Dorne, Visenya Targaryen, and Headaches

[Widowmaker94]

Re-reading this book for the fifth time. The third with a very critical eye for bias and other such things. Reading between the lines. I'm wondering if perhaps the entire First Dornish War section was a fabrication. That's the only way it makes any sense to me.

The Yronwoods not selling out the Martells. Aegon pulling out when by all indications he was winning the war. Dorne's ability to function as a nation afterwards when three years of dragonfire and war should have starved it out and crippled it entirely.

Sunspear's remaining intact and Aegon not burning the Martell seat to the ground. It just doesn't make sense to me how nobody tried to collect the bounty placed on the heads of the Martells... and still... Why their non-Rhoynish Vassals did not sell them out to Aegon after the Martells had cost them so much by not bending the knee.

For some reason (Aside from the Blackfyre Rebellions) it seems like every time Dorne was involved in anything it somehow wasn't crippled by infighting. None of the opportunism that's seen in literally every other kingdom seems to touch Dorne.They're not only the single kingdom to resist the Targaryens, but they also manage to off a dragon and then dictate terms. They capture and humiliate Orys Baratheon and his entire army. The Red Wedding earns the Freys mistrust by their own allies, who hate their guts for breaching the customs of hospitality. When the Martells murder Daeron Targaryen under a flag of truce, they earn themselves a peace treaty and political marriages.

The issue here is that we're not talking about a more-or-less unified region (Hell, Dorne has three distinct ethnic groups) in terms of culture, political background and ethnicity, but a place where the Martells supposedly face competition from vassals like the Yronwoods.

And they still remain absolutely, selflessly loyal to the Martells after the military superiority of the Iron Throne is displayed in very clear terms, and when a lot of them have so much to gain from betraying the Martells. The Durrandon vassals betrayed Argella after Argilac died, the Riverlords led a revolt against their Ironborn rulers, and so on. During the First Dornish War, the Dornishmen have no internal dissent, no attempts from any of the Martell vassals to seize power by betraying their lieges, even when they're outright offered a reward for it.

That's like Robb Stark getting his shit fucked up, having a lot of the North be under invasion with the crown offering a large reward for his head, and Roose Bolton being loyal to the point where even a Velaryon or Manderly would go 'Woah, slow down with the loyalty stuff, mate'.

The fact that after Dorne's military was shattered twice in a row by Daeron, they murder him under a banner of surrender, and get a royal marriage AND more autonomy than any of the other kingdoms beggars belief.

The irony is that Dorne was more believable before the 'facts' were put in place. 

My second biggest quibble is the fact that there were no portraits of Visenya herself, yet there were ones of Forrest fucking Frey and Elmo Tully. Even Rhaenys has to share with the Yellow Toad. This wouldn't be such a problem if the artist that did the main Aegon picture were allowed to do Visenya and Rhaenys as well. I'd pay for it out of pocket. But copyright and all that.

 

In conclusion? Maester Yandel is a sexist shit who has a poor grasp of history and so fabricated the Dornish sections wholecloth.

 

Well, it's either that... Or maybe George had to repeatedly bend over backwards for them not to be wiped out long before the start of the series.

[Guest jasonothegreat]

14 minutes ago, Widowmaker94 said:

 

• Sunspear's remaining intact and Aegon not burning the Martell seat to the ground. It just doesn't make sense to me how nobody tried to collect the bounty placed on the heads of the Martells... and still... Why their non-Rhoynish Vassals did not sell them out to Aegon after the Martells had cost them so much by not bending the knee.
• For some reason (Aside from the Blackfyre Rebellions) it seems like every time Dorne was involved in anything it somehow wasn't crippled by infighting. None of the opportunism that's seen in literally every other kingdom seems to touch Dorne.They're not only the single kingdom to resist the Targaryens, but they also manage to off a dragon and then dictate terms. They capture and humiliate Orys Baratheon and his entire army. The Red Wedding earns the Freys mistrust by their own allies, who hate their guts for breaching the customs of hospitality. When the Martells murder Daeron Targaryen under a flag of truce, they earn themselves a peace treaty and political marriages.

