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Bakker: The Great Ordeal SPOILER THREAD pt. II


kuenjato

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The only thing I can think of when I see Ciphrang is cipher, which has its ultimate origins in the Arabic word for zero.   But Bakker prefers Greeky stuff for his technical terms, so dunno.

 

Re: someone asking somewhere if we've ever seen someone not damned, here's a Mimara line from TJE

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The way good men shine brighter than good women.

 

 

thinking about how the world looks with through the Eye.  So yeah, Mimara has seen people who aren't damned, and they shine rather than burn.

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4 hours ago, PapushiSun said:

He's a great character in PoN but his arc is resolved. It makes sense that the Consult would make use of him, but what's the narrative point of him? He spent the whole trilogy raging against himself, the world, and Moenghus before getting an excellent resolution.

Yeah, even Bakker himself agrees with that, http://forum.three-seas.com/topics/1004

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As it stands, I think it's perfect, it's the way Cnaiur's arc simply has to end. Beyond that...

 

4 hours ago, Cithrin's Ale said:

It's just frustrating to spend years speculating about the WLW and Psatma only for them to end like that. I know not every part of the books can have a grand slam of a finale, but bleh.

Totally agree. People spent all this time theorizing about the WLW and how time works in Earwa to try to figure out how Kellhus could avoid being killed by him when it seemed so inevitable, or if he will manage to not get killed by him. Instead the resolution was that one of the gods decided to just stop the WLW. And why? Because some kid accidentally made an offering to an idol while playing, and we conveniently find out that this god likes to 'troll' people in this very book.

This is why I said earlier if Bakker had revealed this stuff about Ajokli earlier in the series (like in PoN) it would have been so much better. People would have actually had the chance to try and figure out how the WLW might be stopped while speculating between JE/WLW and TGO, but no.

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7 minutes ago, Hello World said:

I'm talking about Ajokli using his god powers to stop the WLW because of what was revealed about him in the library.

So, you think the scene in the library was done too late? What prompted Kelmommas to learn of Ajokli is the fact that the WLW was living in the palace and he was watching him. I think it was done very well. What Kel thinks he's learning of the Narindar, is in fact what we're learning of Kel. 

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I'm confused about the WLW.

The way the WLW works is that he is lucky, that is everything that happens, happens exactly as he needs them to happen. An analogy might be: I'm a hurry and all the traffic lights on my route are green regardless of the route I take. But whenever we see the WLW perspective, he seems to be seeing the future and acting to take advantage of his knowledge. To apply it the analogy: I know beforehand that all the lights will be green on 1 particular route, so I take that route.


There's a contradiction in the way the WLW is described to work and how he actually seems to work. In TGO he goes looking for fruit in one chapter. What he does is go to certain place and waits. Sure enough someone comes by with apples and one falls off which he takes. He knew in advance when and where the apples would be and that one would fall off and positions himself to take advantage of his knowledge.

Kelmomas witnesses the apple episode and comes to the conclusion that everything has already happened. Koringhus reaches the same conclusion after his first experience with the Judging Eye. (I wonder where Bakker is going with this? Not Dark Tower I hope)

When the WLW moves to kill Kellhus, Kelmomas calls out and interrupts the WLW. In all the visions the WLW had of killing Kellhus, there is never any sign of Kelmomas in the vicinity (I can't remember if Esmenet or anyone else was ever in those visions). Kelmomas does something new when he calls out for his mother, something the WLW didn't see in his visions, something that didn't happen before.

According to the Librarian Kelmomas goes to see, the WLW is a vessel of Ajokli. But the current one is of Yatwer.

Could Sorweel be a WLW? He seems to lucky in some ways and Oinaral seemed to think that Sorweel was lucky as well.

I have no idea how put these together, they remain disjointed thoughts. Any thoughts would be welcome.

 

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I went back to read TWP but where Saubon sees his own dead body on the Battleplain, and then kept reading. I was struck by how different Bakker's writing was during the first trilogy. Much simpler prose and without much less philosophical navel gazing from any of the point of views. It was really refreshing. Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy the TAE books, but Bakker managed to handle some complex world building and philosophical concepts in a much less heavy handed (and IMO better) way in PON. 

Also, wonder if the Saubon death scene in TGO was a retrofit or planned since TWP. Doesn't fit perfectly. In TWP the body is clearly already dead as opposed to dying and trying to speak. And the explanation in TWP is about people dying on the Battleplan getting stuck there because in some sense the NoGod is still there. 

Unrelated thought: Koringus has 100 stones and kills 99 birds. Unclear why he did this. Was it for food? Anyone have a guess? At any rate the tie in to the Hundred is explicit in the types of birds he kills, including a stork. The last stone is used by the boy to knock a skin spy off a cliff. So I would theorize that the skin spy represents one of the Hundred in the same way a stork represents Yatwer. Leading me to guess that the NoGod is in fact one of the hundred. The one that is the head on the pole. Onkis?

The God splintered not into 100 but into 99 and 1. As if some physical law of conservation applied and the NoGod Cheong created outside the causal system is necessary to balance the creation of the splintered 99. 

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7 minutes ago, unJon said:

Much simpler prose and without much less philosophical navel gazing from any of the point of views.

I think with PoN, the philosophical discussions and the characters' introspections, were much better integrated with the broader storyline. They don't interrupt the storylines. The philosophy and the narrative felt evenly blended. With the Aspect-Emperor, Bakker stops the narrative in middle of scenes and even conversations to expound some philosophy and character introspection. The scene where Koringhus appears stops for Akka to think how tired he is. Three or four paragraphs worth.

