Has the shows writing become worse because it isn't following the books?

[NutBurz]

Very well put, Cron.

 

I´m also a huge fan of series Bronn, ideal as he is. The actor makes up for it big time, guy must be a natural born badass to handle a character like that so smoothly. Does anyone think Bronn sound cheap?

[TheKnightOfJests]

5 hours ago, Cron said:

Great thread, awesome grist for the conversation mill, but I think you pose a question that's nearly impossible to definitively answer, cuz we just don't know for sure what is canon and what's not anymore.

Someone may correct me if GRRM and/or Dan and Dave have exhaustively revealed what is and is not canon now that the show is past the books, but my understandnig is that some is, some isn't, and we have nearly no way to tell the difference.

Here's a good example:  When they burned Shireen last year, I was APPALLED, and STRONGLY assumed Dan and Dave were to blame for it (as gratuitous shock value), and that it COULDN'T happen in the books (cuz Selyse and Shireen didn't even GO with Stannis to march on Winterfell in the books), but then, just a few weeks ago, I re-watched all of Season 5, and was watching the show runner comments after that episode when I was shocked to hear one of the show runners talking about, as I recall, how THEY were surprised when GRRM told them about Shireen being burned.

I was stunned.  Apparently, Shireen IS going to be burned in the books, and so my point is that I was blaming Dan and Dave for something that, I later came to find out, apparently is book canon (albeit not in the exact way it was in the show, presumably).

Bottom line for me is I love the books, I love the show, the books will almost always be better overall, but I think the show has actually improved the source material in some areas as well, so I try to keep that in mind (best example:  Bronn's role has been expanded in the show, which I think is a great move.  I like how he was helping Jaime train, how he is kind of Jaime's right hand man (HAR!) now, and how he and Jaime have become friends.  I think it's cool how Bronn has become buddies with, and hangs out with, both the Lannister brothers.  Loved Bronn's reunion with Pod in Season 6, too.  The Bronn actor is great, the character is great, and I'm all for a continued, expanded role for Bronn in the show)

I'm personally still appalled at it mainly because I highly doubt Stannis will be the one to burn her. She's nowhere near him, he told his men if he died to fight and put her on the Iron Throne, and burning the only heir you have doesn't make sense. D&D have said they hated Stannis, and I think they saw the book plot and basically went "Oh crap, people are starting to like this guy over our sexy dragon chick, make up something so everyone hates him!"

True we don't know, but I doubt it. I'll take back all comments if it does happen in the book. I just doubt it will. As far as I know of they haven't released statements about what's in the books except in this instance. That's slightly suspicious to me. It's like they knew people would get annoyed at it, so they threw all the blame somewhere else.

I have always chuckled to myself in the weird small hope that GRRM lied when he told D&D about the ending. Would be awesome if he trolled the people who turned his story into an odd fanfic.

[Garse Ironjade Janacek]

14 hours ago, NutBurz said:

-This scene also estabilishes the possibility for the future. At that point the audience doesn´t know she´s going to die, so it´s very much possible they´re learning about how the next stage came to be. It´s drama after all, not a documentary.

But this is kinda my point....it's an empty/unfulfilled promise for the future because it goes nowhere.  It's time we could spend on better things.  These guys (rightfully) decry how little time they have to cover material in the show.  Is this the best use of time for a doomed character?  Not to me.

14 hours ago, NutBurz said:

Two things-

-Closure for the character. He´s quite important, skilled fighter, heir to highgarden, it matters what happened to him after being locked up. He broke.

-Paralels with Jaime, especially for book readers. Even Jaime recognizes himself in Loras, and both have reasons why they could have been imprisioned by the faith. Jaime was almost broken when he lost his hand, maybe he could have proven weaker than he thought in Loras´ shoes.

I do see your point, but I would argue that the manner in which Loras conducted himself at the trial would have reflected that he was broken on its own just fine, and the marg/loras scene was extraneous.  

As for the parallels, yeah, I get them.  Lots of them!  They're better done in the book but I give the show a pass on this due to aforementioned limits of time...I mean, Loras was engaged to the only woman Jaime ever has loved.  

