Bakker: The Great Ordeal SPOILER THREAD pt. II

[jurble]

So what's the deal with the trees in Kuniuri

Quote

Ever since returning to Kuniuri she has noticed the oddness to the trees, an arthritic angularity, as if they would sooner raise fists than leaves to the sky.

Just some color? Or are there horticulturists lurking in the forests?

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

2 minutes ago, Damned with the Wind said:

So what's the deal with the trees in Kuniuri

Just some color? Or are there horticulturists lurking in the forests?

Bakker and trees could be its own set of threads.  There is a massive amount of symbolism tied up in trees in both trilogies.  In this particular case, I just interpreted it as a callback to the spirit of Kuniuri, how they fought and resisted, but that's not based on anything in particular.

[PapushiSun]

What was the point Sorweel's helmet? Why did the Nonmen put in on him?

[.H.]

7 minutes ago, WrathOfTinyKittens said:

Bakker and trees could be its own set of threads.  There is a massive amount of symbolism tied up in trees in both trilogies.  In this particular case, I just interpreted it as a callback to the spirit of Kuniuri, how they fought and resisted, but that's not based on anything in particular.

I took it as pointing in the same direction that the oddness of the trees in The Mop seemed to point, that both places were low-level Topoi and that it effects even unsouled things like trees.

[sologdin]

14 minutes ago, PapushiSun said:

What was the point Sorweel's helmet? Why did the Nonmen put in on him?

the amiolas contained the mind of immiriccas, an ancient cunuroi criminal.  the helmet merged immy's mind with sorwa's.  the purpose: "to parlay one must understand [...] to understand one must be" (210).  that's how sorwa understands all of the discussions in ishterebinth and recognizes people.  

in bakhtinian terms, it converts the discourse of the other, chuzhoi, into one's own discourse, svoi, part of the impossible dream of fantasy linguistics herein of resistance-free signification.  it's brilliant as a narrative technique here, allowing for exposition hidden in plain sight.

 

[Kalnestk Oblast]

The helmet also shows an incredible facet of neuroscience that could truly make the world amazing, but somehow I don't think bakker meant it that way.

[PapushiSun]

Thanks sologdin.

 

22 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

The helmet also shows an incredible facet of neuroscience that could truly make the world amazing

Tel us, tell us.

[unJon]

Found this tidbit in TWP. Awesome Mimara foreshadowing. This is the end of the scene where Esmi tells Kellhus and Serwa that she sold Mimara to slavers:

 

And she remembered weeping as she’d never wept before, because she’d spoken, and he had heard. She remembered drifting in his confidence, in his poetry, in his godlike knowledge of what was right and true … In his absolution.

“You are forgiven, Esmenet.”

Who are you to forgive?

“Mimara.”

[kuenjato]

2 hours ago, PapushiSun said:

What was the point Sorweel's helmet? Why did the Nonmen put in on him?

Handy exposition device. 

[Kalnestk Oblast]

2 hours ago, PapushiSun said:

Thanks sologdin.

 

Tel us, tell us.

Okay, assume that you have the ability to alter a brain to have the thought processes of another person, but just for a while. You can now literally be in the other persons views to see how they are feeling and not only know it but feel it, sympathize and empathize with it. You can understand others at a visceral level. You can understand their cultural idioms, you can see their origin story. 

Imagine if you could truly get every single loved one in your life. Or the people who you work with. Imagine taking a vacation as not just another place but another person.

There are lots of scary things there too, but I remain convinced that people in general want to experience and enjoy empathy and compassion. It is one of the best ways to increase personal joy. And because of that I think people will seek to increase empathy.

[Larry of the Lake]

On 7/24/2016 at 2:53 PM, sologdin said:

 

to go with the troy stuff, supra, AK is plainly hektor as he should have been in that moment.

Hmm... I'd go with Kellhus = Priam, Kelmomas and Inrilatus could be Paris for the shit storm they've stirred up, Achamian =Odysseus.  Although Esmi is probably the best Helen candidate, which would make Akka Menelaus and Kellhus Paris.  In which case maybe Maithanet is Hector.  

 

Could also go with first trilogy, where there's a decent Agamemnon / Achilles dynamic between Nayu and Kelly fighting over Serwe.  

 

Feel like I'm missing something here with Sorwheel , Lil Moe, and Serwa. Maybe some kind of Elektra / Orestes dealio split three ways.   

 

Is Mimara Aeneas?  

In unrelated speculation, I'm looking forward to the scene where Proyas and Kayutas go full cannibal for the first time:

Proyas: Did I ever tell you about the time your old man convinced me he was bullshit?

Kayutas: I read it in your face the first time I saw you thereafter.  Now finish your man-soup, Golgotterath awaits. Delicious.  Its like sizzling lamb, eh?

 

[Rhom]

5 hours ago, kuenjato said:

Handy exposition device. 

That was what I saw it as.  An enjoyable way to give background without just a huge info dump or needing Oinuras to explain everything constantly.

As to in story reasons though, I never quite fully understood why Serwa/Moe were dead if he removed it.

[jurble]

My impression is that Oiranal meant that without the amiolas, Sorweel can't understand and speak, can't tell Oirunas to wreck shit and save them.

[Grizzly Mormont]

what the hell happened in the throne room? did someone get hit in the neck with a sword?
 

[Grizzly Mormont]

no, with esmi and kelhus and kelmomas

 

[LuckyCharms]

5 minutes ago, Triskan said:

A question I have about Throne Room though is when did Serwa get her Emilidis-crafted collar removed? 

Can't resist my pedantry, but the Ilculcu Rift/Sky-Beneath-the-Mountain and the Throne Room are completely different locales.

The Iron Concavity honestly reminded me of the Star Wars prequels, specifically the Senate House of the Republic.  A massive spherical building with balconies and mezzanines on the equator, and the Chancellor/King having their floating dais in the center.  Except much creepier—and less gaudy chrome.  I can't imagine that Scott is a Star Wars fan though.

[Grizzly Mormont]

So can someone give me a brief summary of the sequence of events in the throne room in Momemn between narindar, esmenet, kelhus and kelmomas?

 

[Darth Richard II]

Don't be silly, all people are Star Wars fans.

[jurble]

17 minutes ago, Triskan said:

 

A question I have about Throne Room though is when did Serwa get her Emilidis-crafted collar removed? 

She doesn't, iirc.  Harapior stuffs her mouth while saying he's never seen anyone survive casting while wearing an agonic collar, he's not going to take chances.  It's possible that Sorweel holds the chorae against it to negate its effects, though.  That part is unclear.

 

A question I have: Why doesn't Kellhus manufacture flying chariots?  They seem like a simple Anagogic construction - a chariot and horseshoes with something as simple, "Walk on air as if on land."  A fleet of sky chariots for the Few would offer them substantial protection against chorae strikes (assuming they function similar to other sorcerous items and only temporarily cease to function for the duration of the physical contact between chorae and object) and increase their mobility (because the horses move in the sky faster than the sorcerers).

[Kalnestk Oblast]

9 minutes ago, Grizzly Mormont said:

So can someone give me a brief summary of the sequence of events in the throne room in Momemn between narindar, esmenet, kelhus and kelmomas?

 

No one actually knows. Seriously. We think that another earthquake hit, masonry fell, a chorae might have come close to Kellhus, Esmi might have died.