Heresy 189

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 189, the latest edition of the quirky thread where we take an in-depth look at the story and in particular what GRRM has referred to as the real conflict, not the Game of Thrones, but the apparent threat which lies in  the North, in the magical otherlands beyond the Wall.

Otherwise Heresy is not of itself a theory but rather a free-flowing and above all a very friendly series of open discussions about the Song of Ice and Ice and Fire.

The strength and the beauty and ultimately the value of Heresy as a critical discussion group is that it reflects diversity and open-ness. This is a thread where ideas can be discussed – and argued – freely, because above all it is about an exchange of ideas and sometimes too a remarkably well informed exchange drawing upon an astonishing broad base of literature ranging through Joseph Conrad’s Heart of Darkness and so many others all to the way to the Táin Bó Cúailnge and the Mabinogion.

If new to the thread, don’t be intimidated by the size and scope of Heresy, or by some of the many ideas we’ve discussed here over the years since it began in 2011. This is very much a come as you are thread with no previous experience required. We’re very welcoming and we’re very good at talking in circles and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes, so just ask. You will neither be monstered, patronized nor directed to follow links, but will be engaged directly. Just be patient and observe the local house rules that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all with great good humour

And just a quick reminder. The run-up to Heresy bicentennial will begin very shortly in Heresy 191 with the first of a series of in-depth essays on various aspects of our discussions over the years. Some will be re-runs of the essays from the original Centennial project; others will be updated to reflect current thinking and some will be entirely new. Some of you have already very kindly volunteered and I look forward to your re-affirming your interest in contributing – or volunteering if you haven’t already done so.

Beyond that, read on…

 

[Black Crow]

And now as usual the slightly spoilerish full text of GRRM's1993  letter to his agent, Ralph Vicinanza. Things have obviously changed a bit since then but a lot of it remains relevant so If you don’t want to know, don’t read on:

October 1993

Dear Ralph,

Here are the first thirteen chapters (170 pages) of the high fantasy novel I promised you, which I'm calling A Game of Thrones. When completed, this will be the first volume in what I see as an epic trilogy with the overall title, A Song of Ice and Fire.

As you know, I don't outline my novels. I find that if I know exactly where a book is going, I lose all interest in writing it. I do, however, have some strong notions as to the overall structure of the story I'm telling, and the eventual fate of many of the principle [sic] characters in the drama.

Roughly speaking, there are three major conflicts set in motion in the chapters enclosed. These will form the major plot threads of the trilogy, intertwining with each other in what should be a complex but exciting (I hope) narrative tapestry. Each of the conflicts presents a major threat to the peace of my imaginary realm, the Seven Kingdoms, and to the lives of the principal characters.

The first threat grows from the enmity between the great houses of Lannister and Stark as it plays out in a cycle of plot, counterplot, ambition, murder, and revenge, with the iron throne of the Seven Kingdoms as the ultimate prize. This will form the backbone of the first volume of the trilogy, A Game of Thrones.

While the lion of Lannister and the direwolf of Stark snarl and scrap, however, a second and greater threat takes shape across the narrow sea, where the Dothraki horselords mass their barbarians hordes for a great invasion of the Seven Kingdoms, led by the fierce and beautiful Daenerys Stormborn, the last of the Targaryen dragonlords. The Dothraki invasion will be the central story of my second volume,A Dance with Dragons.

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life." The only thing that stands between the Seven Kingdoms and and endless night is the Wall, and a handful of men in black called the Night's Watch. Their story will be the heart of my third volume, The Winds of Winter. The final battle will also draw together characters and plot threads left from the first two books and resolve all in one huge climax.

The thirteen chapters on hand should give you a notion as to my narrative strategy. All three books will feature a complex mosaic of intercutting points-of-view among various of my large and diverse cast of players. The cast will not always remains the same. Old characters will die, and new ones will be introduced. Some of the fatalities will include sympathetic viewpoint characters. I want the reader to feel that no one is ever completely safe, not even the characters who seem to be the heroes. The suspense always ratchets up a notch when you know that any character can die at any time.

Five central characters will make it through all three volumes, however, growing from children to adults and changing the world and themselves in the process. In a sense, my trilogy is almost a generational saga, telling the life stories of these five characters, three men and two women. The five key players are Tyrion Lannister, Daenerys Targaryen, and three of the children of Winterfell, Arya, Bran, and the bastard Jon Snow. All of them are introduced at some length in the chapters you have to hand.

This is going to be (I hope) quite an epic. Epic in its scale, epic in its action, and epic in its length. I see all three volumes as big books, running about 700 to 800 manuscript pages, so things are just barely getting underway in the thirteen chapters I've sent you.

