Jon and Rhaegar comparison- in songs, in blood, in tragedy

[dornishdame]

19 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

How have we not talked about rubies in this thread???

Rhaegar and his rubies.

1. "My queen," the big man said slowly, "all you say is true. But Rhaegar lost on the Trident. He lost the battle, he lost the war, he lost the kingdom, and he lost his life. His blood swirled downriver with the rubies from his breastplate,
2. The day had been windy when he said farewell to Rhaegar, in the yard of the Red Keep. The prince had donned his night-black armor, with the three-headed dragon picked out in rubies on his breastplate.
3. George said in a SSM that Rhaegar's body was burned in the traditional way of the Targaryen's. As of right now, without actual book confirmation, we have to believe that is what happened to Rhaegar's body.

Jon and his rubies.

1. Jon was in the yard when he was stabbed... and his ruby blood flowed.
2. Mel and her rubies and the Mance situation later.
3. Qhorin and his ruby necklace:
   • Even when Ghost's teeth closed savagely around the ranger's calf, somehow Qhorin kept his feet. But in that instant, as he twisted, the opening was there. Jon planted and pivoted. The ranger was leaning away, and for an instant it seemed that Jon's slash had not touched him. Then a string of red tears appeared across the big man's throat, bright as a ruby necklace, and the blood gushed out of him, and Qhorin Halfhand fell.
4. Longclaw:

   • In saving Lord Commander Jeor Mormont's life from a wight attack at Castle Black, Jon Snow sets a fire that damages Longclaw's hilt, melting silver on the bear's head pommel and burning the crossguard and grip.

     After finding the blade in the ashes of his bedchamber, Jeor has a stonecarving builder of the Night's Watch replace the hilt with one capped by a snarling wolf's head of pale stone with chips of garnet for the eyes to reflect Jon's Stark heritage. It is also weighted with lead to give better balance. Jeor gives the blade to Jon, who notes the appropriateness of a bastard wielding a bastard sword.

     • ***Melting silver on the bear's head could be a symbol of a healing anointment? The silver link in the maester's chain is for healing and medicine. There is also a link for lead, but I cannot find what it means, however, the lead in the sword is for balance... as in ice and fire? As in Targ and Stark?

     • ***The sword skinchanged from a bear to a wolf. And it is made of white stone. Could this be a reference to the "waking a dragon from stone" prophecy??? Could a funeral pyre for Jon, with Longclaw in the pyre, cause the stone to "reform" or be remade into a dragon by another stone mason, therefore waking a dragon from stone??? Mormont talks of making the bastard sword anew because of a fire. And Mormont tells Jon to take it, just like Jon has to take on the responsibility given to him when the NW brothers elected him the new LC.

       • AGOT: "The fire melted the silver off the pommel and burnt the crossguard and grip. Well, dry leather and old wood, what could you expect? The blade, now … you'd need a fire a hundred times as hot to harm the blade." Mormont shoved the scabbard across the rough oak planks. "I had the rest made anew. Take it."

     • "chips of garnet for the eyes to reflect Jon's Stark heritage. " Could this be a reference to Jon's Targaryen heritage and not the Stark heritage. Rhaegar is a red dragon and the Stark colors are grey and white. So the garnet rubies for heritage fits more with the Targ bloodline of Jon's. Later Jon describes Ghost's eyes as this, and we know Ghost is of the old gods as Jon identifies himself as later in ADWD:

       • AGOT: "Ghost was curled up asleep beside the door, but he lifted his head at the sound of Jon's boots. The direwolf's red eyes were darker than garnets and wiser than men. Jon knelt, scratched his ear, and showed him the pommel of the sword. "Look. It's you."

Discuss

Have to say that I am in agreement with your disbelief that we have yet to discuss this.  Firstly, I would add in this quote from Feast:

Meribald performed the customary courtesies before seating himself upon the settle. Unlike Septon Narbert, the Elder Brother did not seem dismayed by Brienne's sex, but his smile did flicker and fade when the septon told him why she and Ser Hyle had come. "I see," was all he said, before he turned away with, "You must be thirsty. Please, have some of our sweet cider to wash the dust of travel from your throats." He poured for them himself. The cups were carved from driftwood too, no two the same. When Brienne complimented them, he said, "My lady is too kind. All we do is cut and polish the wood. We are blessed here. Where the river meets the bay, the currents and the tides wrestle one against the other, and many strange and wondrous things are pushed toward us, to wash up on our shores. Driftwood is the least of it. We have found silver cups and iron pots, sacks of wool and bolts of silk, rusted helms and shining swords . . . aye, and rubies."

That interested Ser Hyle. "Rhaegar's rubies?"

"It may be. Who can say? The battle was long leagues from here, but the river is tireless and patient. Six have been found. We are all waiting for the seventh." (Brienne VI in A Feast for Crows)

I won't spend time debating who the seven rubies represent; I don't entirely know that they do each represent a specific person - but I do think that the fact that one is missing is significant.  And that the missing ruby represents Jon himself.  If we look at the Qhorin Halfhand example of the use of the phrase "ruby necklace" that you have quoted, that necklace is caused by blood.  So it is as much Rhaegar's "blood", in a sense, his son, that is 'missing' - because Jon does not know that he is of Rhaegar's blood and is not recognized in that way. And that also feeds in to the quote you included from Jorah, which alluded to an intertwining of Rhaegar's blood and rubies floating downstream. 

Sidebar: perhaps there were seven rubies not to represent seven people, but because seven is deemed such a significant number in Westeros among those who follow the Faith, and it would be normal for seven of anything to be chosen out of respect for the gods? Who knows!

As for Ghost's eyes - I mentioned in my essay on the use of musical language and song etc in Jon's chapters, that both strands of Jon's heritage were united in the howling of the wolves, which is compared more than once to song. I wonder if perhaps we can see more of Jon's Stark heritage and Jon's Targaryen heritage being referenced here.  

"You girls do as you please," Rast said, "but if Thorne sends me against Lady Piggy, I'm going to slice me off a rasher of bacon." He laughed in Jon's face and left them there.

Hours later, as the castle slept, three of them paid a call on his cell. Grenn held his arms while Pyp sat on his legs. Jon could hear Rast's rapid breathing as Ghost leapt onto his chest. The direwolf's eyes burned red as embers as his teeth nipped lightly at the soft skin of the boy's throat, just enough to draw blood. "Remember, we know where you sleep," Jon said softly.  (Jon IV in A Game of Thrones)

In this, we have a reference again to blood (and to a throat - Qhorin had a ruby necklace to demonstrate the slashing of his throat, and Melisandre wears a ruby at her throat) - and Jon thinks that Ghost's eyes "burned red as embers".  Embers are essentially the remains of a fire - as Jon is the remains, or "embers" of Rhaegar's direct line as his only surviving child. 

Atop the stones of the ringwall, Ghost hunched with white fur bristling. He made no sound, but his dark red eyes spoke blood. The Lord of Bones moved his hand slowly away from his sword, backed off a step, and left them with a curse. (Jon II in A Storm of Swords)

This time, Jon's comparison is of blood.  Which takes us back to a point I briefly mentioned in my musical essay - embers+blood = fire+blood, the words of House Targaryen.  So, Ghost's eyes are representative of both his Stark heritage (the link to the Old Gods) and his Targaryen heritage (the fact that Jon refers to them in fiery and bloody terms).