If they wanted to foreshadow Jaime's death with Loras then that would have been good.  Or build on the Jaime/Loras connection.  They don't quite do that, do they?  If Loras whispered something to Lancel and Lancel tells Qyburn, who uses it later in the story, then my gripe is without merit.  As it was done, it's kinda just fluff in my eyes.

Maybe they have some way to make these scenes plot moving devices, or even relevant depth-building details, down the road and we just don't know it yet.  But I don't honestly believe it based on what we've seen in 5 & 6.

[Garse Ironjade Janacek]

11 hours ago, TheKnightOfJests said:

I know that this might seem odd as it's not really a plot point, but once they got off book D&D's anti religion bias seemed to start shining through rather brightly.

I disagree.  Martin consistently as a writer had an anti-religion theme.  Not just in ASOIAF.  Lots of his old work is full of his dark views on religion.   I do think that D&D have been pretty consistent with the Martin themes of Anti-War, Anti-religion, Pro-Feminist, and Monarchy Sucks themes Martin has put in the story lines of the books.  For this, I actually give D&D credit.

D&D has been clumsy at times with how they have shared the message(s), but they are keeping Martin's Themes in mind.

[xjlxking]

3 hours ago, TheKnightOfJests said:

I'm personally still appalled at it mainly because I highly doubt Stannis will be the one to burn her. She's nowhere near him, he told his men if he died to fight and put her on the Iron Throne, and burning the only heir you have doesn't make sense. D&D have said they hated Stannis, and I think they saw the book plot and basically went "Oh crap, people are starting to like this guy over our sexy dragon chick, make up something so everyone hates him!"

True we don't know, but I doubt it. I'll take back all comments if it does happen in the book. I just doubt it will. As far as I know of they haven't released statements about what's in the books except in this instance. That's slightly suspicious to me. It's like they knew people would get annoyed at it, so they threw all the blame somewhere else.

I have always chuckled to myself in the weird small hope that GRRM lied when he told D&D about the ending. Would be awesome if he trolled the people who turned his story into an odd fanfic.

Except to me, he was willing to kill his own brother, his own nephew, and never asked about his pregnant child...

He has always been described as a cold man, with little feeling. While the book has not build his character the same way, the show has been very consistent with how it treats Stannis. His character development over the course of 5 season is more probably the most consist in the show. This a guy who initially tried to be righteous and stern but over time his greed have made him slip further and further. In the beginning he called Meli mad for thinking of killing his daughter, but mid development he was thinking, and in the end, he reasoned that one person is not worth an entire kingdom

[Cron]

9 hours ago, NutBurz said:

Very well put, Cron.

 

I´m also a huge fan of series Bronn, ideal as he is. The actor makes up for it big time, guy must be a natural born badass to handle a character like that so smoothly. Does anyone think Bronn sound cheap?

I don't think he sounds cheap at all.

In fact, if I could request a Game of Thrones "spinoff," Bronn is one of the characters I would most like to see centrally featured (along with Jaime, but I think he's gonna die, so that's not happening.  Other characters I'd like to see a lot more of:  Brienne, Pod Payne, Arya, and Lyanna Mormont)

[Cron]

4 hours ago, TheKnightOfJests said:

I'm personally still appalled at it mainly because I highly doubt Stannis will be the one to burn her. She's nowhere near him, he told his men if he died to fight and put her on the Iron Throne, and burning the only heir you have doesn't make sense. D&D have said they hated Stannis, and I think they saw the book plot and basically went "Oh crap, people are starting to like this guy over our sexy dragon chick, make up something so everyone hates him!"

True we don't know, but I doubt it. I'll take back all comments if it does happen in the book. I just doubt it will. As far as I know of they haven't released statements about what's in the books except in this instance. That's slightly suspicious to me. It's like they knew people would get annoyed at it, so they threw all the blame somewhere else.

I have always chuckled to myself in the weird small hope that GRRM lied when he told D&D about the ending. Would be awesome if he trolled the people who turned his story into an odd fanfic.

