Bakker: The Great Ordeal SPOILER THREAD pt. II

[Hello World]

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I read that last part of the sentence as saying that the demon had now taken on Malowebi's appearance.  As with others though, I don't see how it will be able to do anything in time to matter in TUC.  Perhaps it will come to fruition in the Series That Shall Not Be Named.

Does that mean that Kellhus can create his own skin-spies?

[Kalbear]

3 minutes ago, Rhom said:

I tend to agree that it was unnecessary.  However, could it be that he raped Proyas not as a prod to Prosha... but as a prod to Saubon?  In the next scene together we find that Saubon almost seems more distraught by it than Proyas.   

Sure, it's possible - though I'm not sure that it matters that much from the grand narrative of it all. Saubon being upset didn't seem to change a whole lot of his narrative arc, from what I recall. He got upset - but he was almost always going to be right where he was next to Kellhus. 

And again, I think it would have been fairly simple to mark Proyas in such a way that he was offensive to Saubon too. Heck, here's an easy one - castrate him. I suspect Saubon looking at Proyas as less than a man would have worked just fine to make Saubon disgusted. Or mark him with some disfigurement that offends Saubon. Or bring up some horrible thing in Proyas' past and make him a weeper. 

So yeah, I hope that it isn't just an issue with affecting Saubon and Proyas. That's pretty lazy writing, using rape as a way to affect others. 

[Rhom]

2 minutes ago, Hello World said:

Does that mean that Kellhus can create his own skin-spies?

Hadn't thought of it that way, but in a way maybe.  Although its less of a skin spy and more of a demonic possession.  Skin Spies are creations of the Tekne, while Kellhus literally took the Decapitant from the Outside.

[Sci-2]

What if Saubon's reaction to the buggery is what made him damned?

He even says he doesn't believe in Kellhus as the Savior before he dies, he just believes in the raw power.

[Hello World]

9 minutes ago, Rhom said:

Hadn't thought of it that way, but in a way maybe.  Although its less of a skin spy and more of a demonic possession.  Skin Spies are creations of the Tekne, while Kellhus literally took the Decapitant from the Outside.

What I mean is that Kellhus can replace people with his own demonic versions that look just like the original. Assuming that this demon somehow has a human body.

[Kalbear]

11 minutes ago, Sci-2 said:

What if Saubon's reaction to the buggery is what made him damned?

He even says he doesn't believe in Kellhus as the Savior before he dies, he just believes in the raw power.

I don't think that this would be the case, but it is possible. It still seems like a really weird thing to demonstrate how feelings about things damn you; I don't think it is required to have strong feelings about rape in order to show that. 

[Sci-2]

2 minutes ago, Dickwad Poster #3784 said:

I don't think that this would be the case, but it is possible. It still seems like a really weird thing to demonstrate how feelings about things damn you; I don't think it is required to have strong feelings about rape in order to show that. 

What I mean is the idea of Kellhus as a homosexual is what bleeds the last bit of mystique from Saubon's appreciation of the man.

Saubon isn't a believer in Kellhus as psychopomp, so in that sense we still don't know for sure if faith in Kellhus saves or not.

But, OTOH, it seems odd that Kellhus would get anything out of Saubon's damnation.

[Werthead]

19 hours ago, kuenjato said:

*Also, this might be RSB's densest book, with the most prose experimentation and outright philosophical examination. I always shake my head when he states on his blog that there might be a sales breakthrough any day now. While I love how Bakker seriously labors to deliver an intellectual experience, that sort of thing isn't going to get you anywhere near the bestseller lists.

I agree it is unlikely that the series is going to take off massively, but I don't think the denseness or prose experimentation are a problem. Frank Herbert and Steven Erikson's books are far denser and feature much more prose experimentation, and both were bestsellers (although it took Erikson a long, long time to get there).

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Wert, IIRC you put a lot of the blame for his low sales on his US publisher.  Do you still feel the same?  Or is there another factor holding him back?  I also recall that he got some bad press due to the whole "Bakker v Women" stuff, but I don't know how widespread that would have been.  

[Lies And Perfidy]

Regarding "the rape was for Saubon's benefit/manipulation" - while the actual Pounded In the Butt By the Aspect-Emperor chapter made a point of such from Proyas's POV, you'd expect Saubon's POV to reflect that. Like, even in passing. But I don't think Saubon thought of it at all in his chapters, or even thought of Proyas beyond a generalized "that dude is Charmin-soft," which was already his expressed attitude.

It really came across as RSB wanting to include some meta-textual transgression and then coming up with an in-story excuse for it.

[Hello World]

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He had walked the ways of Hell, returned bedecked in trophies. No one, not even the legendary Hero-Mage of ancient Ûmerau, Titirga, could rival his arcane might. He had learned of the head on the pole.

I'm curious about the wording here. Kellhus learned of the head on the pole? So it's not something that he created?

[Werthead]

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Wert, IIRC you put a lot of the blame for his low sales on his US publisher.  Do you still feel the same?  Or is there another factor holding him back?  I also recall that he got some bad press due to the whole "Bakker v Women" stuff, but I don't know how widespread that would have been.  

 

The number of people who pay attention to blogs and that sort of thing that closely is quite tiny, especially since it's not a universally-held view. Quite a few mainstream publications have given Bakker hugely laudatory reviews and it's never come up. So I think that has had a very small impact on things.

I think the primary reasons for Bakker's low-selling status are: 1) a lapse in momentum. Sales of the first series rose steadily and the PoN trilogy has apparently done reasonably well for Overlook and pretty well for Orbit (where those standards are a lot higher), but that was helped by a rapid release schedule. The much slower release schedule (eight years for the sequel series, more than twice as long as the first series) for TAE has been a big problem.