Now, to bring in the concept of rubies - as you stated, Mormont has garnets purchased to represent Ghost's eyes in the pommel of Longclaw.  Rubies and garnets are often mistaken for one another, but are not the same thing.  Rubies are precious stones, garnets seen as a cheap imitation.  It is garnets that are used in Longclaw's pommel; Longclaw is a bastard sword wielded by a bastard - something that others see as appropriate, as well as Jon himself as you noted:

Jon dismounted. Slung across his back in a black leather shoulder sheath was Longclaw, the hand-and-a-half bastard blade the Old Bear had given him for saving his life. A bastard sword for a bastard, the men joked. The hilt had been fashioned new for him, adorned with a wolf's-head pommel in pale stone, but the blade itself was Valyrian steel, old and light and deadly sharp. (Jon II in A Clash of Kings)

And yet.........perhaps we can compare the use of garnets rather than rubies to that of Jon's identity as the Bastard of Winterfell over that of the son of Rhaegar Targaryen.  The Bastard of Winterfell is essentially the lesser of the two identities, just as garnets are the lesser of the two stones; Rhaegar wears rubies, but because of that missing blood-knowledge I mentioned above, Jon must wear garnets. His current identity is a cheap imitation of who he really is.  And that link to Ghost through Longclaw again goes back to what I have said before about the two strands of Jon's heritage often coming together.  I could be looking into this far too much, but it was a passing thought that seems to have ended up being a longer one!

20 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

***The sword skinchanged from a bear to a wolf. And it is made of white stone. Could this be a reference to the "waking a dragon from stone" prophecy??? Could a funeral pyre for Jon, with Longclaw in the pyre, cause the stone to "reform" or be remade into a dragon by another stone mason, therefore waking a dragon from stone??? Mormont talks of making the bastard sword anew because of a fire. And Mormont tells Jon to take it, just like Jon has to take on the responsibility given to him when the NW brothers elected him the new LC.

As to the prophecy regarding the waking of dragons from stone, I definitely think this means Jon rather than the dragons Daenerys hatches in the Dothraki Sea.  If we look back at other prophecies in this world that deal with dragons, they deal not with the literal but the metaphorical - Targaryens.  In The Hedge Knight and The Mystery Knight we encounter prophecies relating to the death and birth of a dragon; on both occasions, these prophecies relate to men of Targaryen, or "dragon", blood.  Even in the main series, when the Ghost of High Heart speaks of things now happening and to come, she uses heraldry and symbolism - such as her reference to Catelyn as a woman who was a fish.  Therefore, I think that Jon will be the dragon that is woken from stone.   

"Pyp says that Lady Melisandre means to give him to the flames, to work some sorcery."

"Pyp should learn to hold his tongue. I have heard the same from others. King's blood, to wake a dragon. Where Melisandre thinks to find a sleeping dragon, no one is quite sure. It's nonsense. Mance's blood is no more royal than mine own. He has never worn a crown nor sat a throne. He's a brigand, nothing more. There's no power in brigand's blood."

The raven looked up from the floor. "Blood," it screamed. (Samwell I in A Feast for Crows)

Jon is of royal blood - and this is somehow needed to wake a dragon.  Perhaps that is because it is dragon blood that is required; in Westeros, dragon blood and royal blood would be one and the same.  Robert's vague claim to the Iron Throne came through his Targaryen grandmother, so in a sense he and his brothers and any blood of theirs all share droplets of dragon blood.  And Melisandre will not need to find a sleeping dragon - one will be presented to her; Jon.  And Jon - you have never worn a crown nor sat a throne, but your blood is royal!!

20 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

 

1. Jon was in the yard when he was stabbed... and his ruby blood flowed.

 

As a member of the NIght's Watch, Jon would have been wearing black at the time of his stabbing. Perhaps it would also be interesting to look at Jon's links to red and black, the colors of House Targaryen - 

Ser Jaime Lannister was twin to Queen Cersei; tall and golden, with flashing green eyes and a smile that cut like a knife. He wore crimson silk, high black boots, a black satin cloak. On the breast of his tunic, the lion of his House was embroidered in gold thread, roaring its defiance. They called him the Lion of Lannister to his face and whispered "Kingslayer" behind his back.

Jon found it hard to look away from him. This is what a king should look like, he thought to himself as the man passed. (Jon I in A Game of Thrones)

Yes, I know that this quote may be a reference to the abandonment of the plot that saw Jaime become king, and I know that the golden lion of Lannister is mentioned as being embroidered on Jaime's cloak, BUT I do find it interesting that in his very first chapter, Jon's idea of what a king should look like is linked to red and black - the colors of his biological father's House. 

Can a bird hate? Jon had slain the wilding Orell, but some part of the man remained within the eagle. The golden eyes looked out on him with cold malevolence. "I'll come," he said. The blood kept running down into his right eye, and his cheek was a blaze of pain. When he touched it his black gloves came away stained with red. "Let me catch my garron." It was not the horse he wanted so much as Ghost, but the direwolf was nowhere to be seen. He could be leagues away by now, ripping out the throat of some elk. Perhaps that was just as well. (Jon II in A Storm of Swords)  

Red blood on black representing a red dragon on black? And this is linked in a way to a point I made above - when Jon is stabbed, he would be wearing black as a brother of the Night's Watch; that black clothing will, following his stabbing, be stained with blood.  

[The Fattest Leech]

27 minutes ago, dornishdame said:

Have to say that I am in agreement with your disbelief that we have yet to discuss this.  Firstly, I would add in this quote from Feast:

I love what you have written here. Sometimes I hold myself back to reduce symbolism backlash from others, but you did a fine job here

27 minutes ago, dornishdame said:

 

I won't spend time debating who the seven rubies represent; I don't entirely know that they do each represent a specific person - but I do think that the fact that one is missing is significant.  And that the missing ruby represents Jon himself.  If we look at the Qhorin Halfhand example of the use of the phrase "ruby necklace" that you have quoted, that necklace is caused by blood.  So it is as much Rhaegar's "blood", in a sense, his son, that is 'missing' - because Jon does not know that he is of Rhaegar's blood and is not recognized in that way. And that also feeds in to the quote you included from Jorah, which alluded to an intertwining of Rhaegar's blood and rubies floating downstream. 

Sidebar: perhaps there were seven rubies not to represent seven people, but because seven is deemed such a significant number in Westeros among those who follow the Faith, and it would be normal for seven of anything to be chosen out of respect for the gods? Who knows!

Yeah, the rubies in the river could mean something. It just seems weird that they are referred to over and over in different POV's if they do not have any meaning.

For me, the last, lost ruby in the river ties in with my other thread about Jon and the new Nymeria and all of the river/water symbolism there... but I won't get into that one here. Ultimately, I think this is a detail not to be forgotten.

 

27 minutes ago, dornishdame said:

~snipped a little for length~

This time, Jon's comparison is of blood.  Which takes us back to a point I briefly mentioned in my musical essay - embers+blood = fire+blood, the words of House Targaryen.  So, Ghost's eyes are representative of both his Stark heritage (the link to the Old Gods) and his Targaryen heritage (the fact that Jon refers to them in fiery and bloody terms).