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Koringus has 100 stones and kills 99 birds. Unclear why he did this. Was it for food?

PTSD. Koringhus has been damaged by his experiences in the battle against the invaders. He spent years fighting them in the darkness and he has been seriously affected. He considers himself broken as well.

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1 hour ago, PapushiSun said:

 

PTSD. Koringhus has been damaged by his experiences in the battle against the invaders. He spent years fighting them in the darkness and he has been seriously affected. He considers himself broken as well.

Maybe. If true there's an in-world explanation about the insane being more open to the Outside. So the hundred stones is even more loaded. 

Also works as foreshadowing for Kellhus killing the Hundred or 99 of them. A Dunyain took 100 stones and killed 99 symbols of the gods. 

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10 hours ago, Hello World said:

Yeah, even Bakker himself agrees with that, http://forum.three-seas.com/topics/1004

 

Totally agree. People spent all this time theorizing about the WLW and how time works in Earwa to try to figure out how Kellhus could avoid being killed by him when it seemed so inevitable, or if he will manage to not get killed by him. Instead the resolution was that one of the gods decided to just stop the WLW. And why? Because some kid accidentally made an offering to an idol while playing, and we conveniently find out that this god likes to 'troll' people in this very book.

This is why I said earlier if Bakker had revealed this stuff about Ajokli earlier in the series (like in PoN) it would have been so much better. People would have actually had the chance to try and figure out how the WLW might be stopped while speculating between JE/WLW and TGO, but no.

The first trilogy, the Gods in general were very, very quiet. Besides Gilgoal "being present" in a few battle scenes (Saubon, Cnaiur), they were absent "direct" movements in the first trilogy. Even the Gilgoal references seemed not to have a "possessed" aspect, rather, just the interpretation of people who saw them. 

E.g., "he's a great warrior, wow, Gilgoal must have blessed him."

The larger shock for me reading The Aspect Emperor years ago, was that the Gods had more direct influence and actions.

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Yeah, TJE shocked me (as I mentioned in like ... the first or second TJE thread years ago) because I had assumed the Gods weren't real.  My impression from the first trilogy was there was an Outside, and there was spooky stuff out there, but not necessarily anything comporting to anything of the major religions.

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3 hours ago, redjako said:

The first trilogy, the Gods in general were very, very quiet. Besides Gilgoal "being present" in a few battle scenes (Saubon, Cnaiur), they were absent "direct" movements in the first trilogy. Even the Gilgoal references seemed not to have a "possessed" aspect, rather, just the interpretation of people who saw them. 

E.g., "he's a great warrior, wow, Gilgoal must have blessed him."

The larger shock for me reading The Aspect Emperor years ago, was that the Gods had more direct influence and actions.

Yea, this why I was a bit confused about @Hello World's complaint. Most people disnt think the Gods had any agency in Earwa during PoN. But, it became clearer throughout TAE that they indeed did. And, I felt there were enough clues/evidence that Kelmommas was and agent of Ajokli and would somehow thwart his plans.

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Actually, I didn't complain that a god simply interfered. But it doesn't matter.

21 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

And, I felt there were enough clues/evidence that Kelmommas was and agent of Ajokli and would somehow thwart his plans.

What where the clues that Ajokli was going to stop the WLW? I don't recall anyone theorizing this before the book came out, and my guess is if someone did people would have probably laughed at him(/her). Actually, this reminds me, as far we know, not one woman has read this book yet, right?

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13 minutes ago, Hello World said:

Actually, I didn't complain that a god simply interfered. But it doesn't matter.

What where the clues that Ajokli was going to stop the WLW? I don't recall anyone theorizing this before the book came out, and my guess is if someone did people would have probably laughed at him(/her). Actually, this reminds me, as far we know, not one woman has read this book yet, right?

I theorized that Kelmommas would kill that WLW and that he was an agent of Ajokli. The clue were that Kel was an agent of Ajokli. Like i said it didn't go down like I thought, but I was in the ball park. 

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13 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

I theorized that Kelmommas would kill that WLW and that he was an agent of Ajokli. The clue were that Kel was an agent of Ajokli. Like i said it didn't go down like I thought, but I was in the ball park. 

I think the thing that came out of the entire blue that was a bit...well, special...was Ajokli being able to interrupt the WLW and entirely change the causal chain of coming before and after. That was especially weird given that the WLW killed a Narindar and took his place first, and there was no sign that any causal weirdness was going to happen then (and it went precisely like WLW remembered it, too). Ajokli's ability to stop things that you most desire was first revealed in this book, right? 

Kel's connection to Ajokli was foreshadowed for some time. The problem is the randomness of the powers that gods have, at least for me. They can apparently cause earthquakes (no, I don't think they predict them, because Momemn isn't apparently prone to earthquakes all that often and one hitting at that moment was too useful to be mere coincidence). They can entirely mask someone's feelings. They can cause an entire block chain of the universe to unfold differently. They can power up people. They can create WLWs which are infallible except for other gods. And all of that was revealed in this book. The lack of set up is really unfortunate and clumsy and unearned. 

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2 hours ago, Dickwad Poster #3784 said:

Momemn isn't apparently prone to earthquakes all that often and one hitting at that moment was too useful to be mere coincidence

One of the characters tells Esmenet that he survived one when he was younger and warns her to expect aftershocks. Suggests that Momemn is prone to earthquakes.

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