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Black Crow

Heresy 189

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43 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I think the picture Measter Luwin paints of the Pact is all too roseate. If the Iron Throne was to make such a Pact it would have the authority to enforce it. The hundred kingdoms of men; heroes constantly at war, are not in any position to keep a Pact. It will have been broken constantly in so many little ways and often unthinkingly, until one day the tree-huggers had enough and decided to settle it once and for all.

Very probably, but makes me wonder why not a single contemporary human greenseer worked to prevent the creation of the WW or at least denounce it. Or why not a single human greenseer has told the real story in 8000 years. Do they lack free-will or the motivation has been considered just by all of them?

27 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Aux contraire, the histories are very explicit about the Andal crusaders burning the weirwoods, killing the tree-huggers and forcing those who survived to flee north. They didn't suppress anything but rather gloried in it.

This is were the timeline gets very murky. At the time of the Last Hero the CoTF had abandoned all their known places. Did they repopulate by the time of the Andal invasion (keeping in mind their small number and apparently low reproduction rate)?

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4 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

This is not a figure entirely created by the mummers.  The central plot of the book and show are similar, and The Night's King appears to be a big part of that plot.  The mummers may have combined several characters and made a lot of changes, maybe even to the point GRRM has trouble finding similarities, but the concept of this character originated with GRRM.

Yup.

There are legends of him, but that does not mean he only existed as a legend.

 

3 hours ago, Tucu said:

The Age of Heroes extends beyond the Long Night until the Andals brought a modern writing system to Westeros. As far as we know the Others first appeared during the Long Night.

Yup.

 

2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

So the age of heroes started with the pact, and we have no evidence for Others before then.  If the Others were a weapon created by the Children, they could have been created when the pact was broken.  Or if we ignore the mummers' version, they could have been created as a weapon by The Night's King.

2000 years after the arrival of the First Men in Westeros, the Pact was made.

Following 2000 years of peace and religious conversion, in the years following the Pact, the Others came for the first time.

I do not think anyone ever broke the Pact, until the Andal Invasion, which was 2000 years after the Long Night, iirc. By the time of the Andal Invasion, the First Men and the cotf were for all intents and purposes, integrated. They shared the same gods, and had attained a fair amount of homeostasis. The First Men adapted to the ecology of Westeros.

I think the Others were created by the First Men destroying weirwood trees. They are Westeros' antibodies for the antigen of mankind. Theory on that here, if you're interested. The Giants and cotf balance one another in the same way.

In terms of the timing of the arrival of the Others, and the role of Brandon the Builder, aka, the Last Hero, aka, the 13th man to lead the NW, aka the Night's King, I think I've done a good job explaining that aspect in this theory. While NK may have further militarized the Others, and organized them into a hierarchy (another theory, LOL) he did not create the Others. His story tells us his rise to power came after the Others already existed.

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25 minutes ago, Tucu said:

This is were the timeline gets very murky. At the time of the Last Hero the CoTF had abandoned all their known places. Did they repopulate by the time of the Andal invasion (keeping in mind their small number and apparently low reproduction rate)?

 

Not so.

At the time of the Last Hero's journey, cotf were only difficult to find in the frozen dead lands which he was traversing (today's "North," on his way to Winterfell, imo). We have no reason to assume they were difficult to find anywhere else during that time.

Cotf and First Men fought the Andals together, all across Westeros.

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5 minutes ago, Voice said:

Cotf and First Men fought the Andals together, all across Westeros.

Some, certainly, King Errig immediately springs to mind, but I find it difficult to believe that when the Andal conquest was substantially underpinned by marriage to the local families rather than by imitating a Dothraki horde [without horses] that the extermination of the tree-huggers was not accomplished without the active support of the ind. pop.

And similarly the Starks seemingly had no qualms about butchering them pact or no pact.