Now, to bring in the concept of rubies - as you stated, Mormont has garnets purchased to represent Ghost's eyes in the pommel of Longclaw.  Rubies and garnets are often mistaken for one another, but are not the same thing.  Rubies are precious stones, garnets seen as a cheap imitation.  It is garnets that are used in Longclaw's pommel; Longclaw is a bastard sword wielded by a bastard - something that others see as appropriate, as well as Jon himself as you noted:

Excellent reasoning for the garnet/ruby contrast. Something I should have known since I have a hunk of jewelry with garnets instead of rubies just for that reason

Yeah, Jon definitely thinks Longclaw is the right fit for him, which is why I tend to think Longclaw is unique unto itself and not a hidden Blackfyre, etc. Longclaw may "evolve" into something else, but it is what it is at this moment = perfect for Jon.

27 minutes ago, dornishdame said:

~snipped a little again~

As to the prophecy regarding the waking of dragons from stone, I definitely think this means Jon rather than the dragons Daenerys hatches in the Dothraki Sea.  If we look back at other prophecies in this world that deal with dragons, they deal not with the literal but the metaphorical - Targaryens.  In The Hedge Knight and The Mystery Knight we encounter prophecies relating to the death and birth of a dragon; on both occasions, these prophecies relate to men of Targaryen, or "dragon", blood.  Even in the main series, when the Ghost of High Heart speaks of things now happening and to come, she uses heraldry and symbolism - such as her reference to Catelyn as a woman who was a fish.  Therefore, I think that Jon will be the dragon that is woken from stone.   

Agreed. Maybe I was a little ambiguous. I do think the "dragon from stone" is a metaphor for Jon himself in contrast to Dany and her literal dragons from stone eggs. Those two are obvious parallels given similar situations, but each handle them in ways unique to themselves which is establishing their future personalities.

I guess what I meant is if Longclaw is somewhat of a physical representation of Jon (and Ghost) now, then if a funeral pyre changes Jon in the near future, then there could be a physical change in Longclaw again to show a (small) secondary change as well. Something only Jon may notice???

 

27 minutes ago, dornishdame said:

Ser Jaime Lannister was twin to Queen Cersei; tall and golden, with flashing green eyes and a smile that cut like a knife. He wore crimson silk, high black boots, a black satin cloak. On the breast of his tunic, the lion of his House was embroidered in gold thread, roaring its defiance. They called him the Lion of Lannister to his face and whispered "Kingslayer" behind his back.

Jon found it hard to look away from him. This is what a king should look like, he thought to himself as the man passed. (Jon I in A Game of Thrones)

Yes, I know that this quote may be a reference to the abandonment of the plot that saw Jaime become king, and I know that the golden lion of Lannister is mentioned as being embroidered on Jaime's cloak, BUT I do find it interesting that in his very first chapter, Jon's idea of what a king should look like is linked to red and black - the colors of his biological father's House. 

I had forgotten Jaime was wearing those colors when Jon first saw him. Thanks for the reminder (sorry, I can't remember everything all the time, but wish I could). Yeah, the idea that Jon was not impressed with Robert, yet thinking Jaime looks like a king screams "remember this!", and now with your color reminder it makes all new sense again.

27 minutes ago, dornishdame said:

Can a bird hate? Jon had slain the wilding Orell, but some part of the man remained within the eagle. The golden eyes looked out on him with cold malevolence. "I'll come," he said. The blood kept running down into his right eye, and his cheek was a blaze of pain. When he touched it his black gloves came away stained with red. "Let me catch my garron." It was not the horse he wanted so much as Ghost, but the direwolf was nowhere to be seen. He could be leagues away by now, ripping out the throat of some elk. Perhaps that was just as well. (Jon II in A Storm of Swords)  

Red blood on black representing a red dragon on black? And this is linked in a way to a point I made above - when Jon is stabbed, he would be wearing black as a brother of the Night's Watch; that black clothing will, following his stabbing, be stained with blood.  

Oh yes! I have used this red blood on black imagery before for the same reason. Again, and knowing GRRM has said not every word is a clue, I think this is something to pay attention to and not forget.

So going on GRRM's statement that not every word is a clue, I want to say that these following words seems like clues to me about Jon, his heritage and the connection his parents had with each other :

A Storm of Swords - Jon II

"Wed?" Tormund laughed. "Who spoke of wedding? In the south, must a man wed every girl he beds?"

Jon could feel himself turning red again. "She spoke for me when Rattleshirt would have killed me. I would not dishonor her."

"You are a free man now, and Ygritte is a free woman. What dishonor if you lay together?"

[dornishdame]

48 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I love what you have written here. Sometimes I hold myself back to reduce symbolism backlash from others, but you did a fine job here

I sometimes hold back for the same reason - also I do often have a tendency to let my line of thought run off to crackpottery instead of sticking to a simple argument regarding symbolism.

50 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Yeah, the rubies in the river could mean something. It just seems weird that they are referred to over and over in different POV's if they do not have any meaning.

For me, the last, lost ruby in the river ties in with my other thread about Jon and the new Nymeria and all of the river/water symbolism there... but I won't get into that one here. Ultimately, I think this is a detail not to be forgotten.

My general rule of thumb is that if something is referenced multiple times, then it means something!! Like Lyanna as Knight of the Laughing Tree - twice it is mentioned that competent horsemanship (or horsewomanship, in this case!) accounts for the bulk of jousting skill (Roose it and Jaime thinks it) and twice it is mentioned that Lyanna was skilled in such a way - Harwin tells Arya that, like Lyanna, she rides like a Northman, and Barbrey Ryswell describes both Brandon and Lyanna as "half-centaur". 

I do think that the rubies represent blood also - there are too many references to the two of them together for that not to be the case.  I'll need to go back and look at all mentions of rubies in the text (at some point) and try to figure out what that could mean for Jon.  

57 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Excellent reasoning for the garnet/ruby contrast. Something I should have known since I have a hunk of jewelry with garnets instead of rubies just for that reason

Yeah, Jon definitely thinks Longclaw is the right fit for him, which is why I tend to think Longclaw is unique unto itself and not a hidden Blackfyre, etc. Longclaw may "evolve" into something else, but it is what it is at this moment = perfect for Jon.

Agreed. Maybe I was a little ambiguous. I do think the "dragon from stone" is a metaphor for Jon himself in contrast to Dany and her literal dragons from stone eggs. Those two are obvious parallels given similar situations, but each handle them in ways unique to themselves which is establishing their future personalities.

I guess what I meant is if Longclaw is somewhat of a physical representation of Jon (and Ghost) now, then if a funeral pyre changes Jon in the near future, then there could be a physical change in Longclaw again to show a (small) secondary change as well. Something only Jon may notice???

He does think of Longclaw as a good fit, yes, but he also thinks that it won't change who he is:

"Yes, my lord." The soft leather gave beneath Jon's fingers, as if the sword were molding itself to his grip already. He knew he should be honored, and he was, and yet …

He is not my father. The thought leapt unbidden to Jon's mind. Lord Eddard Stark is my father. I will not forget him, no matter how many swords they give me. Yet he could scarcely tell Lord Mormont that it was another man's sword he dreamt of …

"I want no courtesies either," Mormont said, "so thank me no thanks. Honor the steel with deeds, not words." (Jon VIII in A Game of Thrones)

This kind of links into Rhaegar, and the fact that whatever happens Jon will always consider Ned to be his father.  I have wondered from time to time if the reference to other swords plural is a reference to Jon being given a Targaryen sword in the future - perhaps Dark Sister, another bastard sword?

