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Bakker: The Great Ordeal SPOILER THREAD pt. II


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13 hours ago, Rhom said:

When is the chorae in the ceiling mentioned?

The WLW passages keep making a big deal about Esmi and "catch."  Then Kellhus says "What have you done?"  I thought she had given the Narindar a chorae.

:dunno: 

Prologue: Momemn, p. 42 in the Nook version:

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She found the towering doors to the Imperial Audience Hall ajar.  She wandered in, walked small beneath the soaring stonework.  She pondered all the loads teetering, and the Sumni harlot within her wondered that such a place could be her house, that she lived beneath ceilings impregnated with Chorae, gilded in silver and gold.

Note also the very subtle foreshadowing of the earthquakes.

45 minutes ago, unJon said:

Would be interesting to see if mentioned in TDTCB. 

A quick search of the Xerius scenes doesn't make any hint about Chorae in the ceilings, but it's totally possible I missed it.

 

Also, while looking for the Chorae quote, in the first Momemn chapter, the WLW pretty much tells us exactly what is going to happen, and I didn't catch it at the time nor remember it until just now:

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Blaring horns.  A black city roiling, bracing.

"Catch."

The rooves slump, first to one knee, then another.  The Mother sheds her tear, gives what has been given. He watches himself cast what is broken, sees the Aspect-Emperor stumble, then vanish beneath the Mother's heel.

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1 hour ago, WrathOfTinyKittens said:

Also, while looking for the Chorae quote, in the first Momemn chapter, the WLW pretty much tells us exactly what is going to happen, and I didn't catch it at the time nor remember it until just now:

Thanks for the quote!

And that second quote really is something to see.  Its so subtle that you never would have associated it with an earthquake, but after seeing the climax of TGO; its quite clear.  Hmph.  Well done.

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1 hour ago, Rhom said:

Thanks for the quote!

And that second quote really is something to see.  Its so subtle that you never would have associated it with an earthquake, but after seeing the climax of TGO; its quite clear.  Hmph.  Well done.

I wonder, so does this show that Yatwer doesn't see ALL of time? That she glimpses it piece by piece as things change? So, was the WLW doomed to fail the whole time? It really adds a lot to Sorweel's arc that the WLW failed.

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11 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

I wonder, so does this show that Yatwer doesn't see ALL of time? That she glimpses it piece by piece as things change? So, was the WLW doomed to fail the whole time? It really adds a lot to Sorweel's arc that the WLW failed.

the 100 are not only blind, they are blind to their own blindness; based on the WLW POV, Yatwer did not foresee his failure

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3 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

I wonder, so does this show that Yatwer doesn't see ALL of time? That she glimpses it piece by piece as things change? So, was the WLW doomed to fail the whole time? It really adds a lot to Sorweel's arc that the WLW failed.

My personal crack-pot theory is that Yatwer doesn't see the future at all.  To me, it is something like the following:

The Gods are the Darkness that Comes Before.  What arises from that Darkness they can read the implications of.  So, what they see is basically a chain of cause and effect, because (when?) they are themselves the main cause.  This could be why Yatwer's vision isn't 100% clear, there tends to be more than one cause at play, but She does seem to see the most of it (because (when?) She is the most of it) when it comes to the WLW.  In fact, perhaps that is what the WL is, Her moving (as the Darkness) to line events up and place the WLW in the most advantageous place within the chain of cause and effect.

So, what She can't see are those totally outside the Darkness.  That is, those who are self-moving souls, not moved by the Darkness at all and so outside the chain of cause and effect that She (or any of the Gods) can read.

This is probably a totally Swiss cheese theory, as I haven't really thought out all the implications of it.

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Nin'janjin's astrologers had spied Imburil, the star that Men call the Nail of Heaven, long before it waxed.  But they had no forewarning of the calamity to come three years following.

pg 341 in da overlook bewk

So, the Nail of Heaven appears 3 years prior to the Ark.  I'm assuming the Inchies came out their warp-gate somewhere outside the solar system in order to decelerate, hence the delay?  Why were they unable to decelerate appropriately? 