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From the World Book

"AS THE FIRST MEN established their realms following the Pact, little troubled them save their own feuds and wars, or so the histories tell us.  It is also from these histories that we learn of the Long Night"

I suspect it was men using White Walkers as weapons that brought on The Long Night, possibly the Night's King or other Starks.  Children may have created the first White Walkers to get men to agree to the Pact, but men learned how to create them as well.  The Knight King legend specifically mentions knowledge being destroyed when he was defeated - I believe this was the knowledge of how to create White Walkers.

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1 minute ago, Black Crow said:

Some, certainly, King Errig immediately springs to mind, but I find it difficult to believe that when the Andal conquest was substantially underpinned by marriage to the local families rather than by imitating a Dothraki horde [without horses] that the extermination of the tree-huggers was not accomplished without the active support of the ind. pop.

And similarly the Starks seemingly had no qualms about butchering them pact or no pact.

 

Agreed, if anything, the First Men Invasion would have been more like a Dothraki horde, as they were a-horse. The Andal Invasion probably resembled reaving, as they were naval.

The Pact, as we know it, mentions nothing of the slaughter of cotf. The Pact forbade the butcher of the weirwood trees, and them alone.

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45 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Very probably, but makes me wonder why not a single contemporary human greenseer worked to prevent the creation of the WW or at least denounce it. Or why not a single human greenseer has told the real story in 8000 years. Do they lack free-will or the motivation has been considered just by all of them?

I'm really having trouble [total lack of evidence] with this growing assumption that everybody [or pretty near everybody] back then was a greenseer. Those of the tree-huggers we're told very explicitly are/were very few and far between so assuming multiple human ones is a bit of a stretch

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19 minutes ago, Voice said:

 

Not so.

At the time of the Last Hero's journey, cotf were only difficult to find in the frozen dead lands which he was traversing (today's "North," on his way to Winterfell, imo). We have no reason to assume they were difficult to find anywhere else during that time.

Cotf and First Men fought the Andals together, all across Westeros.

Yet they searched for years. I assume that they looked in the obvious places first (High Heart, Isles of Faces, the Neck). And not a single greenseer observed the group seeking help and guided them.

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5 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I'm really having trouble [total lack of evidence] with this growing assumption that everybody [or pretty near everybody] back then was a greenseer. Those of the tree-huggers we're told very explicitly are/were very few and far between so assuming multiple human ones is a bit of a stretch

Never said that there were lots of human greenseers at any given time. Just that none has ever publicly revealed the secret.

Going by the jump from BR to Bran, it appears that a human greenseer is born/made every 200 years or so.

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5 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Yet they searched for years. I assume that they looked in the obvious places first (High Heart, Isles of Faces, the Neck). And not a single greenseer observed the group seeking help and guided them.

Cos they didn't want to be found. Why else were they hiding?

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3 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I'm really having trouble [total lack of evidence] with this growing assumption that everybody [or pretty near everybody] back then was a greenseer. Those of the tree-huggers we're told very explicitly are/were very few and far between so assuming multiple human ones is a bit of a stretch

Yup.

Greenseers don't just grow on trees... or do they? LOL

 

2 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Yet they searched for years. I assume that they looked in the obvious places first (High Heart, Isles of Faces, the Neck). And not a single greenseer observed the group seeking help and guided them.

We are never told the Last Hero went anywhere aside from the frozen dead lands. And we are only told that he searched those frozen dead lands for years.

For example, there may well be cotf hidden in the 7 kingdoms today, but it would not have mattered for Bran. His presence was requested by a specific greenseer.

I think it was the same for Brandon the Builder and his twelve companions.

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2 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Never said that there were lots of human greenseers at any given time. Just that none has ever publicly revealed the secret.

Going by the jump from BR to Bran, it appears that a human greenseer is born every 200 years or so.

Rather than be a secret that was hidden from the First Men, I think the origin of the Others was well known to the First men and forgotten over time.

Greenseer influence has waned, until recently. And until recently, men like BC have dismissed legends heard at a woman's tit. I believe this has been to their own detriment, and that only now are people realizing their southron ambitions have caused communal amnesia.