Oh, I'm still appalled, too!

The only question is who is responsible for it.

But if it's GRRM, then it's canon, and the subject of this thread is asking whether the show writing is becoming worse b/c it isn't following the books, and that's why I brought up the Shireen thing:  The thread question is nearly impossible to definitively answer when we have a hard time even saying for sure, at this point, what is and is not canon.

My point is that trying to compare book to show at this time is a very, very murky endeavor.

We can also consider what happened to Sansa last season.  I was APPALLED when she got married to Ramsay, but can we be positive that will never happen in the books? NO.  Even though it seems unlikely to me, it IS theoretically possible Sansa will marry Ramsay in the books, even though it was first Jeyne Poole in the books.  Likely? Not in my opinion.  But possible? Yes.

[TheKnightOfJests]

4 hours ago, Garse Ironjade Janacek said:

I disagree.  Martin consistently as a writer had an anti-religion theme.  Not just in ASOIAF.  Lots of his old work is full of his dark views on religion.   I do think that D&D have been pretty consistent with the Martin themes of Anti-War, Anti-religion, Pro-Feminist, and Monarchy Sucks themes Martin has put in the story lines of the books.  For this, I actually give D&D credit.

D&D has been clumsy at times with how they have shared the message(s), but they are keeping Martin's Themes in mind.

Martin himself has said he has respect for religion (or something similar, I can't remember the exact quote), and in the books he is very neutral. He shows the good and bad aspects of religion, such as how the sparrows who travel throughout the land are rather kind, and try to help people, while the sparrows who are basically ruling Kings Landing are VERY misguided because you can't run a kingdom of diverse people by conforming them to one religion. And of course there are examples of other religions in the books. This was just one

D&D on the other hand have made a couple of anti religious remarks, and in the show (since S5 basically) they have omitted pretty much all the good aspects of the religions, shown all the bad, and even made up scenes and lines to further the point of view. It doesn't really make sense in a world of magic that religion is scoffed at, and I think Martin knew that.

Basically I'm a religious person who watches the show, and I have several religious friends who do, and we overlook these things cause we like the show but it's a bit alienating when something based on your religion (like the Faith of the Seven is like Christianity, or the Old Gods is like what I assume to be Paganism) is always shown to be bad. It's not done in the books like that, and it wasn't really done on the show like that until they got off book.

[xjlxking]

2 hours ago, TheKnightOfJests said:

Martin himself has said he has respect for religion (or something similar, I can't remember the exact quote), and in the books he is very neutral. He shows the good and bad aspects of religion, such as how the sparrows who travel throughout the land are rather kind, and try to help people, while the sparrows who are basically ruling Kings Landing are VERY misguided because you can't run a kingdom of diverse people by conforming them to one religion. And of course there are examples of other religions in the books. This was just one

D&D on the other hand have made a couple of anti religious remarks, and in the show (since S5 basically) they have omitted pretty much all the good aspects of the religions, shown all the bad, and even made up scenes and lines to further the point of view. It doesn't really make sense in a world of magic that religion is scoffed at, and I think Martin knew that.

Basically I'm a religious person who watches the show, and I have several religious friends who do, and we overlook these things cause we like the show but it's a bit alienating when something based on your religion (like the Faith of the Seven is like Christianity, or the Old Gods is like what I assume to be Paganism) is always shown to be bad. It's not done in the books like that, and it wasn't really done on the show like that until they got off book.

They have omitted the good side of religion?

The entire show has good people praying to gods. Good normal people living your everyday live and being godly men. Ned, Jon, Sansa, Tyrion, Jorah, sam, Cait,..etc are all religious to a normal degree. They are what a normal person in NYC is; they are sinners if you were to follow religion strictly but they believe in religion.

I know what your problem is, you want a good fanatic in the show. You just want a Jesus like character that goes around and does everything out of selfishness. You forget that it's not hero religion is. We were shown that religion helps people in the show; hell the sparrow was shown feeding the poor and helping the homeless. Like what exactly do you want? Jesus? Mohammed ? Get real

[Rubicante]

14 hours ago, TheKnightOfJests said:

I'm personally still appalled at it mainly because I highly doubt Stannis will be the one to burn her. She's nowhere near him, he told his men if he died to fight and put her on the Iron Throne, and burning the only heir you have doesn't make sense.