I have quite a clear notion of how the story is going to unfold in the first volume, A Game of Thrones. Things will get a lot worse for the poor Starks before they get better, I'm afraid. Lord Eddard Stark and his wife Catelyn Tully are both doomed, and will perish at the hands of their enemies. Ned will discover what happened to his friend Jon Arryn, but before he can act on his knowledge, King Robert will have an unfortunate accident, and the throne will pass to his sullen and brutal son Joffrey, still a minor. Joffrey will not be sympathetic and Ned will be accused of treason, but before he is taken he will help his wife and his daughter escape back to Winterfell.

Each of the contending families will learn it has a member of dubious loyalty in its midst. Sansa Stark, wed to Joffrey Baratheon, will bear him a son, the heir to the throne, and when the crunch comes she will choose her husband and child over her parents and siblings, a choice she will later bitterly rue. Tyrion Lannister, meanwhile, befriend both Sansa and her sister Arya, while growing more and more disenchanted with his own family.

Young Bran will come out of his coma, after a strange prophetic dream, only to discover that he will never walk again. He will turn to magic, at first in the hope of restoring his legs, but later for its own sake. When his father Eddard Stark is executed, Bran will see the shape of doom descending on all of them, but nothing he can say will stop his brother Robb from calling the banners in rebellion. All the north will be inflamed by war. Robb will win several splendid victories, and maim Joffrey Baratheon on the battlefield, but in the end he will not be able to stand against Jaime and Tyrion Lannister and their allies. Robb Stark will die in battle, and Tyrion Lannister will besiege and burn Winterfell.

Jon Snow, the bastard, will remain in the far north. He will mature into a ranger of great daring, and ultimately will succeed his uncle as the commander of the Night's Watch. When Winterfell burns, Catelyn Stark will be forced to flee north with her son Bran and her daughter Arya. Hounded by Lannister riders, they will seek refuge at the Wall, but the men of the Night's Watch give up their families when they take the black, and Jon and Benjen will not be able to help, to Jon's anguish. It will lead to a bitter estrangement between Jon and Bran. Arya will be more forgiving... until she realizes, with terror, that she has fallen in love with Jon, who is not only her half-brother but a man of the Night's Watch, sworn to celibacy. Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Arya throughout the trilogy, until the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book.

Abandoned by the Night's Watch, Catelyn and her children will find their only hope of safety lies even further north, beyond the Wall, where they fall into the hands of Mance Rayder, the King-beyond-the-Wall, and get a dreadful glimpse of the inhuman others as they attack the wildling encampment. Bran's magic, Arya's sword Needle, and the savagery of their direwolves will help them survive, but their mother Catelyn will die at the hands of the others.

Over across the narrow sea, Daenerys Targaryen will discover that her new husband, the Dothraki Khal Drogo, has little interest in invading the Seven Kingdoms, much to her brother's frustration. When Viserys presses his claims past the point of tact or wisdom, Khal Drogo will finally grow annoyed and kill him out of hand, eliminating the Targaryen pretender and leaving Daenerys as the last of her line. Daenerys will bide her time, but she will not forget. When the moment is right, she will kill her husband to avenge her brother, and then flee with a trusted friend into the wilderness beyond Vaes Dothrak. There, hunted by Dothraki bloodriders [?] of her life, she stumbles on a cache of dragon's eggs [?] of a young dragon will give Daenerys the power to bend the Dothraki to her will. Then she begins to plan for her invasion of the Seven Kingdoms.

Tyrion Lannister will continue to travel, to plot, and to play the game of thrones, finally removing his nephew Joffrey in disgust at the boy king's brutality. Jaime Lannister will follow Joffrey on the throne of the Seven Kingdoms, by the simple expedient of killing everyone ahead of him in the line of succession and blaming his brother Tyrion for the murders. Exiled, Tyrion will change sides, making common cause with surviving Starks to bring his brother down, and falling helplessly in love with Arya Stark while he's at it. His passion is, alas, unreciprocated, but no less intense for that, and it will lead to a deadly rivalry between Tyrion and Snow.

[7 Lines Redacted]

But that's the second book...

I hope you'll find some editors who are as excited about all of this as I am. Feel free to share this letter with anyone who wants to know how the story will go.