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13 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

From the World Book

"AS THE FIRST MEN established their realms following the Pact, little troubled them save their own feuds and wars, or so the histories tell us.  It is also from these histories that we learn of the Long Night"

I suspect it was men using White Walkers as weapons that brought on The Long Night, possibly the Night's King or other Starks.  Children may have created the first White Walkers to get men to agree to the Pact, but men learned how to create them as well.  The Knight King legend specifically mentions knowledge being destroyed when he was defeated - I believe this was the knowledge of how to create White Walkers.

Nah, its very explicit about the white walkers coming for the first time during the Long Night - and no reason why they should exist before Winter came on account of they'd melt in the sunlight they shun.

As to the Nights King, no one ever accused him of being Dr, Frankenstein. He was accused of sacrifing to the Others, ie; doing a Craster, but that was all and the legend says that they tried to erase all records about him, not that they tried to destroy Prospero's books.

And with that I really gotta go to bed.

 

Good night all

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30 minutes ago, Voice said:

We are never told the Last Hero went anywhere aside from the frozen dead lands. And we are only told that he searched those frozen dead lands for years.

For example, there may well be cotf hidden in the 7 kingdoms today, but it would not have mattered for Bran. His presence was requested by a specific greenseer.

I think it was the same for Brandon the Builder and his twelve companions.

The frozen wasteland probably covered most of Westeros. The Rhoynar legends say that the Rhoyne froze down to the joining with the Selhorys. That latitude only leaves Dorne and part of the Reach and Stormlands outside of the frozen region.

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3 minutes ago, Tucu said:

The frozen wasteland probably covered most of Westeros. The Rhoynar legends say that the Rhoyne froze down to the joining with the Selhorys. That latitude only leaves Dorne and part of the Reach and Stormlands outside of the frozen region.

Far be it from me to dismiss Rhoynar legends. :cheers:

If that were the case, then it seems highly likely most of Westeros was a frozen wasteland. All the more reason for the cotf to go underground, and all the more reason for the Last Hero to have a hard time finding them. So they need not have become an endangered species, nor must we assume they were hiding from the Last Hero. They may have simply been taking refuge in their hallows.

Back to the Rhoynar legends, I quite like that idea. I normally imagine the 13 Heroes setting out from the Gods Eye, but I would love if it were actually a journey from Starfall to Winterfell.

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9 minutes ago, Voice said:

Far be it from me to dismiss Rhoynar legends. :cheers:

If that were the case, then it seems highly likely most of Westeros was a frozen wasteland. All the more reason for the cotf to go underground, and all the more reason for the Last Hero to have a hard time finding them. So they need not have become an endangered species, nor must we assume they were hiding from the Last Hero. They may have simply been taking refuge in their hallows.

Back to the Rhoynar legends, I quite like that idea. I normally imagine the 13 Heroes setting out from the Gods Eye, but I would love if it were actually a journey from Starfall to Winterfell.

I always imagined a painful trip from the Reach to north of where the wall is now, visiting legendary CoTF villages and finding nothing. I assumed it started in the Reach as that is the region of Garth Greenhand and Brandon of the Bloody Blade.

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14 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I always imagined a painful trip from the Reach to north of where the wall is now, visiting legendary CoTF villages and finding nothing. I assumed it started in the Reach as that is the region of Garth Greenhand and Brandon of the Bloody Blade.

 

Definitely possible.

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7 hours ago, Tucu said:

If the legend about the Wall being built after the Long Night is true, then the Night's King was not a WW or their creator, just someone who worshipped them. 

As of why the CoTF/Others created the WW, the legends have been cleansed of any details. This is specially suspicious given the number of human greenseers since then.

The NK is defintely not the creator he was the 13th LC unless the timeline is really fracked up.If we look at what happened to the delicate balance that was upended after man got its grip in the creation of the wights (they are the problem) seems pretty clear.They balance the scales.Men bred,killed used up resources indiscrimantly so the system had to right itself

No one kills man,like man.