 

• And they still remain absolutely, selflessly loyal to the Martells after the military superiority of the Iron Throne is displayed in very clear terms, and when a lot of them have so much to gain from betraying the Martells. The Durrandon vassals betrayed Argella after Argilac died, the Riverlords led a revolt against their Ironborn rulers, and so on. During the First Dornish War, the Dornishmen have no internal dissent, no attempts from any of the Martell vassals to seize power by betraying their lieges, even when they're outright offered a reward for it.

 

• The fact that after Dorne's military was shattered twice in a row by Daeron, they murder him under a banner of surrender, and get a royal marriage AND more autonomy than any of the other kingdoms beggars belief.

 

 

• In conclusion? Maester Yandel is a sexist shit who has a poor grasp of history and so fabricated the Dornish sections wholecloth.

1. They did attempt to burn Sunspear, or at least I thought that was implied with Rhaenys second "trip" to Sunspear, and she died for it. As well for the reasons why None of the big vassals turned against the Martells was probably because their independence meant a lot to all of them, and the Yronwoods would be no closer to becoming Kings if they were a vassal of a vassal. they valued their independence and did not wish to bow to anyone, the Dornish are stubborn folk.

2. While you are right that it is odd that none of the other Vassals rose against the Martells during other wars I would believe that is because of circumstance. Since the Rule of Daeron the good there has been many wars but, in terms of the huge civil wars that usually plague Westeros, there have only been 4: The First Blackfyre rebellion (Where the Yronwoods fractured), The War of the Ninepenny Kings (No fracture), Robert's Rebellion (No Fracture) and the War of Five Kings (Neutral stance). Of these 4 major wars we see first the fracture of the Yronwoods as you said, then the War of the Ninepenny King which was against an invading hostile force of pirates and mercenaries, Robert's Rebellion, Which the Martells were oathbound to rise with the Targaryens, while theat must have led to the Dornish vassals being fed the Targ Propaganda of Rhaegar rescuing Lyanna for Love from the cruel Robert. then in the War of Five Kings they were neutral. So of these 4 major wars, only 3 of them could see a reason to fracture, one did have Dorne Fracture while the other they were neutral, so in the end. They Only were truly united under a good Cause in one war.  Whereas if we look at the Starks and the North they always fought united, they only fractured at the Red Wedding, and they were a part of the Empire for 100 years longer and they fought in 7 major wars. 

3. While I do find it odd that none of the vassals fractured off after the defeats they stilled had an army to fight and their opponents were suffering great attrition and they probably knew if they just waited it out their enemies would either be forced to return home or die. As I said, they probably didn't like being vassals anyway so why switch Kings?  

Side Note on your point on the Freys, The Freys were always looked down on. So They just digged their hole deeper while when the Dornish did it, it made them look more ruthless and powerful and do anything to stay in power.

 

4. of Course Maester Yandel is Sexist he is a man in a medieval setting the fact that he brought Visenya to any acclaim with her sword showed he was probably less sexist than other (Such as Randyll Tarly who claimed Brienne's skill was only her Valyrian Blade.)  I do Believe that Maester Yandel or His sources did upjump the Dornish Army to make it look as though Past Kings' defeat were because of the Dornish roguish nature and deception rather than the faults of their own Kings, I doubt that the entire Dornish war was a fabrication as that just seems silly and out of place in the world, though it does fit with the whole Citadel illuminate theory that I never really payed much attention too, though now I might just read into it.

[SeanF]

The Dornish clearly had a fanatical brand of patriotism, that led them to hold out against a much larger neighbour, notwithstanding the harm that neighbour caused them.