All best,

George R.R. Martin

What’s in that redacted passage we don’t know but here’s what appears to be the equally spoilerish original synopsis/publisher’s blurb for Winds of Winter; not the forthcoming one, alas, but one apparently dating back to when it was still to be the third volume of the trilogy and following directly on in content and style from the first synopsis set out above:

Continuing the most imaginative and ambitious epic fantasy since The Lord of the Rings Winter has come at last and no man can say whether it will ever go again. The Wall is broken, the cold dead legions are coming south, and the people of the Seven Kingdoms turn to their queen to protect them. But Daenerys Targaryen is learning what Robert Baratheon learned before her; that it is one thing to win a throne and quite another to sit on one. Before she can hope to defeat the Others, Dany knows she must unite the broken realm behind her. Wolf and lion must hunt together, maester and greenseer work as one, all the blood feuds must be put aside, the bitter rivals and sworn enemies join hands. The Winds of Winter tells the story of Dany’s fight to save her new-won kingdom, of two desperate journeys beyond the known world in to the very hearts of ice and fire, and of the final climactic battle at Winterfell, with life itself in the balance.

 

[Black Crow]

Matthew: "There's an interview with D&D where they talk about the idea of whether or not the NK would ever have any dialogue, and they decided against it because he's not supposed to be a villain, or evil; he's supposed to be a force of nature; a figure of death, blight, and winter."

Its an interesting and effective interpretation, but its also one which underlines GRRM's response. This is a figure of the mummers' own creation, rather than one of GRRM's characters shortly to come striding out of the forthcoming pages. The real Night's King is, as he said, no more than a legend.

[Melifeather]

If my theory regarding the wheel of time moving in reverse is true, then the return of the white walkers into the realm is to be expected. What is interesting to me is the timing, because I suspect the official timeline is out of order. It makes more sense to have a pact come after a climactic event rather than to have the pact come before the Long Night.

To review what is already occurring:

3 successive blood magic rituals: Summerhal, tower of joy, and Mirri's tent. These mirror the 3 historical "swords" the Children forged: hammer of waters, white walkers (heart of lion), and the comet hitting Nissa Nissa.

We've already seen the return of the comet

Dany is the source/mother of dragons

Euron and Victarion are symbolically a united Bloodraven and Bittersteel on the verge of a successful "Blackfyre" type rebellion due to securing dragons, and I anticipate that they will invade from the west.

Arianne Martell brought a Dornish marriage proposal to young Griff, who came to Westeros from the Rhoyne river symbolically representing the Rhoynar.

Anticipated:

1) Showdown at either Harrenhal or Gods Eye between "dragons and First Men".

2) King in the North will not kneel.

3) Second Long Night

4) Second hammer of waters

5) End of magic - at least the end of access for humans

6) New Pact

7) Second Dawn Age

[Brad Stark]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Matthew: "There's an interview with D&D where they talk about the idea of whether or not the NK would ever have any dialogue, and they decided against it because he's not supposed to be a villain, or evil; he's supposed to be a force of nature; a figure of death, blight, and winter."

Its an interesting and effective interpretation, but its also one which underlines GRRM's response. This is a figure of the mummers' own creation, rather than one of GRRM's characters shortly to come striding out of the forthcoming pages. The real Night's King is, as he said, no more than a legend.

This is not a figure entirely created by the mummers.  The central plot of the book and show are similar, and The Night's King appears to be a big part of that plot.  The mummers may have combined several characters and made a lot of changes, maybe even to the point GRRM has trouble finding similarities, but the concept of this character originated with GRRM.

[Melifeather]

I know this is not a new idea, but it does make sense to me that the original white walkers were the Last Hero and his friends. The "Others" would be the next group of migrants: the Andals. The text does state that when the Andals arrived some of the First Men aligned themselves with the Children against the Andals. I'm thinking that these First Men were the ones "turned" by the Children.

Edited to add: the official history has been skewed, because I think the maesters wanted to remove themselves from the Pact, but the clues are there that the Nights Watch was primarily an Andal organization.

[Brad Stark]

Is it a fair assumption that the Night's King legend is the last time the Others were seen for a long time?  This story seems to be after the Long Night and after the Watch was started.  If so, the story is probably significant.

[Melifeather]

To expand on my above post..."Others" is just a term to describe a group that is different. Certainly a new group of migrants would be referred to as "others". If it were the allied First Men that were turned into white walkers, this would explain them being called the Kings of Winter, and how they may have been defeated and warded with iron.

[Brad Stark]

3 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I know this is not a new idea, but it does make sense to me that the original white walkers were the Last Hero and his friends. The "Others" would be the next group of migrants: the Andals. The text does state that when the Andals arrived some of the First Men aligned themselves with the Children against the Andals. I'm thinking that these First Men were the ones "turned" by the Children.

Edited to add: the official history has been skewed, because I think the maesters wanted to remove themselves from the Pact, but the clues are there that the Nights Watch was primarily an Andal organization.

I've wondered why they are called "Others".  I suspected there were 2 races, human and children of the forest.  Since White Walkers weren't either one, they were "Others".  But Andals make sense the same way, especially in the context of the pact.