As for changes in Longclaw, there is this dream that Jon has that is full of Lightbringer imagery:

They are all gone. They have abandoned me.

Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. "Snow," an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she'd appeared.

The world dissolved into a red mist. Jon stabbed and slashed and cut. He hacked down Donal Noye and gutted Deaf Dick Follard. Qhorin Halfhand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to staunch the flow of blood from his neck. "I am the Lord of Winterfell," Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off. Then a gnarled hand seized Jon roughly by the shoulder. He whirled … (Jon XII in A Dance with Dragons)

This does go back a bit to the Azor Ahai prophecy and the idea of Jon as the dragon that will be woken from stone, but I think also links into your point regarding Jon and changes in Longclaw - he dreams of a battle in which he has a blade that burns red (as Lightbringer is meant to) - a blade that the following paragraph specifically identifies as Longclaw. I know that this idea may partly or totally contradict the one I mentioned above, that Jon may wield another sword, but I also think that we cannot completely pin down anything regarding the future as yet - the story takes too many twists!

Also - the dream begins with the idea of Jon as having been abandoned; They are all gone. And that feeds back to the idea of Jon as lonely and isolated, particularly in Dance, and to the melancholy that he shared with Rhaegar.

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I had forgotten Jaime was wearing those colors when Jon first saw him. Thanks for the reminder (sorry, I can't remember everything all the time, but wish I could). Yeah, the idea that Jon was not impressed with Robert, yet thinking Jaime looks like a king screams "remember this!", and now with your color reminder it makes all new sense again.

Oh yes! I have used this red blood on black imagery before for the same reason. Again, and knowing GRRM has said not every word is a clue, I think this is something to pay attention to and not forget.

Yeah, I think I have said before that the colors Rhaegar is mentioned alongside in Jaimes's Storm dream are akin to those we associate with Jon - red, white and dark (black).  It would be interesting - as I seem to keep saying! - to go back and see how many times black and red, the colors of House Targaryen, are referenced in relation to Jon throughout the text.  And I do think that the idea of red on black (and the two mentions of red blood on black clothing for Jon) links back to the idea of Rhaegar's black armor and red blood and rubies.  

Also on the kingly thing - in that dream Jaime has, he describes him internally as:

Rhaegar Targaryen, Prince of Dragonstone and rightful heir to the Iron Throne. (Jaime VI in A Storm of Swords) - so Jon thinks that Jaime in red and black looks like a king, while Jaime thinks of the line of Jon's father Rhaegar as the true one. 

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

So going on GRRM's statement that not every word is a clue, I want to say that these following words seems like clues to me about Jon, his heritage and the connection his parents had with each other :

A Storm of Swords - Jon II

"Wed?" Tormund laughed. "Who spoke of wedding? In the south, must a man wed every girl he beds?"

Jon could feel himself turning red again. "She spoke for me when Rattleshirt would have killed me. I would not dishonor her."

"You are a free man now, and Ygritte is a free woman. What dishonor if you lay together?"

I think that Jon's relationship with Ygritte and the story of Bael the Bard are both excellent resources for Rhaegar's relationship with Lyanna! There are so many parallels that it is impossible not to compare those relationships.  I think I have said before that I believe Rhaegar's first meeting with Lyanna was very similar to that between Jon and Ygritte.  

I wonder if perhaps the idea of Rhaegar not dishonoring a woman could also relate to this thought that Ned has:

There was no answer Ned Stark could give to that but a frown. For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not. (Eddard IX in A Game of Thrones)

So, Rhaegar is not the type to dishonor a woman; something Jon says that he will not do.  Tormund, in turn, says that to lie with Ygritte is not to dishonor her, but Jon believes at this time in the southron concept of dishonor - as Rhaegar did.  Sidebar: As much as Ned's internal voice says that he is thinking of Rhaegar for the first time in years, in the previous chapter: Suddenly, uncomfortably, he found himself recalling Rhaegar Targaryen. (Eddard VIII in A Game of Thrones) - Ned thinks about Rhaegar a lot - this time, however I think that for the first time in a long time, Ned thinks of Rhaegar as Jon's father. And it is in relation to dishonor.  Ned doesn't see Rhaegar as the type of man to dishonor a woman.  And that says a lot in terms of the Rhaegar/Lyanna and Jon/Ygritte parallels.  Also, I think that Ned thinking of Rhaegar as Jon's father for the first time in years feeds back in to the sword reference I included above - Ned doesn't tend to think of Rhaegar as Jon's father, and nor - once he finds out the truth - do I think that Jon will think of himself as Rhaegar's son. 

He is not my father. The thought leapt unbidden to Jon's mind. Lord Eddard Stark is my father. I will not forget him, no matter how many swords they give me.

[dornishdame]

So........I was in a video conference today and found my mind wandering to Jon and Rhaegar.  And - rather morbidly - to the dual associations they have with birth and death. 

"You make him sound so sour," Dany protested.

"Not sour, no, but . . . there was a melancholy to Prince Rhaegar, a sense . . ." The old man hesitated again.

"Say it," she urged. "A sense . . . ?"

". . . of doom. He was born in grief, my queen, and that shadow hung over him all his days."

Viserys had spoken of Rhaegar's birth only once. Perhaps the tale saddened him too much. "It was the shadow of Summerhall that haunted him, was it not?" (Daenerys IV in A Storm of Swords)

If we compare that with Jon's birth at the Tower of Joy..........

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers." (Eddard I in A Game of Thrones)

Ultimately, both Jon and Rhaegar were born in grief. Rhaegar was born amid the fire at Summerhall that led to the deaths of so many, and Jon's birth is associated with the battle and deaths at the Tower of Joy. The birth of both are linked to the deaths of family members - in Rhaegar's case multiple family members.  Barristan ascribes Rhaegar's melancholy to what happened at Summerhall, and perhaps part of Jon's is down to the fact that he doesn't know what happened at his birth.  For both of them, what should be a joyous occasion is marred by multiple deaths - although we don't know how many people died at Summerhall, nor who precisely they were, we know some of the figures we lost - such as Aegon V and Ser Duncan the Tall.  At the Tower of Joy, all three members of the Kingsguard are killed along with Lyanna and five northmen. Just also realized that the births of both Jon and Rhaegar coincide with the death of multiple members of the Kingsguard - I'm not sure if that means anything or if it is just a coincidence.  

Interestingly, in the birth/death line, I have spoken before about Jaime's fever dream in A Storm of Swords and specifically that Rhaegar appears in it associated with three colors - red, white and dark (black?) - which can also be associated with Jon.  Now, if we look at Jon's birth and death/re-birth (assuming as I think that his consciousness will live a short second life in Ghost before returning to his body) - those same three colors recur.  Jon was born at the Tower of Joy, which is located in the red mountains of Dorne; he is stabbed (and will appear to die before returning to his body) at Castle Black, which is at the Wall, an ice-white structure. I might be taking this a bit too far, but at the very least it highlights again that Jon is associated with those three colors.  Interestingly, there is also the fact that in Jaime's dream we are essentially seeing a reincarnation of Rhaegar; Rhaegar after death.  

