Heresy 189

[Brad Stark]

20 minutes ago, Tucu said:

If BR has the ability to manipulate time he didn't use it to stop the Tragedy at Summerhall or change the outcome of Robert's Rebellion. Maybe he couldn't or these events had to happen for a higher purpose. We can speculate in a similar way for for Bran; why didn't he save Ned, Cat and/or Robb; or why he left Arya and Sansa so suffer?

GRRM has said we won't see characters with Godlike power on screen, so there has to be some limits to what BR and Bran can change.  We also don't know if Summerhall or Roberts Rebellion are things BR would change if he could.

[Arry'sFleas]

10 hours ago, LynnS said:

Which brings Hodor to mind.  Maybe the door fell on his head while he poking around in the crypts and that's why he came out saying Hodor.

not sure how this relates to the discussion.

[LynnS]

It was a joke .... that fell flat. 

[Lady Dyanna]

8 hours ago, Yield. said:

True. The fact that Bran doubts the veracity of the experience can also been seen as his present self not having initiated the contact. There is nothing here that excludes the possibility of future Bran having connected with both his past self and Jon through Ghost.

It's enough to drive you crazy isn't it? Just like everything else in the series there's nothing that definitively precludes either option. It's all in how you choose to interpret it. 

8 hours ago, Yield. said:

Or Bloodraven using both Bran and Ghost/Jon at the same time. The thing that stands out in this contact is that Bran appears as weirwood when no other contact between wolves ever has that kind of imagery in it. Nor indeed do any of the other contacts between wolf and Stark siblings. Mind you there is no indirect contact between Stark sibling save this one. No other Stark has contacted their brother or sister's wolf at all, which is strange. If the wolves can connect with each other at anytime, as proved by Ghost in Dance, then why have the Starks not connected with their siblings while in their wolves? Arya dreams of Nymeria nightly at one point, Bran is constantly in Summer, and Jon is frequently in Ghost. How have we had no contact between Starks while in their wolves? Strange coincidence that.

This part actually gives me an idea. This is also the only time that it's possible that we see communication through a ward type bond in which those communicating might be on opposite sides of the wall. (That is if Bran/Summer are in Winterfell and Jon/Ghost in the Skirling Pass.) Maybe it is necessary to use the Weirnet to communicate from one side of the wall to the other?

8 hours ago, Yield. said:

The problem here is that Bran at this point in the story has no idea he will ever be wed to a tree. In fact he's no idea he truly is a greenseer and no connection yet to the weirwoods. Bran's still doubting the truth of what Jojen is telling him, and his connection to the Winterfell heart tree is just a ritual/religious one. So why have him appear as weirwood? Foreshadowing? That's about as subtle as an anvil on the head if that's the only reason Martin put that little scene in the way he did. Or is it that the Starks can't speak to each other without the use of the weirnet and their wolves? There must be a reason why this is the only instance of two Starks having a conversation directly.

Interesting. Is it possible that only those with Greenseer abilities can communicate with others over distance, even if those others are large or skinchangers? Not even V6 mentions this as one of his abilities. 

[Yield.]

3 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

It's enough to drive you crazy isn't it? Just like everything else in the series there's nothing that definitively precludes either option. It's all in how you choose to interpret it. 

Just about, lol! The only thing truly driving me round the twist is Martin taking his sweet time in putting out TWoW. This is what happens when we've too much time on our hands

 

6 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

This part actually gives me an idea. This is also the only time that it's possible that we see communication through a ward type bond in which those communicating might be on opposite sides of the wall. (That is if Bran/Summer are in Winterfell and Jon/Ghost in the Skirling Pass.) Maybe it is necessary to use the Weirnet to communicate from one side of the wall to the other?

This is definitely a possibility. I'd add that the wolves need to be involved as well. Bran has no problem finding and inhabiting Summer while he's in the warded cave. (What did Voice call it, a ski resort? LOL!) And while there is disagreement on this one, Ghost definitely knows that Summer is in the upper northern cold, while his brother and sister are in warmer climates. So neither the Wall nor the cave seem to prevent the wolves from connecting with each other. I don't believe that it stopped Jon feeling Ghost either, but that is a whole n'other argument.