There's nothing inherently unlikely about this.  The Scots did the same with the English.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

On 13-7-2016 at 10:56 PM, Widowmaker94 said:

My second biggest quibble is the fact that there were no portraits of Visenya herself, yet there were ones of Forrest fucking Frey and Elmo Tully. Even Rhaenys has to share with the Yellow Toad. This wouldn't be such a problem if the artist that did the main Aegon picture were allowed to do Visenya and Rhaenys as well. I'd pay for it out of pocket. But copyright and all that.

The art in the book is out-of-universe, so it doesn't appear in Yandel's in-universe work.

 

If it helps, two beautiful images (Visenya with her siblings and Visenya alone) of Visenya right here  

[Raisin' Bran]

On ‎7‎/‎13‎/‎2016 at 1:56 PM, Widowmaker94 said:

The fact that after Dorne's military was shattered twice in a row by Daeron, they murder him under a banner of surrender, and get a royal marriage AND more autonomy than any of the other kingdoms beggars belief.

I am of the belief that despite the larger army and provisions, the Targ leaders just were sick of the fighting, Baelor was now king, and settled so that all of Westeros south of the Wall fell under the rule of the Iron Throne.

Dorne just happened to be the last hold out. When one person's/organization's help stands between you and your goal, they get to dictate terms.

It reminds me of "Ocean's 13", where Danny and the gang need like 15 million to get a drill and they go to Terry Benedict and he says since his is "last money in, first money out" and he asks for double on his investment because Terry knew that he could dictate the terms of the partnership. And a partnership is really how the relationship between the Targs and the Martells played out for the next 100 years.

[Widowmaker94]

12 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

The art in the book is out-of-universe, so it doesn't appear in Yandel's in-universe work.

 

If it helps, two beautiful images (Visenya with her siblings and Visenya alone) of Visenya right here  

I apologize for all the cursing in my post. I was rather upset with a number of things at the time. More than a few were a result of Real Life Drama Llama issues.

 

It does help, I have them myself, but they always help. Visenya is Best Sister-wife. Aegon is obviously Visenya with a knob. Probably why they hated each other. Too similar.:lol: I just wish I could get amok to do another art of Visenya. He's busy, so I was unable to commission anything. There's a number of characters I'd dearly want commissioned.:) Then see if GRRM likes the pictures, and then if he does they could be put on the wiki.

 

3 hours ago, Raisin(g) Bran 2 Greenseer said:

I am of the belief that despite the larger army and provisions, the Targ leaders just were sick of the fighting, Baelor was now king, and settled so that all of Westeros south of the Wall fell under the rule of the Iron Throne.

Dorne just happened to be the last hold out. When one person's/organization's help stands between you and your goal, they get to dictate terms.

It reminds me of "Ocean's 13", where Danny and the gang need like 15 million to get a drill and they go to Terry Benedict and he says since his is "last money in, first money out" and he asks for double on his investment because Terry knew that he could dictate the terms of the partnership. And a partnership is really how the relationship between the Targs and the Martells played out for the next 100 years.

What I'm saying is that with the Martells is that the Yronwoods should have backstabbed them anyway. I suppose I preferred things better back when the world book didn't elaborate on the Dornish wars. I could think that maybe Daeron got hit by a lucky arrow or something else. And that other things in the First Conquest like the Targs writing it off as too much effort for too little gain. But by giving them free murders of a King, severe mistreatment of Baelor, the removal of hands of an entire army, and other shit? I just find it too unbelievable. The Daynes are cool. The whole thing illuminates why the Blackfyre Rebellions were far from a black and white affair. Of course... I'm a Daemon fangirl.

[Greywater-Watch]

Ignoring the flag of truce appears to me not as grave as breaking the guest right.

The flag of truce is more a military agreement, breaking it is dishonourable. But it is not as much an insult to god and men as murdering someone who enjoys the guest right.

[TWR]

I, against my brothers. I and my brothers against my cousins. I and my brothers and my cousins against the world.- Bedouin saying

 

I've always viewed Dorne as being Arabic/Persian inspired & this saying illustrates every conflict Dorne has been in. The Yronwoods may not like the Martells, but a Dornishman you hate is still preferable to a non-Dornishman you like