuinely pretty disgusted by this post. It plays into just about every gross myth about male sexuality there is. That; what, he just wouldn't be capable of restraining himself if there was an attractive woman about?  That Ashara MUST have been goo goo gaga over him, just because Cersei & Lyanna both fancied him and found his songs moving. What is that like? one of those cheesy Lynx adverts which shows all the girls running hysterically after the lad after he sprays himself? Why is it not unreasonable to assume he played the field? we have zero in text hints that he was a cad. As far as we are given any clues in text his desire for Lyanna is the only time he looked at another woman. As much as his and Elia's marriage was one of fondness and duty not passion. We have never been given any impression at all that he put it about and was copying his Da and knocking off his wife's handmaidens. Your implying that if a woman "throws herself" at a man he has no capacity to resist. That is just disgusting, and you do men in general a great disservice to imply that they have no control over their dicks. Cliche'd and sexist. I'm literally shaking my head at the idea that someone has really said of course he was knocking her off she was good looking and he had the opportunity. As though men have zero capacity to say no and women are unable to control themselves around good looking men. 

Maybe next time I walk past an attractive guy in the street my knickers will just fall off in response hey?  And I'd best watch myself around my friends husbands as they probably won't be able to help jumping my bones, I am an attractive woman after all. And a lot of them are musicians and after all we all know that if a woman likes your music her pants will automatically drop off.  Best wear my chastity belt tonight!!!!

Whether you like it or not, that is how the books describe him. And that is how things work in real life for the most part as well. Men who are good looking, charismatic, rich, talented and have worldly power are constantly the focus of female amorous intention, just like their female counterparts are. Rhaegar was all of those things put together. He would get to pick and choose who he wanted to be with, and he would have very little trouble getting their cooperation for the most part.

Ashara sounds like the same sort of girl as Lyanna, and we know Lyanna reacted that way, so it is not a stretch to think that Ashara would as well.

Lyanna is the only one he ran off with, that we know about. There would have been others, discretely, there always are with people in that sort of position and those attributes. You just don't get to hear about them. If he was that "in control of his dick" as you phrase it, he would not have endangered the crown by doing such as rash move as he did. Clearly he is NOT in control and acted on impulse rather than reason.

[LordPathera]

2 minutes ago, tugela said:

Whether you like it or not, that is how the books describe him. And that is how things work in real life for the most part as well. Men who are good looking, charismatic, rich, talented and have worldly power are constantly the focus of female amorous intention, just like their female counterparts are. Rhaegar was all of those things put together. He would get to pick and choose who he wanted to be with, and he would have very little trouble getting their cooperation for the most part.

Ashara sounds like the same sort of girl as Lyanna, and we know Lyanna reacted that way, so it is not a stretch to think that Ashara would as well.

Lyanna is the only one he ran off with, that we know about. There would have been others, discretely, there always are with people in that sort of position and those attributes. You just don't get to hear about them. If he was that "in control of his dick" as you phrase it, he would not have endangered the crown by doing such as rash move as he did. Clearly he is NOT in control and acted on impulse rather than reason.

And how do you know that Rhaegar acted while "controlled by his dick" rather than trying to fulfill the "Prince that was Promised" prophecy?

Even Ned Stark highly doubts that Rhaegar would ever visit a brothel. A man who lets his passions and lusts get the better of him is a more accurate description of Robert Baratheon than Rhaegar.

[OuttaOldtown]

3 minutes ago, LordPathera said:

And how do you know that Rhaegar acted while "controlled by his dick" rather than trying to fulfill the "Prince that was Promised" prophecy?

Even Ned Stark highly doubts that Rhaegar would ever visit a brothel. A man who lets his passions and lusts get the better of him is a more accurate description of Robert Baratheon than Rhaegar.

Exactly, it's not how the book describes him. The situation with Lyanna is the only case of him showing any interest in woman. Based on Cersei's opinion of him it appears he couldn't swooned any woman, yet he doesn't seem interested in being like Robert and Aegon IV. Which is exactly why I think the case with Lyanna is  driven by prophecy, not his dick..