And yet we only see these two connecting in a wolf dream with a weirwood in it. If they could connect through their wolves or the weirnet alone I think we would've seen an instance of this by now. We do get that one time with Theon though at the WF heart tree, but that seemed like it was real time for both Bran and Theon. Since neither Jon nor Arya have been near a weirwood in yonks, there is no way to tell if Bran can talk to them that way.

 

22 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Interesting. Is it possible that only those with Greenseer abilities can communicate with others over distance, even if those others are large or skinchangers? Not even V6 mentions this as one of his abilities. 

Didn't Varamyr say that he sometimes entered the bodies of the women he raped? Or am I miss remembering that. I know he used his animals to herd them to him, but I could've sworn he sometimes forced himself mentally on them as well.

In any case, yes, I think it must be part of the greenseer's ability to do that. Bloodraven tells Bran he's watched him his whole life, including being there in his first dream. That to me sounds like the greenseer can indeed get into the mind of another skinchanger. But can a skinchanger inhabit another skinchanger? We don't know. We do know that skinchangers can inhabit the minds of animals with other skinchangers already in them, and as V6 did, boot them out of their second lives.

And what's up with skinchangers being able to recognise other skinchangers and second lifers on sight? How does that work?

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Lady Dyanna said:

This part actually gives me an idea. This is also the only time that it's possible that we see communication through a ward type bond in which those communicating might be on opposite sides of the wall. (That is if Bran/Summer are in Winterfell and Jon/Ghost in the Skirling Pass.) Maybe it is necessary to use the Weirnet to communicate from one side of the wall to the other?

Or maybe the reason why GRRM pointed out the significance of Jon and Ghost being separated by the Wall was so that we would think about how Bran reached out to Ghost/Jon and wonder how in the heck that was even possible? They both should be on the same side of the Wall when the conversation takes place. I think this may be some evidence to chalk up on the side of Bran "remembering" a future memory. 

[JNR]

21 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Given the ambiguities in all of this I'm still reluctant to go with the time-travelling business.

Not often I find myself on the same side of a debate as Black Crow, but yes. 

Even if Bran were to do something involving weirwoods in the future, his past self would not suddenly remember having done it, any more than his AGOT self "remembers" doing anything from later books. 

Bran never, for instance, remembers skinchanging a weirwood and seeing Ned at prayer in ACOK (even though that's just what he does in ADWD).

As to the paste: I'm pretty sure it's essential to access a weirwood's memories.  This is something Bran never does before the paste. 

But what he did from the crypts to communicate with Jon in ACOK was different -- not accessing a tree's memories, but talking to someone, via the weirnet, in real time, via a dream of the recipient (Jon in that case).

It's exactly the same technique that Bloodraven used to call Bran to come to him, in real time as well. Which is why Bran appears as a weirwood in Jon's dream... just as (IMO!) Bloodraven appears as a weirwood to Bran, in Bran's dreams. Recall what Bran said in ACOK:

Quote

I dream of a tree sometimes. A weirwood, like the one in the godswood. It calls to me.

I know Wolfmaid agrees with me that that tree is Bloodraven.

Notice also: Both of these real-time communication examples (Bran -- Jon, Bloodraven --> Bran) span the Wall, which suggests rather strongly to me that the weirnet (which can be used only by a greenseer) is not subject to the Wall's magic-blocking capabiilties.

[Melifeather]

5 hours ago, JNR said:

It's exactly the same technique that Bloodraven used to call Bran to come to him, in real time as well. Which is why Bran appears as a weirwood in Jon's dream...

Traveling into someone's dream is what I think the definition of "flying" is. LynnS described it as the "moon's eye view". Somehow I think entering the north through the Black Gate may have something to do with bypassing the ward.

[Black Crow]

12 hours ago, LynnS said:

It was a joke .... that fell flat. 

Wot? Like the door? 

[Black Crow]

I think that the importance of this passage may be overlooked:

 "A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. Greenseers. " (Leaf talking about the powers of a greenseer)

A third eye and skinchanging do not a greenseer make. Its the communion with the trees which does that and what's important is this business of wisdom. It's not simply a case of drawing Bran north to the Heart of Darkness because the three-fingered lot need a fresh greenseer, he also needs to be plugged into that wisdom; the wisdom to guide the future and the wisdom not to call back the dead by interfering with the past.