[The Fattest Leech]

On 9/23/2016 at 9:17 AM, dornishdame said:

So........I was in a video conference today and found my mind wandering to Jon and Rhaegar.  And - rather morbidly - to the dual associations they have with birth and death. 

"You make him sound so sour," Dany protested.

"Not sour, no, but . . . there was a melancholy to Prince Rhaegar, a sense . . ." The old man hesitated again.

"Say it," she urged. "A sense . . . ?"

". . . of doom. He was born in grief, my queen, and that shadow hung over him all his days."

Viserys had spoken of Rhaegar's birth only once. Perhaps the tale saddened him too much. "It was the shadow of Summerhall that haunted him, was it not?" (Daenerys IV in A Storm of Swords)

If we compare that with Jon's birth at the Tower of Joy..........

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers." (Eddard I in A Game of Thrones)

Ultimately, both Jon and Rhaegar were born in grief. Rhaegar was born amid the fire at Summerhall that led to the deaths of so many, and Jon's birth is associated with the battle and deaths at the Tower of Joy. The birth of both are linked to the deaths of family members - in Rhaegar's case multiple family members.  Barristan ascribes Rhaegar's melancholy to what happened at Summerhall, and perhaps part of Jon's is down to the fact that he doesn't know what happened at his birth.  For both of them, what should be a joyous occasion is marred by multiple deaths - although we don't know how many people died at Summerhall, nor who precisely they were, we know some of the figures we lost - such as Aegon V and Ser Duncan the Tall.  At the Tower of Joy, all three members of the Kingsguard are killed along with Lyanna and five northmen. Just also realized that the births of both Jon and Rhaegar coincide with the death of multiple members of the Kingsguard - I'm not sure if that means anything or if it is just a coincidence.  

Interestingly, in the birth/death line, I have spoken before about Jaime's fever dream in A Storm of Swords and specifically that Rhaegar appears in it associated with three colors - red, white and dark (black?) - which can also be associated with Jon.  Now, if we look at Jon's birth and death/re-birth (assuming as I think that his consciousness will live a short second life in Ghost before returning to his body) - those same three colors recur.  Jon was born at the Tower of Joy, which is located in the red mountains of Dorne; he is stabbed (and will appear to die before returning to his body) at Castle Black, which is at the Wall, an ice-white structure. I might be taking this a bit too far, but at the very least it highlights again that Jon is associated with those three colors.  Interestingly, there is also the fact that in Jaime's dream we are essentially seeing a reincarnation of Rhaegar; Rhaegar after death.  

Sorry about the delay in responding. I have had limited off and on access with my crazy internet connection lately. I mentioned the Summerhall/Winterfell comparison in the main post, but alas, you found some great bits to add to it. I especially love the "grief" parts, if one can love the grief parts???  I will update the op to include/link to this info here

I have mentioned this in other threads, but, when Winds is released, I am not sure which part of the book I want to flip to first... Bran with Bloodraven (Bloodraven is my most favorite character) and if Bran has seen more in his weirwood visions, or, to whoever in the POV at Castle Black to see what is done with Jon's body. I do not think he is dead-dead, so no "hairwatch" for me!

[The Fattest Leech]

I want to make my own little new contribution. Music is required for dancing, and in ASOIAF, to dance= to fight.

“

A harp can be as dangerous as a sword, in the right hands.

”

- littlefinger, to Sansa Stark

 

Both have the harp symbolism in common as well, and if you add that to the rubies, well then, you are hard pressed to find stronger relations. Rhaegar who actually plays the harp, and Jon's first chapter is when a harpist at Winterfell is first mentioned in the story, and then later the tale of Bael the Bard is told in a Jon chapter.

Rhaegar playing the harp picture. Notice how bow-like the harp is, and Jon is(was) very busy getting the men at Castle Black to develop and improve their bow skills. Even Sam, who continues his bow training while sailing on the Cinnamon Wind.

A Dance with Dragons - The Griffin Reborn

At the welcoming feast, the prince [Rhaegar] had taken up his silver-stringed harp and played for them. A song of love and doom, Jon Connington recalled, and every woman in the hall was weeping when he put down the harp. Not the men, of course.

 

These passages are what makes me think Jon is developing a new crew of Raven's Teeth.

A Feast for Crows - Samwell I

"Ulmer," Sam said, abashed. Almost the first thing Jon Snow had done as Lord Commander was institute daily archery drill for the entire garrison, even stewards and cooks. The Watch had been placing too much emphasis on the sword and too little on the bow, he had said, a relic of the days when one brother in every ten had been a knight, instead of one in every hundred. Sam saw the sense in the decree, but he hated longbow practice almost as much as he hated climbing steps. When he wore his gloves he could never hit anything, but when he took them off he got blisters on his fingers. Those bows were dangerous. Satin had torn off half his thumbnail on a bowstring. "I forgot."

 

A Feast for Crows - Samwell I

Sam reddened. King Stannis had plans for Val, he knew; she was the mortar with which he meant to seal the peace between the northmen and the free folk. "I don't have time for archery today, I need to go see Jon."

 

A Feast for Crows - Samwell I

"My b-b-bastard." He had said that, yes, but . . . All that water. I could drown. Ships sink all the time, and autumn is a stormy season. Gilly would be with him, though, and the babe would grow up safe. "Yes, I . . . my mother and my sisters will help Gilly with the child." I can send a letter, I won't need to go to Horn Hill myself. "Dareon could see her to Oldtown just as well as me. I'm . . . I've been working at my archery every afternoon with Ulmer, as you commanded . . . well, except when I'm in the vaults, but you told me to find out about the Others. The longbow makes my shoulders ache and raises blisters on my fingers." He showed Jon where one had burst. "I still do it, though. I can hit the target more often than not now, but I'm still the worst archer who ever bent a bow. I like Ulmer's stories, though. Someone needs to write them down and put them in a book."

 

and I really love this one:

A Feast for Crows - Samwell V

Thrice longships were sighted by the crow's nest. Two were well astern, however, and the Cinnamon Wind soon outdistanced them. The third appeared near sunset, to cut them off from Whispering Sound. When they saw her oars rising and falling, lashing the copper waters white, Kojja Mo sent her archers to the castles with their great bows of goldenheart that could send a shaft farther and truer than even Dornish yew. She waited till the longship came within two hundred yards before she gave the command to loose. Sam loosed with them, and this time he thought his arrow reached the ship. One volley was all it took. The longship veered south in search of tamer prey.

 

and Jon even used his archers to save fMance/Rattleshirt from death by flame:

A Dance with Dragons - Jon III

Jon Snow had seen enough. "Now," he said.

Ulmer of the Kingswood jammed his spear into the ground, unslung his bow, and slipped a black arrow from his quiver. Sweet Donnel Hill threw back his hood to do the same. Garth Greyfeather and Bearded Ben nocked shafts, bent their bows, loosed.