He's nowhere near her...yet.  Unlike in the show, I do think Stannis will take Winterfell and defeat the Boltons in the books.  There will be no "Battle of the Bastards", although the way in which Stannis wins will be nothing like the way Jon and Sansa recaptured Winterfell.  A lot more trickery and betrayals will be involved.  Shireen will have no part of this.

The sacrifice, I believe, will take place much later in the books either at the Wall or in Winterfell after Stannis sees the threat from the Others and the wights and realizes how screwed they are.

10 hours ago, xjlxking said:

Except to me, he was willing to kill his own brother, his own nephew, and never asked about his pregnant child...

He has always been described as a cold man, with little feeling. While the book has not build his character the same way, the show has been very consistent with how it treats Stannis. His character development over the course of 5 season is more probably the most consist in the show. This a guy who initially tried to be righteous and stern but over time his greed have made him slip further and further. In the beginning he called Meli mad for thinking of killing his daughter, but mid development he was thinking, and in the end, he reasoned that one person is not worth an entire kingdom

I don't think it's greed as much as desperation and the need for an x-factor.  He initially relies on her because Renly has named himself King, and because Renly holds Storm's End he gets the entire army from the Stormlands.  So he uses her to kill Renly.  Once he has an army, he sends her back to Dragonstone.  After being defeated at the Blackwater, he begins to rely on her more and nearly sacrifices his nephew until Davos provides him with a better option.  Mel's role in Stannis saving the Night's Watch is minor (she burns an eagle).  Then he doesn't rely on her again.  He leaves Winterfell without her, and I guarantee he will take Winterfell without her help. 

But he will get desperate again...

[Raventhal]

I think part of the problem I have had is there were far too many scenes that were not needed or dragged out just for the blood/sex that could have gone to more canon stuff.  Sometimes motivations are hard to understand with the lack of background/characters that were skipped.  Much of the politics in Meereen could have been skipped. Hell it could be skipped in the book.  Now it seems with 13 episodes they just upped the pace to ludicrous speed.

Its like ok we can't have the books pace so we cut but then added in a bunch of filler for gratuitous reasons.

[Cron]

24 minutes ago, Raventhal said:

I think part of the problem I have had is there were far too many scenes that were not needed or dragged out just for the blood/sex that could have gone to more canon stuff.  Sometimes motivations are hard to understand with the lack of background/characters that were skipped.  Much of the politics in Meereen could have been skipped. Hell it could be skipped in the book.  Now it seems with 13 episodes they just upped the pace to ludicrous speed.

Its like ok we can't have the books pace so we cut but then added in a bunch of filler for gratuitous reasons.

Yeah, a lot of the gratuitous stuff in earlier seasons annoyed me, cuz i felt every second they spent on that stuff was time lost that they could have spent on great canon stuff.

And I'm critical of a number of things they've done in the show, but on the other hand there are a LOT of great things they did that are straight from the books, and even some things that are better in the show than the books.

Still, though, I'm guessing most hardcore fans here would have preferred the show just follow the books as closely as reasonably possible (Which Season 1 almost did, of course.  If you take the Roz scenes out of Season 1, and add in just a little more canon in place of those Roz scenes, I think Season 1 would have to be the most faithful book-to-screen adaptation ever done)

[Rubicante]

44 minutes ago, Cron said:

Still, though, I'm guessing most hardcore fans here would have preferred the show just follow the books as closely as reasonably possible (Which Season 1 almost did, of course.  If you take the Roz scenes out of Season 1, and add in just a little more canon in place of those Roz scenes, I think Season 1 would have to be the most faithful book-to-screen adaptation ever done)

To be fair, I think season 1 was probably the easiest to adapt.  Most of the characters were in the same locations, so filming was probably much easier to do.  The show started to get in trouble as early as season 2 when characters began to move in their diverging paths. 