[Black Crow]

And carrying on from that, we've discussed before how Euron sounds as if he may have been a failed candidate; that may be exactly why he is so dangerous - because he has some of the powers but not the wisdom to remain within bounds.

[Melifeather]

When Ghost/Jon sees Bran as a weirwood, the growing sapling is symbolic of Bran's growing powers under Bloodraven's tutelage. Bran's blood makes him a greenseer, but he has to be wedded to the trees to connect. 

Euron has some knowledge...enough to make him very dangerous. He drinks shade of the evening which is made from the inky blue leaves that grow on black-barked trees. He attributes the drink as making it possible for him to tap into some dark resource, so it has similar properties to the weirwood paste. He's the inversion to Bloodraven. He wears a red patch over a blood-red eye. Instead of tapping into weirwood roots he's tapped into something above ground that spreads like kraken tentacles versus weirwood roots. In The Forsaken chapter we learn he has a throne of black skulls versus a weirwood one. His motley crew of attendants are the inversion of the Children. 

[Tucu]

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I think that the importance of this passage may be overlooked:

 "A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. Greenseers. " (Leaf talking about the powers of a greenseer)

A third eye and skinchanging do not a greenseer make. Its the communion with the trees which does that and what's important is this business of wisdom. It's not simply a case of drawing Bran north to the Heart of Darkness because the three-fingered lot need a fresh greenseer, he also needs to be plugged into that wisdom; the wisdom to guide the future and the wisdom not to call back the dead by interfering with the past.

The last time we saw Bran he was laying on his bed on an empty alcove in the rock. No weirwood roots on sight. Then he falls sleep and has the series of visions from the Winterfell heart tree.

Unless the CoTF moved him on his sleep after drugging him with the weirwood paste, I would say that he doesn't need to be plugged into the weirwoods to access their memories.

"Hodor carried Bran back to his chamber, muttering "Hodor" in a low voice as Leaf went before them with a torch. He had hoped that Meera and Jojen would be there, so he could tell them what he had seen, but their snug alcove in the rock was cold and empty. Hodor eased Bran down onto his bed, covered him with furs, and made a fire for them. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees.

Watching the flames, Bran decided he would stay awake till Meera came back. Jojen would be unhappy, he knew, but Meera would be glad for him, He did not remember closing his eyes."

[LynnS]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Wot? Like the door?

LOL!  A cheeky comment on my part, aimed at the Mummer's version of events.  We have this expectation now, from the show that Hodor's condition is a result of Bran skinchanging from the future when it may be as mundane as Walder going into the crypts one day; a rather unsafe environment, and having the door fall on his head.

[Black Crow]

57 minutes ago, Tucu said:

The last time we saw Bran he was laying on his bed on an empty alcove in the rock. No weirwood roots on sight. Then he falls sleep and has the series of visions from the Winterfell heart tree.

Unlike the mummers' version I don't think that we need necessarily see him physically grab hold of a weirwood, any more than he needs to physically take Summer by the scruff of the neck in order to have wolf dreams, the point is that having taken the weirwood paste he's in communion with the trees and his training is not a matter of learning parlour tricks but learning to draw on that wisdom rather than splash around unrestrainedly trying to call back the dead and change the past.

[LynnS]

18 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Unlike the mummers' version I don't think that we need necessarily see him physically grab hold of a weirwood, any more than he needs to physically take Summer by the scruff of the neck in order to have wolf dreams, the point is that having taken the weirwood paste he's in communion with the trees and his training is not a matter of learning parlour tricks but learning to draw on that wisdom rather than splash around unrestrainedly trying to call back the dead and change the past.

Yes, quite right. 

[Melifeather]

Yes. What he said. 

 

No takers on a Euron discussion eh?

[Tucu]

But then the concept of being hooked or plugged into a tree is very loose. A greenseer can wander the earth and still access the trees when needed; maybe he needs to carry some weirwood acorns and have a captive at hand.

[Black Crow]

Johnny Appleseed strikes again, and with that I think its time to open Heresy 190!