2) Failures in marketing, primarily by Overlook but Orbit could have probably done more. In particular, you had GRRM saying some very nice things about Bakker and the PoN trilogy but Overlook never even asked (to my knowledge) for a cover quote. Cover quotes by Steven Erikson and, er, me are not going to get you as far

3) Failures by the author to do more. Bakker really doesn't sell the books very well, he doesn't use Twitter usefully and he prefers to interact with people who are already in the club, as it were. Going out there and selling his books to people who normally read Brandon Sanderson or Patrick Rothfuss is a big ask, but it is possible. He's clearly just not that interested in doing it. Which would be fine if he didn't then seem puzzled about why the series isn't doing better and complain about it.

4) Overlook being a small publisher. I think that Orbit US would be interested in taking over the series and Bakker's "controversial" status is something that Tor could leverage as well (like they did with Goodkind). Bakker's books have actually sold reasonably well, just not well enough when you stretch them over thirteen years. Any big publisher would look at those numbers (which seem to be anything from 250,000 to 1 million, although that latter number is probably overinflated) and see some excellent foundation work that can be built on. Overlook simply don't have the muscle to do much more with the books than they do already.

[lokisnow]

2 hours ago, sologdin said:

the first consequence is the 'catamite images that clogged his eyes' (129) leading to his 'faith' being 'no more' (id.). AK occupied/controlled/dominated NP physically as a visceral demonstration of what had been done conceptually.  the second consequence is the effect this information has on CS thereafter, and then, third, the changed relation between NP and CS.  maybe.  

am thinking that it is almost required when we find that the dunyain are in fact the tleilaxu with regard to women, 'the unspeakable evil that is the shortest path,' which 'only the inchotroi could surpass' (160).

not done with volume yet.  the presumption should always be against the inclusion of scenes of sexual violence in a narrative; am withholding judgment until done.

Almost. CuS is in love with NP, so the rape of NP second consequence is the effect this information has not on CS but CuS in the forthcoming volume.  

 

perhaps to reunite or ally them in some manner?

[Kalbear]

Where is it that Cnaiur is in love with Proyas?

[lokisnow]

All throughout warrior prophet, the infamous fucking of the ground is in reaction to thinking about how beautiful proyas is and how badly he wants proyas. Cnaiur also saves proyas from perishing in the desert.

[Kalbear]

7 minutes ago, lokisnow said:

All throughout warrior prophet, the infamous fucking of the ground is in reaction to thinking about how beautiful proyas is and how badly he wants proyas. Cnaiur also saves proyas from perishing in the desert.

Huh. Didn't pick that up at all. I really didn't remember that he thought Proyas was beautiful. There is a part about how he's annoyed at himself for being outraged at watching Kellhus manipulate them all - even Proyas - but the implication there is that he actually dislikes Proyas. 

[lokisnow]

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He turned to the sound of the voice, saw Cnaiür crouched nearby, bent over what looked to be a belt. The man was shirtless, and Proyas noted the blistered skin of his massive shoulders, the stinging red of his scarred arms. His normally sensual lips were swollen and cracked. Behind him, a brook sloshed through a groove that wandered between earth and stone. The green of living things blurred the distance. “Scylvendi?” Cnaiür looked up, and for the first time Proyas noticed his age: the branching of wrinkles about his snow-blue eyes, the first greying hairs in his black mane. The barbarian was, he realized, not so much younger than his father. “What happened?” Proyas croaked. The Scylvendi resumed digging at the leather wrapped about his scarred knuckles. “You collapsed,” he said. “In the desert …” “You … You saved me?” Cnaiür paused without looking up. Then continued working.

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he still couldn’t help but think of her. The globes of her breasts. The wandering line of her hips. So perfect. How he’d burned for her, burned the way a warrior, a man, should! She was his prize—his proof! He remembered pretending to sleep while listening to her sob in the darkness. He remembered the remorse, as heavy as spring snow, pressing him breathless with its cold. What a fool he’d been! He thought of the apologies, of the desperate pleas that might soften her hatred, that might let her see. He thought of kissing the gentle swell of her belly. And he thought of Anissi, the first wife of his heart, slumbering in the flickering gloom of their faraway hearth, holding tight their daughter, Sanathi, as though sheltering her from the terror of womanhood.

And he thought of Proyas.

On the worst nights he hugged himself in the blackness of his tent, screaming and sobbing. He beat the earth with his fists, stabbed holes with his knife, then fucked them. He cursed the world. He cursed the heavens. He cursed Anasûrimbor Moënghus and his monstrous son. He thought, So be it.

Look at the repetition and progression: thoughts of women's beauty lead to an offset paragraph that thinks about proyas which leads to masturbation/ground funking and thinking about loving moenghus.

 

thinking about beautiful women makes him think about proyas and then moenghus

[Kalbear]

Ah. I didn't get that Cnaiur was in love, just attracted. Though that first paragraph makes it more sound like Proyas wants Cnaiur, not the other way around. 

But yeah, prepping Proyas for Cnaiur would be an interesting narrative arc. They're both like 70 now, right? Let's go for that lemonparty with gusto. 

[Rhom]

Huh...

I'm learning things about books I read years ago.  Never knew Kellhus had engaged in cannibalism in the first series (and embarrassingly missed it here too) and certainly never thought about Nayu hate fucking the ground-as-Proyas.   

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

1 hour ago, Hello World said:

I'm curious about the wording here. Kellhus learned of the head on the pole? So it's not something that he created?

No, not something that he has created. It seems that the head on the pole is Onkis. The Goddess of The Darkness That Comes Before. And if Locke's theory is correct, and I assume it is, the first God/Goddess that was used by the Nonmen to "create" the 100. There is a song by the boatman that this comes from.