4 hours ago, Matthew. said:

GRRM denied nothing--he did the same thing he does with any question that he knows is loaded with fan theory potential, and gave a nebulous answer that does not directly address the question in a yes/no fashion.

Agreed with his and i think conceptually the NK could be alive while not alive.We just have to take V6s lesson.No one would know he's Thistle the spearwife and Varamyrsixskins would be dead....Except he wouldn't be really.

4 hours ago, Tucu said:

Very probably, but makes me wonder why not a single contemporary human greenseer worked to prevent the creation of the WW or at least denounce it. Or why not a single human greenseer has told the real story in 8000 years. Do they lack free-will or the motivation has been considered just by all of them?

As my theory they didn't stop the wights because they created them.The WWS are basically boogey whose very existence protects the greenseers responsible.Humans and their ways 8,000 years ago were getting out of hand.They are doing so again.

4 hours ago, Voice said:

Not so.

At the time of the Last Hero's journey, cotf were only difficult to find in the frozen dead lands which he was traversing (today's "North," on his way to Winterfell, imo). We have no reason to assume they were difficult to find anywhere else during that time.

Cotf and First Men fought the Andals together, all across Westeros.

Nah  Voice those buggers were difficult to find because they didn't want to be...Yet ,remembers these buggers have the means to see everything that happens in the forest.TLH didn't have to be out there for years at anytime  looking for them.They could have helped him.They waited until his entire party died,he had no doggy,no horse and no weaponn to intervene.They waited until he was in a position where he would have probably sold his soul for a warm fire and a bowl of soup.

 

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9 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Nah  Voice those buggers were difficult to find because they didn't want to be...Yet ,remembers these buggers have the means to see everything that happens in the forest.TLH didn't have to be out there for years at anytime  looking for them.They could have helped him.They waited until his entire party died,he had no doggy,no horse and no weaponn to intervene.They waited until he was in a position where he would have probably sold his soul for a warm fire and a bowl of soup.

 

You seem to be assuming that all cotf can see everything. This is of course not the case:

 

Quote
"Only one man in a thousand is born a skinchanger," Lord Brynden said one day, after Bran had learned to fly, "and only one skinchanger in a thousand can be a greenseer."
 
"I thought the greenseers were the wizards of the children," Bran said. "The singers, I mean."

"In a sense. Those you call the children of the forest have eyes as golden as the sun, but once in a great while one is born amongst them with eyes as red as blood, or green as the moss on a tree in the heart of the forest. By these signs do the gods mark those they have chosen to receive the gift. The chosen ones are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few, for every song must have its balance. But once inside the wood they linger long indeed. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. Greenseers."

 

I actually agree with you in part though. The Last Hero's survival was not by chance. But again, I think you are casting blame in the wrong direction. The Last Hero was created by the Others. They could have killed him, but didn't.

They wanted him to reach the children of the forest. Rather than believe the children waited for the opportune time to rescue him, I think the Others picked off his companions, horses, dog, and sword ever so slowly and purposefully. His world became desperation, not unlike Reek.

A lone direwolf racing across an ice white field.

They could have collected him whenever they wanted. But first, they wanted him to reach the children and learn their language.

Once that was done, Night's Queen collected him.

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Reading the series prototype on the main page I start to think about Martin's creative process,Tyrion was planned to attack Winterfell,this lead us to assume if he and Theon was the same character originally,The TV show actually have a scene of whem Tyrion Trolls Theon on winterfell (I don't remembers now if similar thing happens in the book),what means that Tyrion attacks Winterfell but not directilly.

Jaime becoming king is a thing that in my opinion is impossible at this point since he is from King's guard,I can expeculate that Jaime's early role was split between Cersey and Euron.

Talking about Daenerys invasion planned in the early Dance (second book at this time),maybe a marriage between Jaime and Daenerys was planned but Scrapped (I think that still can Happen in TV show because of Dany's talk about alliance Marriage to Daario.)

if Jaime survives Stone Heart (I think will be since Lannister's plot armor ...) I think maybe He will marry Arianne,since his interest in foreign woman was Foreshadowed on feasts ...

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