The Watch started before the Andale invasion, if our timelines are correct. It could have been increasingly anglicized (or Andalized) over the years.  

[Black Crow]

21 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

This is not a figure entirely created by the mummers.  The central plot of the book and show are similar, and The Night's King appears to be a big part of that plot.  The mummers may have combined several characters and made a lot of changes, maybe even to the point GRRM has trouble finding similarities, but the concept of this character originated with GRRM.

As I quoted GRRM in Heresy 188; in direct response to a question about the appearance of the Nights King in the mummers version, he said that the Night's King [his one] was a character out of legend in the mythos he had created for the books. The one in the mummers' version is a non-speaking player created by the mummers.

[Brad Stark]

Actually, the watch is even older.  Children gave the watch 100 obsidian daggers during the Age of Heroes, which was before the Long Night.

[Black Crow]

8 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

I've wondered why they are called "Others".  I suspected there were 2 races, human and children of the forest.  Since White Walkers weren't either one, they were "Others".  But Andals make sense the same way, especially in the context of the pact.

The Watch started before the Andale invasion, if our timelines are correct. It could have been increasingly anglicized (or Andalized) over the years.  

There's no reason at all to equate the Andals with the "inhuman Others" - GRRM's description of them. They are the others precisely because they are inhuman and encompass the walkers as well as the other old races.

[Melifeather]

Just now, Black Crow said:

There's no reason at all to equate the Andals with the "inhuman Others" - GRRM's description of them. They are the others precisely because they are inhuman and encompass the walkers as well as the other old races.

Don't you think that depends upon who is telling the story? I'm sure the inhuman Others were First Men turned into white walkers as shown on the mummer's version, but to the Children and First Men the Andals were others to them.

[Brad Stark]

3 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

As I quoted GRRM in Heresy 188; in direct response to a question about the appearance of the Nights King in the mummers version, he said that the Night's King [his one] was a character out of legend in the mythos he had created for the books. The one in the mummers' version is a non-speaking player created by the mummers.

Yes, and the mummers' character has a similar name, which is either because of similarity to the book character or is an amazing coincidence.  Since D&D were familiar the story of the Night's King, I assume the former.

[Black Crow]

19 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Is it a fair assumption that the Night's King legend is the last time the Others were seen for a long time?  This story seems to be after the Long Night and after the Watch was started.  If so, the story is probably significant.

Depends on who's seeing them. This is something we argue long and hard about on heresy with some of us contending that there are enough hints that above the Wall things are different and that while the good folk of Westeros sleep sound in their beds imagining that like the children of the forest the walkers are long dead and gone, they do in fact re-appear as the white shadows in the woods of a dark winter's night

[Black Crow]

3 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Don't you think that depends upon who is telling the story? I'm sure the inhuman Others were First Men turned into white walkers as shown on the mummer's version, but to the Children and First Men the Andals were others to them.

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life." 

 

Don't sound like no Andals to me.

[Black Crow]

2 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Yes, and the mummers' character has a similar name, which is either because of similarity to the book character or is an amazing coincidence.  Since D&D were familiar the story of the Night's King, I assume the former.

That business of discussing whether he should speak or not and deciding that he was an elemental force, and GRRM's own denial, argues otherwise and that all they took was the cool name

[Brad Stark]

4 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Depends on who's seeing them. This is something we argue long and hard about on heresy with some of us contending that there are enough hints that above the Wall things are different and that while the good folk of Westeros sleep sound in their beds imagining that like the children of the forest the walkers are long dead and gone, they do in fact re-appear as the white shadows in the woods of a dark winter's night

It seems like we have 4 periods of Others.

1)  In the Age of Legends, the Children gave the watch 100 obsidian dangers, so the Others were around before the Long Night.  I suspect they are what caused men to agree to the Pact.

2) During the Long Night, when they almost took over and then were beaten some how.

3) The Night's King and his wife fight BTB.

4) After the Night's King, we possibly see shadows north of the wall, but no major battles.

[Tucu]

7 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

It seems like we have 4 periods of Others.

1)  In the Age of Legends, the Children gave the watch 100 obsidian dangers, so the Others were around before the Long Night.  I suspect they are what caused men to agree to the Pact.

2) During the Long Night, when they almost took over and then were beaten some how.

3) The Night's King and his wife fight BTB.

4) After the Night's King, we possibly see shadows north of the wall, but no major battles.

The Age of Heroes extends beyond the Long Night until the Andals brought a modern writing system to Westeros. As far as we know the Others first appeared during the Long Night.

[Brad Stark]

So the age of heroes started with the pact, and we have no evidence for Others before then.  If the Others were a weapon created by the Children, they could have been created when the pact was broken.  Or if we ignore the mummers' version, they could have been created as a weapon by The Night's King.