Moreover, the entire purpose of a warp-gate is so you don't arrive in system traveling a zillion miles an hour - why go fast if you have a portal?

 

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48 minutes ago, Damned with the Wind said:

So, the Nail of Heaven appears 3 years prior to the Ark.  I'm assuming the Inchies came out their warp-gate somewhere outside the solar system in order to decelerate, hence the delay?  Why were they unable to decelerate appropriately? 

Moreover, the entire purpose of a warp-gate is so you don't arrive in system traveling a zillion miles an hour - why go fast if you have a portal?

 

I noticed that line as well on my read through.  I also wondered why it took three years from appearance to Ark-fall.

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someone needs to assemble all of the descriptions of the nail here so that we might determine if there are stellar parallax calculations to be made based on descriptions thereof at different times of the year, assuming that the seasonal references in the chapter datelines correlate to a solar cycle,  rather than some fantasy astronomy.  once the distance to the nail is determined via parallax, we might infer therefrom the velocity of the ark from the time of its excretion from nail to the crash.

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1 hour ago, sologdin said:

someone needs to assemble all of the descriptions of the nail here so that we might determine if there are stellar parallax calculations to be made based on descriptions thereof at different times of the year, assuming that the seasonal references in the chapter datelines correlate to a solar cycle,  rather than some fantasy astronomy.  once the distance to the nail is determined via parallax, we might infer therefrom the velocity of the ark from the time of its excretion from nail to the crash.

What he said.

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2 hours ago, Damned with the Wind said:

So, the Nail of Heaven appears 3 years prior to the Ark.  I'm assuming the Inchies came out their warp-gate somewhere outside the solar system in order to decelerate, hence the delay?  Why were they unable to decelerate appropriately? 

Moreover, the entire purpose of a warp-gate is so you don't arrive in system traveling a zillion miles an hour - why go fast if you have a portal?

 

That passage is ambiguous as to whether the ark crashed three years after the Nail appeared or waxed. I read as after waxes. 

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I read it as Discovery+3 years = Ark crash with its waxing being indeterminate.   The usage of long by Nonmen actually made me wonder if the Nail somehow waxed after the crash and how that might be possible.

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So I finished the book. I'm not sure how I feel about it yet. There were parts I enjoyed immensely.

But I did not care for Momemn at all. The three interesting people there - Maitha, Thelli and Inrilatas, are all dead. Which blows. The little turd is still alive and Esmenet's chapters have always been a drag in the second trilogy.  

So from what we know this far, the likeliest game plan for Kellhus is to eliminate the Consult and shut of the world to the outside, yeah? Don't think he'll want to burn in hell and I don't think he'll have the same chance to skate as Koringhus - would be a pretty big cop out for him to also get to talk to the Eye.

Kellhus comparing himself to Titirga seemed really stupid to me - I've gotten the assumption that nobody comes even close to challenging Kellhus, like Usain Bolt comparing himself to some hobby runner. Or perhaps he's not that far ahead, and the comparison isn't completely unwarranted?

A bunch of other things come to mind. So Golgotterath only knows of the Dunyain by third party descriptions still I guess? That is, they have no knowledge of their origin and they probably didn't manage to capture any from Isual. Harapior's description of the Dunyain methods to Serwa sounded a lot like a direct quotation from Cnaiur. 

I'm a bit fuzzy on the gods.

What does Kellhus mean by this quote with regards to Gods?

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"His was a power and potency that not even the Gods, who must ration themselves across all times, could hope to counter, short of scooping themselves hollow and forever dwelling as phantoms"

Regarding Koringhus' thoughts.. Is the Zero-God the same thing as God of Gods and the Solitary God the Fanim praise? I found it odd that Koringhus named it the Zero Principle the way the Nonment called Yatwer the Fertility Principle. If there's a parallel here, they're likely both one of the 'hundred', no? But from Mimara's description, the Zero Principle has the ability to invite people to join the Absolute and I figure the 'judging eye' is the closest POV we can trust. 