One arrow took Mance Rayder in the chest, one in the gut, one in the throat. The fourth struck one of the cage's wooden bars, and quivered for an instant before catching fire. A woman's sobs echoed off the Wall as the wildling king slid bonelessly to the floor of his cage, wreathed in fire. "And now his Watch is done," Jon murmured softly. Mance Rayder had been a man of the Night's Watch once, before he changed his black cloak for one slashed with bright red silk.

A Dance with Dragons - Jon V

Hal looked confused. "About the food, you mean? An apple or an onion? That's all I said. They got to pick."

"You have to pick," Jon Snow repeated. "All of you. No one is asking you to take our vows, and I do not care what gods you worship. My own gods are the old gods, the gods of the North, but you can keep the red god, or the Seven, or any other god who hears your prayers. It's spears we need. Bows. Eyes along the Wall.

[Panther2000]

On ‎7‎/‎16‎/‎2016 at 7:24 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

Thank you. Congrats on the second re-read. I have read a few times and listen to the audiobooks as well. I am still surprised at what new info and tidbits I come find each time. 

So true,  I have re read  the series a many times & still pick up on things that I missed.  This is a great post.   I did not read the books until the end of season 1 of the show.  Frankly, I never heard of this book series.   1 thing I did pick up on was their moods,  and that was even before I heard of a R + L =J theory.    But, there is so much more there.     For this series, I think re-reads are a most.

[The Fattest Leech]

3 minutes ago, Panther2000 said:

So true,  I have re read  the series a many times & still pick up on things that I missed.  This is a great post.   I did not read the books until the end of season 1 of the show.  Frankly, I never heard of this book series.   1 thing I did pick up on was their moods,  and that was even before I heard of a R + L =J theory.    But, there is so much more there.     For this series, I think re-reads are a most.

There is a quote somewhere out in internetlandia where George makes note that he wrote the books very layered, so that when you do a reread, you learn more tidbits everytime.

Yeah, I started picking up on Jon and Rhaegar's similarities while reading as well, but it took this long for me to actually make a thread that pulled them all together in one spot. I am glad I did because there are other readers that picked up on things I never noticed and they shared them here.

Thanks for the thread compliment. It is slow moving, but always building, and I am ok with that. A big reason why I love the re-read section of the forum.

[dornishdame]

16 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Sorry about the delay in responding. I have had limited off and on access with my crazy internet connection lately. I mentioned the Summerhall/Winterfell comparison in the main post, but alas, you found some great bits to add to it. I especially love the "grief" parts, if one can love the grief parts???  I will update the op to include/link to this info here

I have mentioned this in other threads, but, when Winds is released, I am not sure which part of the book I want to flip to first... Bran with Bloodraven (Bloodraven is my most favorite character) and if Bran has seen more in his weirwood visions, or, to whoever in the POV at Castle Black to see what is done with Jon's body. I do not think he is dead-dead, so no "hairwatch" for me!

More and more I am picking up on parallels between the two of them - so sad, as Jon will probably never know just how like Rhaegar he is!  The born in grief thing was something I had never thought of before, but the more I thought about it, the more birth and death parallels I started coming up with. I think we are so focused on the 'Stark' side of Jon that we spend ages looking for Lyanna and other Stark parallels rather than looking for links to his Targaryen side (something I am trying to work through at present).  As for Winds, I am going to lock myself away and read it in order - taking the odd note or two at the same time.  No internet access until I am done!  

As for Jon, my head-canon is that his consciousness transferred into Ghost at the end of Dance, and that he will remain there - his body growing colder - until he becomes the dragon that wakes from stone.  In Dance, Melisandre saw him as a man, then a wolf, and then a man again.  To me, that adds up to time in which his consciousness lives in Ghost before returning to his human body.  

Death, thought Melisandre. The skulls are death.

The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, limned in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain. Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again. But the skulls were here as well, the skulls were all around him. Melisandre had seen his danger before, had tried to warn the boy of it. Enemies all around him, daggers in the dark. He would not listen.

Unbelievers never listened until it was too late. (Melisandre I in A Dance with Dragons)

And Bloodraven - he may not be my favorite character, but in all of ASOIAF he is the one that I find most intriguing and would most like to found out more on. 

15 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I want to make my own little new contribution. Music is required for dancing, and in ASOIAF, to dance= to fight.

“

A harp can be as dangerous as a sword, in the right hands.

”

- littlefinger, to Sansa Stark

 

Both have the harp symbolism in common as well, and if you add that to the rubies, well then, you are hard pressed to find stronger relations. Rhaegar who actually plays the harp, and Jon's first chapter is when a harpist at Winterfell is first mentioned in the story, and then later the tale of Bael the Bard is told in a Jon chapter.

Rhaegar playing the harp picture. Notice how bow-like the harp is, and Jon is(was) very busy getting the men at Castle Black to develop and improve their bow skills. Even Sam, who continues his bow training while sailing on the Cinnamon Wind.

A Dance with Dragons - The Griffin Reborn

At the welcoming feast, the prince [Rhaegar] had taken up his silver-stringed harp and played for them. A song of love and doom, Jon Connington recalled, and every woman in the hall was weeping when he put down the harp. Not the men, of course.

 

These passages are what makes me think Jon is developing a new crew of Raven's Teeth.

Interesting sidebar:  I think that there are generally a lot of Jon/Bloodraven parallels (this is one of the Targaryen links/parallels I am looking into at present - the others are Aegon V, and Rhaegar, though I think I want to look into some Dragonknight stuff too) and Bloodraven is clearly very interested in Jon Snow. And Jon Snow has Blackwood blood on both sides - through Melantha Blackwood, wife of his grandfather's grandfather Lord Willam Stark, and through Betha Blackwood, wife of his grandfather's grandfather Aegon V.  I think that the Bloodraven parallels are yet another way of linking both sides of Jon's heritage; Bloodraven has Old Gods links, and is white and red - the colors of the weirwood tree - yet is also of Targaryen blood. 

As for the musical links - I had not picked up on the idea of harps and bows!  I looked mainly at song, but it just goes to show that there are many, many layers of Jon/Rhaegar musical parallels and that the more we look, the more we see!  

Also on the subject of bows - Ygritte uses one made partly of weirwood, and that I think links back in to the idea of the inversion of the Bael story with Ygritte as the wildling bard and Jon as the Stark maiden. 

Ygritte trotted beside Jon as he slowed his garron to a walk. She claimed to be three years older than him, though she stood half a foot shorter; however old she might be, the girl was a tough little thing. Stonesnake had called her a "spearwife" when they'd captured her in the Skirling Pass. She wasn't wed and her weapon of choice was a short curved bow of horn and weirwood, but "spearwife" fit her all the same. She reminded him a little of his sister Arya, though Arya was younger and probably skinnier. It was hard to tell how plump or thin Ygritte might be, with all the furs and skins she wore.