[TheKnightOfJests]

5 hours ago, xjlxking said:

They have omitted the good side of religion?

The entire show has good people praying to gods. Good normal people living your everyday live and being godly men. Ned, Jon, Sansa, Tyrion, Jorah, sam, Cait,..etc are all religious to a normal degree. They are what a normal person in NYC is; they are sinners if you were to follow religion strictly but they believe in religion.

I know what your problem is, you want a good fanatic in the show. You just want a Jesus like character that goes around and does everything out of selfishness. You forget that it's not hero religion is. We were shown that religion helps people in the show; hell the sparrow was shown feeding the poor and helping the homeless. Like what exactly do you want? Jesus? Mohammed ? Get real

I specifically said after they went off book. Meaning season 5.... Everything before that was fine. The Sparrows had to be in the story I know and they didn't do the Brienne plot from the books so I understood the lack of Sparrows on the roads. They did however have pretty much at least one anti religious line per episode this last season.

Examples I can give not in order are as follows

1: Sansa saying she was stupid for praying at the Weirwood in E10

2: Vary's long speech to the other red woman (don't remember the episode)

3: Jon calling Rhillor cruel in E9

4: Davos saying Fuck the gods in E2 I believe

5: Jaime with the Sparrows (don't remember the episode number)

There are others as well, but I can't completely remember the placement of episodes or characters. Basically it went from characters  being religious or being neutral on the subject to the same characters saying religion is stupid. The lines just seem out of place really, hence my statement that taking magic sriously, but doubting the Gods was rather odd.

 I think they made the Sparrows almost cartoonish in their evil. In the book we see both sides. The Sparrows on the rode are good Holy men, and they help people. The Sparrows in Kings landing at first started out with good intentions (feeding the poor, trying to promote good behavior, etc), but became drunk on power when Cersei gave it to them. The cause of wanting to help the suffering is a good one, but when you're basically punishing the nobility for being nobility, that's when the problem arose.

I don't want a Jesus character, that character would be boring. I don't want any character to be made just to be religious. I just don't like that the only religious people we've seen (Since S5 began mind you Mr. xjlxking) have been the crazy brand of religious people, while all the main characters speak in disdaining tones when they mention the gods.

[Rory Snow]

26 minutes ago, Rubicante said:

To be fair, I think season 1 was probably the easiest to adapt.  Most of the characters were in the same locations, so filming was probably much easier to do.  The show started to get in trouble as early as season 2 when characters began to move in their diverging paths. 

True, The timing was much easier to manage as well. Everything seemed more linear (for lack of a better term). The events seemed to be in order, this happens, then that and that.. it all linked together. And what happened in King's Landing had no clear relation in time to what happened with Dany or whoever. As the story expanded, got more complex and even characters moved from one main set to another (such as Tyrion), maintaining some semblance of synchronicity has become, at least for D&D, a struggle.

[NutBurz]

Problem when trying to determine a stance on religion in asoiaf is that, for all we know, there are supernatural powers at work in the story, and that´s ultimately a big pro-religion stance. If the story is constantly trying to represent the struggle between good and evil inside each person and how that reflects in reality through their choices and actions, it´s only normal that the same approach is used for the religious people and religious institutions. All of them have good and bad inherent to their defintions, but some choose to enforce this and that ideal, while others choose to enforce this and that, and the result of how that aligns with your moral compass will tell each person if they´re good or bad.

[TheKnightOfJests]

4 minutes ago, NutBurz said:

Problem when trying to determine a stance on religion in asoiaf is that, for all we know, there are supernatural powers at work in the story, and that´s ultimately a big pro-religion stance. If the story is constantly trying to represent the struggle between good and evil inside each person and how that reflects in reality through their choices and actions, it´s only normal that the same approach is used for the religious people and religious institutions. All of them have good and bad inherent to their defintions, but some choose to enforce this and that ideal, while others choose to enforce this and that, and the result of how that aligns with your moral compass will tell each person if they´re good or bad.

You are the rightest of the right. And I think that's how Martin had it in the books as opposed to the show.