So the best case scenario for Men is to become part of the Absolute - all-encompassing soul, time and materiality? And for Nonmen to not only dodge hell but also the Absolute? Sounds like the Absolute wouldn't be that bad of an option for them - how come they don't even consider it?

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The manner in which Koringhus describes the Zero-God is the same manner in which Kellhus describes the God of Gods to Achamian in TTT.

 

However, the Solitary God is an entirely different concept.  The God of Gods (from what we've seen) in Bakkerverse is very much a part of Bakkerverse, broken and constrained by its metaphysics.  The Solitary God has more in common with the Abrahamic God, it's unrestrained, all-knowing, all-powerful, exists outside 'existence' sorta thing.  Hence, iirc, the Cishaurim seek Oblivion like Nonmen, because they think the Outside is just another level of reality rather than the true afterlife.

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13 minutes ago, akh said:

Regarding Koringhus' thoughts.. Is the Zero-God the same thing as God of Gods and the Solitary God the Fanim praise? I found it odd that Koringhus named it the Zero Principle the way the Nonment called Yatwer the Fertility Principle. If there's a parallel here, they're likely both one of the 'hundred', no? But from Mimara's description, the Zero Principle has the ability to invite people to join the Absolute and I figure the 'judging eye' is the closest POV we can trust. 

Per Koringhus, sort of no.

The God of Gods is a transcendent one - which would mean that it's sort of like a being, a personage, who has thoughts and actions and consciousness. This does not exist.

The Solitary God is an immanent one - one that exists as part of the universe and is the universe, but sets the rules and is all powerful. This is closer, but no; it doesn't have the connection to us that Koringhus' god has.

The Zero-God is a place, the place. It is the fundament of the universe. It doesn't exist as a thing that desires or wants or needs or anything. It is everything and everything is it, and we are all God and God is all of us. This type of God is more closely related to the Buddha soul as well as being related to something like, say, the planck length or the speed of light in a vacuum. It is beyond life and time. Damnation is such because you hurt the God, which is to say you hurt each other. You attempt to deceive or lie to God when you lie to each other. You harm yourself and God when you harm each other. 

13 minutes ago, akh said:

So the best case scenario for Men is to become part of the Absolute - all-encompassing soul, time and materiality? And for Nonmen to not only dodge hell but also the Absolute? Sounds like the Absolute wouldn't be that bad of an option for them - how come they don't even consider it?

Everyone is always part of the Absolute, because everyone is everyone else at all times. It only takes a lateral thinking to get there, as Koringhus did. Being part of the Absolute means simply breaking the cycle of souls that go from the Outside to the Inside and back. It means that difficult to reach aspect - redemption.  For whatever reason - likely because the Nonmen morality and physiology won't allow them to consider it - nonmen don't believe that they can achieve redemption, and instead seek oblivion - to be unnoticed. Redemption is the opposite here - it is not only being noticed, but becoming one with everything - the ultimate attention. That appears to be anathema  to Nonmen on a fundamental cultural level. 

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3 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

The God of Gods is a transcendent one - which would mean that it's sort of like a being, a personage, who has thoughts and actions and consciousness. This does not exist.

The Solitary God is an immanent one - one that exists as part of the universe and is the universe, but sets the rules and is all powerful. This is closer, but no; it doesn't have the connection to us that Koringhus' god has.

 

You got it backwards.

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30 minutes ago, Damned with the Wind said:

You got it backwards.

Ah, you're right. The inrithic God is immanent. The solitary is transcendent. The concepts are correct though, and the more important thing is that both are not what koringhus thinks.

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21 hours ago, Kalbear said:

I'm totally going to get a chuck tingle cover for this, like "pounded in the butt by the thousand fold thought" or something.

AS BAKKER FORESAW YOU WOULD ALL ALONG

#1 NYT bestseller

 

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