"Do you know 'The Last of the Giants'?" Without waiting for an answer Ygritte said, "You need a deeper voice than mine to do it proper." Then she sang, "Ooooooh, I am the last of the giants, my people are gone from the earth." (Jon II in A Storm of Swords)

The mention of her weapon of choice is followed immediately by a rendition of The Last of the Giants - a sad song, again linking into the idea of Jon/Ygritte and Rhaegar/Lyanna sad songs motif.  Actually, there are quite a few occasions in which Jon thinks of Ygritte and weirwoods together -

His body had played the part eagerly enough. His lips on hers, his hand sliding under her doeskin shirt to find a breast, his manhood stiffening when she rubbed her mound against it through their clothes. My vows, he'd thought, remembering the weirwood grove where he had said them, the nine great white trees in a circle, the carved red faces watching, listening. But her fingers were undoing his laces and her tongue was in his mouth and her hand slipped inside his smallclothes and brought him out, and he could not see the weirwoods anymore, only her. She bit his neck and he nuzzled hers, burying his nose in her thick red hair. Lucky, he thought, she is lucky, fire-kissed. "Isn't that good?" she whispered as she guided him inside her. She was sopping wet down there, and no maiden, that was plain, but Jon did not care. His vows, her maidenhood, none of it mattered, only the heat of her, the mouth on his, the finger that pinched at his nipple. "Isn't that sweet?" she said again. "Not so fast, oh, slow, yes, like that. There now, there now, yes, sweet, sweet. You know nothing, Jon Snow, but I can show you. Harder now. Yessss." (Jon III in A Storm of Swords)

The proving had been so sweet, though, and Ygritte had gone to sleep beside him with her head against his chest, and that was sweet as well, dangerously sweet. He thought of the weirwoods again, and the words he'd said before them. It was only once, and it had to be. Even my father stumbled once, when he forgot his marriage vows and sired a bastard. Jon vowed to himself that it would be the same with him. It will never happen again. (Jon III in A Storm of Swords)

When the dreams took him, he found himself back home once more, splashing in the hot pools beneath a huge white weirwood that had his father's face. Ygritte was with him, laughing at him, shedding her skins till she was naked as her name day, trying to kiss him, but he couldn't, not with his father watching. He was the blood of Winterfell, a man of the Night's Watch. I will not father a bastard, he told her. I will not. I will not. "You know nothing, Jon Snow," she whispered, her skin dissolving in the hot water, the flesh beneath sloughing off her bones until only skull and skeleton remained, and the pool bubbled thick and red. (Jon VI in A Storm of Swords)

On each of these occasions, Jon links Ygritte and the faces on the weirwood trees; he links them to his guilt over his relationship with Ygritte - a guilt that he regularly thinks of in relation to his father.  Her use of a weirwood bow, and her competency in archery again links in to the similarities between Rhaegar and his harp and Jon and bows.  

[sup]

Lots of great reads in this thread. Had to put some overtime in yesterday and literally just be at my desk this was a life saver. 

 

Thanks to all who contributed.

[The Fattest Leech]

24 minutes ago, sup said:

Lots of great reads in this thread. Had to put some overtime in yesterday and literally just be at my desk this was a life saver. 

 

Thanks to all who contributed.

Wow, thanks! I am sure others are thanking you as well. Glad it helped you through your sitting . I semi-understand that agony. My husband has to do that often for his job as well.

Feel free to add anything you find as well.

[The Fattest Leech]

On 9/26/2016 at 3:05 PM, dornishdame said:

As for the musical links - I had not picked up on the idea of harps and bows!  I looked mainly at song, but it just goes to show that there are many, many layers of Jon/Rhaegar musical parallels and that the more we look, the more we see!  

Also on the subject of bows - Ygritte uses one made partly of weirwood, and that I think links back in to the idea of the inversion of the Bael story with Ygritte as the wildling bard and Jon as the Stark maiden. 

Ygritte trotted beside Jon as he slowed his garron to a walk. She claimed to be three years older than him, though she stood half a foot shorter; however old she might be, the girl was a tough little thing. Stonesnake had called her a "spearwife" when they'd captured her in the Skirling Pass. She wasn't wed and her weapon of choice was a short curved bow of horn and weirwood, but "spearwife" fit her all the same. She reminded him a little of his sister Arya, though Arya was younger and probably skinnier. It was hard to tell how plump or thin Ygritte might be, with all the furs and skins she wore.

"Do you know 'The Last of the Giants'?" Without waiting for an answer Ygritte said, "You need a deeper voice than mine to do it proper." Then she sang, "Ooooooh, I am the last of the giants, my people are gone from the earth." (Jon II in A Storm of Swords)

...snipped...

A twist this time... Jon and his mother linked... with a dash of Rhaegar on the side.

Ok, I have re-read this a few times, and in light of the other thread in the general section about Lyanna and the Knight of the Laughing Tree question, this brought me back to what you posted. Damn it, the more you read, the more you find. George is a crafty bastard

To me, and maybe a few others, this interaction between Jon and Ygritte sounds like a playback to some of the KotLT story we know about, and how it may have just worked to win over Rhaegar (somehow). I bolded a few choice parts above, but will re-add them to explain my thinking:

She claimed to be three years older than him, though she stood half a foot shorter; however old she might be, the girl was a tough little thing. - Lyanna might still have the frame of younger lady, but she is still tough, as we have been told by those closest to her.

She reminded him a little of his sister Arya, though Arya was younger and probably skinnier. It was hard to tell how plump or thin Ygritte might be, with all the furs and skins she wore. - We have already been told (a few times) how Arya is so much like Jon's mother, well, this is possibly another link. It is quite possible that even though Lyanna was young and skinny, it was still hard to tell what she was really like hidden under all of her pieced together armor.

Ygritte said, "You need a deeper voice than mine to do it proper." Then she sang,""Ooooooh," - Ok, and now we have a possible link to Lyanna convincingly using a deeper (booming) voice to disguise her own. Plus, anyone inside a full metal helm will have their voice altered anyway to a more "booming" sound.

• So here, Ygritte starts singing the song Last of the Giants, and at the end of the passage, she cries... just like Lyanna did...
  • For when I am gone the singing will fade,
    and the silence shall last long and long.
    There were tears on Ygritte's cheeks when the song ended.

Here is a link to the song Ygritte (and Tormund and another) sing to Jon http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/The_Last_of_the_Giants

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

IT seems kind of a stretch . Jon is more like Aemon  than Rhaegar .

[The Fattest Leech]

17 hours ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

IT seems kind of a stretch . Jon is more like Aemon  than Rhaegar .

That's hilarious. It's good that you see through the jokes, lies, and made-up book quotes we are all pulling together in this thread.

[The Fattest Leech]

On 9/14/2016 at 10:59 AM, dornishdame said:

~snipped~

Now, to bring in the concept of rubies - as you stated, Mormont has garnets purchased to represent Ghost's eyes in the pommel of Longclaw.  Rubies and garnets are often mistaken for one another, but are not the same thing.  Rubies are precious stones, garnets seen as a cheap imitation.  It is garnets that are used in Longclaw's pommel; Longclaw is a bastard sword wielded by a bastard - something that others see as appropriate, as well as Jon himself as you noted:

Jon dismounted. Slung across his back in a black leather shoulder sheath was Longclaw, the hand-and-a-half bastard blade the Old Bear had given him for saving his life. A bastard sword for a bastard, the men joked. The hilt had been fashioned new for him, adorned with a wolf's-head pommel in pale stone, but the blade itself was Valyrian steel, old and light and deadly sharp. (Jon II in A Clash of Kings)

And yet.........perhaps we can compare the use of garnets rather than rubies to that of Jon's identity as the Bastard of Winterfell over that of the son of Rhaegar Targaryen.  The Bastard of Winterfell is essentially the lesser of the two identities, just as garnets are the lesser of the two stones; Rhaegar wears rubies, but because of that missing blood-knowledge I mentioned above, Jon must wear garnets. His current identity is a cheap imitation of who he really is.  And that link to Ghost through Longclaw again goes back to what I have said before about the two strands of Jon's heritage often coming together.  I could be looking into this far too much, but it was a passing thought that seems to have ended up being a longer one!