[Aedam Targaryen]

10 hours ago, TheKnightOfJests said:

I don't want a Jesus character, that character would be boring. I don't want any character to be made just to be religious. I just don't like that the only religious people we've seen (Since S5 began mind you Mr. xjlxking) have been the crazy brand of religious people, while all the main characters speak in disdaining tones when they mention the gods.

You seem to have forgotten Septon Maribald. He was only in one episode, and while he wasn't fanatical, he looked after his flock of followers, preached to them to help them be better people, and was working to build a sept when he was murdered. Most pro-religious people would call him a martyr. 

[xjlxking]

10 hours ago, TheKnightOfJests said:

I specifically said after they went off book. Meaning season 5.... Everything before that was fine. The Sparrows had to be in the story I know and they didn't do the Brienne plot from the books so I understood the lack of Sparrows on the roads. They did however have pretty much at least one anti religious line per episode this last season.

Examples I can give not in order are as follows

1: Sansa saying she was stupid for praying at the Weirwood in E10

2: Vary's long speech to the other red woman (don't remember the episode)

3: Jon calling Rhillor cruel in E9

4: Davos saying Fuck the gods in E2 I believe

5: Jaime with the Sparrows (don't remember the episode number)

There are others as well, but I can't completely remember the placement of episodes or characters. Basically it went from characters  being religious or being neutral on the subject to the same characters saying religion is stupid. The lines just seem out of place really, hence my statement that taking magic sriously, but doubting the Gods was rather odd.

 I think they made the Sparrows almost cartoonish in their evil. In the book we see both sides. The Sparrows on the rode are good Holy men, and they help people. The Sparrows in Kings landing at first started out with good intentions (feeding the poor, trying to promote good behavior, etc), but became drunk on power when Cersei gave it to them. The cause of wanting to help the suffering is a good one, but when you're basically punishing the nobility for being nobility, that's when the problem arose.

I don't want a Jesus character, that character would be boring. I don't want any character to be made just to be religious. I just don't like that the only religious people we've seen (Since S5 began mind you Mr. xjlxking) have been the crazy brand of religious people, while all the main characters speak in disdaining tones when they mention the gods.

So your only complaint is season 6?

Lets see, the sparrows outlawed trial combat which I think we can all agree was correct; the reasoning was superb. Rich were using their wealth to get out of laws the broke

The sparrows were zealous and fanatics but only in their devotion; they were particularly evil. They knew Cersie, Lancel, and Marg were all sinners and they were making sure that they were punished. It was an extreme sense but in no way does it show religion is a bad light.

as far as characters calling out religion being bad... Nothing in particular stood out. Did some characters expressed frustration at the gods and religion? Of course, but it doesn't make religion bad. In fact, I'd wage that they character feel more areal. Here is saying, finally see how stupid she is...gods don't just grant your wish because you pray; do you blame her? She has one of the worst things happen to her. 

You can call it what you want, I think that's how a normal person would react in lost of those situations. Varys says something bad about religion? Of course, he is only a spy masters, he knows what those fanatics do. Tyrion? Hell yes! 

 

[lakin1013]

The OP question cannot be answered easily or quickly due to all the variables to the problem.  Yes, I agree that the writing seemed worse.  But is that because --

-there are no more books to follow so they have to make it up as they go
-the quality of the last 2 books diminished so even while following them, the writing and story would naturally lessen
-the show writers are not the best quality
-the show writers are top notch but moving a story from book form to show form is difficult no matter what, moving a show from internal character perspectives to clear, overt storylines is difficult
-the outline GRRM gave them was very broad strokes and the writers are trying valiantly to fill in the blanks
-GRRM gave them a broad outline, all the while knowing he in fact may change his mind about his own ending
-GRRM promised them the finished books by now so the writers are annoyed and unprepared with having to 'write' the books
-GRRM thought the show would move slower and is annoyed and unprepared with having to speed up his process
 

And these are just some of the variables I could think of, I am certain there are many more.  We also know that this show is hugely popular and up for many awards, so while some of us may think the writing has suffered, others are still transfixed by this story.