[tugela]

14 hours ago, House Beaudreau said:

Very True, Viserys was likely there when Dany was born on Dragonstone meaning Rhaella gave birth too her. I believe this. but it doesn't solve the Lemon tree problem. 

. 

Actually, no. It was convention in medieval times for pregnant women to go into confinement at the end of pregnancy and for some time after birth. During this period they would literally be locked in their chambers and tended to only by female servants. Men and children were not allowed in. So Viserys would probably not know too much about what went on in the birthing chambers. He would have known that Rhaella was pregnant of course, but the last time he would have seen her would be a month or two before the birth. And he would not have seen the baby afterwards for quite a while either. Plus, he was a small child and a prince at the time and would have neither understood or cared about what was going on. he would have been preoccupied with his toys.

Using Viserys as a source for what happened is therefor problematic, because we can expect him to be an unreliable witness with poor information due to the circumstances.

[tugela]

7 minutes ago, LordPathera said:

And how do you know that Rhaegar acted while "controlled by his dick" rather than trying to fulfill the "Prince that was Promised" prophecy?

Even Ned Stark highly doubts that Rhaegar would ever visit a brothel. A man who lets his passions and lusts get the better of him is a more accurate description of Robert Baratheon than Rhaegar.

And yet, he did let his passions and lusts get the better of him. Which means that the opinions people have about him are wrong, or sanitized out of respect. Rhaegar was more discrete and serious than Robert, but that does not mean that he was different when it came to women. He may not have frequented brothels, but highborn lovers was clearly OK.

As Roose said to Ramsey, you can be as big a bastard as you want, provided you are discrete about it. Roose didn't care about Ramsey's excesses as such, because he himself was not above excesses. What he cared about was Ramsey's lack of discretion.

You may argue that he was trying to fulfill the "Prince that was promised" prophecy, but we know from Aemon that he thought Aegon was that prince. If he was trying to get a third child to make three heads for the dragon, why would he just stop at Lyanna? There are many other girls who would have been suitable as well, not the least of which would be Ashara.

[OuttaOldtown]

18 minutes ago, tugela said:

And yet, he did let his passions and lusts get the better of him. Which means that the opinions people have about him are wrong, or sanitized out of respect. Rhaegar was more discrete and serious than Robert, but that does not mean that he was different when it came to women. He may not have frequented brothels, but highborn lovers was clearly OK.

As Roose said to Ramsey, you can be as big a bastard as you want, provided you are discrete about it. Roose didn't care about Ramsey's excesses as such, because he himself was not above excesses. What he cared about was Ramsey's lack of discretion.

You may argue that he was trying to fulfill the "Prince that was promised" prophecy, but we know from Aemon that he thought Aegon was that prince. If he was trying to get a third child to make three heads for the dragon, why would he just stop at Lyanna? There are many other girls who would have been suitable as well, not the least of which would be Ashara.

Produce quotes that links Rhaegar to Ashara, I mean from the books, not from the ones you've created in your mind..

[tugela]

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

Except that the pact was signed by the Sealord of Braavos as a witness, as well. Why would the Sealord bother to travel to Dorne? Why invite him in the first place?

Yeah. Sounds exactly like the type of guy whom Barristan would describe as "dutiful". Dutifully couldn't resist, I guess.

Mine too :-)

Because the pact does not mention Daenerys at all. It is an agreement to marry Viserys to Arianne, according to Ser Barristan. He says this directly to Quentyn in chapter 59. Everyone who signed the pact is dead, so who is to say if it is real and not a forgery. More importantly the absence of any mention of Daenerys would be consistent with her not being in the picture at the time. It implies that Viserys was in Bravos under the Sealord's protection, but Daenaerys may not have been, and may not have even been "Daenerys" at the time.