~snipped~

Just a quick note on something I re-discovered during a ASOS re-listen the other day. Regarding the rubies/garnet points, I found this interesting discussion between Tobho Mott and Tywin about the two new swords that came from Ice:

A Storm of Swords - Tyrion IV

As he entered his lord father's solar a few moments later, he heard a voice saying, ". . . cherrywood for the scabbards, bound in red leather and ornamented with a row of lion's-head studs in pure gold. Perhaps with garnets for the eyes . . ."

"Rubies," Lord Tywin said. "Garnets lack the fire."

[dornishdame]

On 11/7/2016 at 4:01 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

Just a quick note on something I re-discovered during a ASOS re-listen the other day. Regarding the rubies/garnet points, I found this interesting discussion between Tobho Mott and Tywin about the two new swords that came from Ice:

A Storm of Swords - Tyrion IV

As he entered his lord father's solar a few moments later, he heard a voice saying, ". . . cherrywood for the scabbards, bound in red leather and ornamented with a row of lion's-head studs in pure gold. Perhaps with garnets for the eyes . . ."

"Rubies," Lord Tywin said. "Garnets lack the fire."

Amazing - kind of links back to an instance I think I referred to in an earlier post in which Ghost's eyes are compared to embers.............and what are 'embers' - what is left over from a fire!

The mare whickered softly as Jon Snow tightened the cinch. "Easy, sweet lady," he said in a soft voice, quieting her with a touch. Wind whispered through the stable, a cold dead breath on his face, but Jon paid it no mind. He strapped his roll to the saddle, his scarred fingers stiff and clumsy. "Ghost," he called softly, "to me." And the wolf was there, eyes like embers. (Jon IX in A Game of Thrones)

And that again links into the idea that in his lack of knowledge regarding his true heritage, Jon doesn't have a full grasp on his identity.  All he has is what is left over. 

As for Tywin's comments, Jon's own eyes come from his Stark mother, Lyanna, rather than his Targaryen father, Rhaegar. They are Northern, Winter is Coming eyes, rather than Targaryen, Fire and Blood eyes. Tywin was obsessed with the idea of betrothing his daughter to Rhaegar, and therefore being grandfather to the then-prince's son. He wants the best for House Lannister, and nothing less will do.  But it is Jon, the bastard wielding the bastard sword with the seemingly-inferior garnets to highlight the eyes of an animal, that is Rhaegar's son - and no blood relation of Tywin's.  Tywin comes off second best in spite of his money, and in spite of his position.  Money clearly cannot buy everything - including being grandfather to Rhaegar's son!  He may live the life of rubies (while Jon must live under the illusion that his identity is the equivalent of garnets) but Jon's heritage ultimately beats Tywin's. 

[The Fattest Leech]

1 hour ago, dornishdame said:

Amazing - kind of links back to an instance I think I referred to in an earlier post in which Ghost's eyes are compared to embers.............and what are 'embers' - what is left over from a fire!

The mare whickered softly as Jon Snow tightened the cinch. "Easy, sweet lady," he said in a soft voice, quieting her with a touch. Wind whispered through the stable, a cold dead breath on his face, but Jon paid it no mind. He strapped his roll to the saddle, his scarred fingers stiff and clumsy. "Ghost," he called softly, "to me." And the wolf was there, eyes like embers. (Jon IX in A Game of Thrones)

And that again links into the idea that in his lack of knowledge regarding his true heritage, Jon doesn't have a full grasp on his identity.  All he has is what is left over. 

As for Tywin's comments, Jon's own eyes come from his Stark mother, Lyanna, rather than his Targaryen father, Rhaegar. They are Northern, Winter is Coming eyes, rather than Targaryen, Fire and Blood eyes. Tywin was obsessed with the idea of betrothing his daughter to Rhaegar, and therefore being grandfather to the then-prince's son. He wants the best for House Lannister, and nothing less will do.  But it is Jon, the bastard wielding the bastard sword with the seemingly-inferior garnets to highlight the eyes of an animal, that is Rhaegar's son - and no blood relation of Tywin's.  Tywin comes off second best in spite of his money, and in spite of his position.  Money clearly cannot buy everything - including being grandfather to Rhaegar's son!  He may live the life of rubies (while Jon must live under the illusion that his identity is the equivalent of garnets) but Jon's heritage ultimately beats Tywin's. 

Awesome. I love these connections that cross POV's and make the story that much deeper. 

[GhostNymeria]

@The Fattest Leech What a great thread! I'd like to add a small possible connection i recently noticed about the desriptions of Rhaegar's and Jon's hearts. 

Robert talking about Rhaegar with Ned in AGoT:

Quote

Rhaegar...Rhaegar won, damn him. I killed him, Ned, I drove the spike right through that black armor into his black heart, and he died at my feet. They made up songs about it. Yet somehow he still won. He has Lyanna now, and I have her.

And then Jon, In ADwD:

Quote

His thoughs kept returning to Arya. There is no way I could help her. I put all kin aside when I said my words. Once a man had said the words his blood was black. Black as a bastard's heart.

And this has probably been mentioned here already, but I also think Rhaegar's famous black armor (instead of black and red), is a parallel to Jon, as he is a man of the night's watch and dressed in black. He has alse been referred to as "the black bastard of Winterfell". 

[The Fattest Leech]

1 hour ago, GhostNymeria said:

@The Fattest Leech What a great thread! I'd like to add a small possible connection i recently noticed about the desriptions of Rhaegar's and Jon's hearts. 

Robert talking about Rhaegar with Ned in AGoT:

And then Jon, In ADwD:

And this has probably been mentioned here already, but I also think Rhaegar's famous black armor (instead of black and red), is a parallel to Jon, as he is a man of the night's watch and dressed in black. He has alse been referred to as "the black bastard of Winterfell". 

Wow! Great addition. Thank you.

Rhaegar died and they made songs.

I don't think it has been mentioned, but I will add it to the main post and credit will be yours

UPDATED!!!

[GhostNymeria]

25 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Wow! Great addition. Thank you.

Rhaegar died and they made songs.

I don't think it has been mentioned, but I will add it to the main post and credit will be yours

UPDATED!!!

Oh wow, thank you!

And I did some reasearch just now to make sure the phrase was unique to Jon and Rhaegar. It's actually used once more in AFfC, when Jaime confronts the Blackfish(no pun intended).

Quote

(Jaime) "Free me from my vow to Lady Catelyn and I will meet you sword to sword. If I win, Riverrun is ours. If you slay me, we'll lift the siege." 

Ser Brynden laughed again. "Much as I would welcome the chance to take that golden sword away from you and cut out your black heart, your promises are worthless.

I couldn't find any other instances when the phrase was used (I searched through Google Books). I don't know if there's supposed to be a connection between all three characters. I don't know about Rhaegar and Jaime, but Jon and Jaime on the other hand have some heavy paralleling through out the story. Maybe it's connected to that.