 

[tugela]

7 hours ago, canis_lupus said:

GRRM created a lineage of house Stark. There was mentioned that a Brandon Stark had a child named Lonnel Snow with a woman called Wyalla. Maybe Ned just remembered the story and used the name. When King Robert asked about the name of Jons mother, Ned seemed really uncomfortable. I think, because he was forced to tell a lie to his friend.

Also GRRM mentioned, that Brandon Stark never fathered a son. It was never said he had no daughter. Maybe little Allyria Dayne is Brandons little girl, so Dayne and Stark are now family. All speculation, I have no idea, but everything is possible.

Ned was uncomfortable talking about it because Robert was fishing too close to his treason.

It was actually Robert who mention Wylla as the mother, Ned confirmed it reluctantly.

So there probably was a story making the rounds that Jon Snow was Wylla's child, most likely put out by the Daynes since Edric also mentions her, and Robert came to hear of it. IMO it was Robert testing Ned, he may have his suspicions as well.

[tugela]

57 minutes ago, OuttaOldtown said:

Produce quotes that links Rhaegar to Ashara, I mean from the books, not from the ones you've created in your mind..

You do know that Ashara was Elia's lady in waiting, and consequently she would have had extensive interactions with Rhaegar? She knew him very well.

We also know that Ashara was in Starfall after ToJ. Which means that she has to have been sent away and dismissed from service before the war broke out (otherwise it would have been far to dangerous for a high born woman to travel). That is too early for her to have been pregnant since we know her child was born at around the same time as ToJ. The only other reasons that might have happened would be betrothal or she was caught messing around with Rhaegar, most likely the latter.

Since Rhaegar was holding Lyanna pretty close to Starfall, their liason would have continued around that time and generated the baby in the right window.

[Lost Melnibonean]

And that's why nobody's talking about Edric Dayne, cause Daenerys and lemons. 

[OuttaOldtown]

2 minutes ago, tugela said:

You do know that Ashara was Elia's lady in waiting, and consequently she would have had extensive interactions with Rhaegar?

That's true, but authors like to use clues. There's been five books without mentioning any connection between the two. The arc of her story can only be connected to a Stark, the issue I have with Ned being in love with her as some suggest is he never thinks of her, not once. She is brought up in a Cat chapter and he wants nothing to do with the topic. Cat thinks to herself that he must've loved Jon's mother, whoever she was. The only woman Ned outright thinks about loving is none other than his sister Lyanna. So Cat was right, but not about it being Ashara, but that he loved Jon's mother..

[tugela]

2 minutes ago, OuttaOldtown said:

That's true, but authors like to use clues. There's been five books without mentioning any connection between the two. The arc of her story can only be connected to a Stark, the issue I have with Ned being in love with her as some suggest is he never thinks of her, not once. She is brought up in a Cat chapter and he wants nothing to do with the topic. Cat thinks to herself that he must've loved Jon's mother, whoever she was. The only woman Ned outright thinks about loving is none other than his sister Lyanna. So Cat was right, but not about it being Ashara, but that he loved Jon's mother..

There is a clue. Barristan says Daenerys looks just like Ashara, so much so that he thinks she could be a daughter. Daenerys also has Targaryen hair, and a Targaryen name. There are only so many ways to get that combination (only one actually).

So the clues are there, if people care to look.

[OuttaOldtown]

Just now, tugela said:

There is a clue. Barristan says Daenerys looks just like Ashara, so much so that he thinks she could be a daughter. Daenerys also has Targaryen hair, and a Targaryen name. There are only so many ways to get that combination (only one actually).

So the clues are there, if people care to look.

While ignoring the fact that all Targs born of  Makkar and Dyanna would have Dayne blood. She is biologically equivalent to Daenerys's grandmother since you have two generations of incest following Aegon V. Lynesse Hightower is described as looking more like Dany than Ashara, and Barriston never says 'just like', their eyes, sane can be said of plenty of women in Lys and at whorehouses all throughout Planetos..