Jump to content

Has the shows writing become worse because it isn't following the books?


Recommended Posts

On 23/07/2016 at 1:40 PM, TheKnightOfJests said:

I'm personally still appalled at it mainly because I highly doubt Stannis will be the one to burn her. She's nowhere near him, he told his men if he died to fight and put her on the Iron Throne, and burning the only heir you have doesn't make sense. D&D have said they hated Stannis, and I think they saw the book plot and basically went "Oh crap, people are starting to like this guy over our sexy dragon chick, make up something so everyone hates him!"

True we don't know, but I doubt it. I'll take back all comments if it does happen in the book. I just doubt it will. As far as I know of they haven't released statements about what's in the books except in this instance. That's slightly suspicious to me. It's like they knew people would get annoyed at it, so they threw all the blame somewhere else.

I have always chuckled to myself in the weird small hope that GRRM lied when he told D&D about the ending. Would be awesome if he trolled the people who turned his story into an odd fanfic.

Dont forget, on the show he burned her a megar days walk from WF. All because, they pulled 20 good men. Which werent even used again lol. You'd think Jon whom was even more stretched thin would get BTFO worse. Oh no big budget battle because episode 9.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, TheKnightOfJests said:

I specifically said after they went off book. Meaning season 5.... Everything before that was fine. The Sparrows had to be in the story I know and they didn't do the Brienne plot from the books so I understood the lack of Sparrows on the roads. They did however have pretty much at least one anti religious line per episode this last season.

Examples I can give not in order are as follows

1: Sansa saying she was stupid for praying at the Weirwood in E10

2: Vary's long speech to the other red woman (don't remember the episode)

3: Jon calling Rhillor cruel in E9

4: Davos saying Fuck the gods in E2 I believe

5: Jaime with the Sparrows (don't remember the episode number)

There are others as well, but I can't completely remember the placement of episodes or characters. Basically it went from characters  being religious or being neutral on the subject to the same characters saying religion is stupid. The lines just seem out of place really, hence my statement that taking magic sriously, but doubting the Gods was rather odd.

 I think they made the Sparrows almost cartoonish in their evil. In the book we see both sides. The Sparrows on the rode are good Holy men, and they help people. The Sparrows in Kings landing at first started out with good intentions (feeding the poor, trying to promote good behavior, etc), but became drunk on power when Cersei gave it to them. The cause of wanting to help the suffering is a good one, but when you're basically punishing the nobility for being nobility, that's when the problem arose.

I don't want a Jesus character, that character would be boring. I don't want any character to be made just to be religious. I just don't like that the only religious people we've seen (Since S5 began mind you Mr. xjlxking) have been the crazy brand of religious people, while all the main characters speak in disdaining tones when they mention the gods.

Well when Jon died he said he saw "nothing". I think if you were religious all your life and believed in the gods then died, and then you are faced with the terrible truth of there literally being nothing or nobody waiting for you after you die, but then you were brought back to life through "magic?". You'd be a little cynical as well, or very confused either one would be believable to me.

I think Jon calling Rhllor "cruel" is pretty appropriate given that Melisandre just straight up told him that Rhllor doesn't give a shit what he thinks and that'd Rhllor will keep bringing him back to die as much as Rhllor wants.

Davos was never a religious person to begin with why would him saying "fuck the gods" be out of character?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, Adam_Up_Bxtch said:

Davos was never a religious person to begin with why would him saying "fuck the gods" be out of character?

Uhmm yes he is. Hes quite steadfast in his faith to the Seven 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Ruhail said:

Uhmm yes he is. Hes quite steadfast in his faith to the Seven 

Is that why he called his Stannis his God? 

No, seriously, he is your average man. He believes in the gods but he doesn't follow the faith strictly. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Ruhail said:

Shit guess i missed that.

It's easily done. The fact that his religious thinking comes out in the book from us being in his head means it's not necessarily going to be obvious onscreen. I recall Liam Cunningham saying it in a couple of interviews and there are subtle moments in the show where it is suggested he doesn't like the idea of gods by something he says.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

48 minutes ago, Ruhail said:

Uhmm yes he is. Hes quite steadfast in his faith to the Seven 

He may "believe" in them to some extent, like Tywin or others but I have not been shown any evidence that he is a very religious person at all that it would lead me to find it unbelievable that he'd say "fuck the gods".

The books are another story but in the show he has been shown to be very cynical. It is kind of hard sometimes to try and separate the show and the books with certain little aspects like that lol

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the main problem is that we don't have POVs in the show. In the books a reader cant get some insight in character's logic and intentions  from the chapters written from this character's point of view. That's why many actions seem somewhat ilogical. GRRM is a great master of hints, but in a TV adaptation it isn't always possible to show them. But they're importnat

I started the books when I was watching s4, now I'm finishing WOW, besides that I read Wiki a lot. But f.e. my colleague who only watched the show asked me a questions: What's the deal with Roose Bolton? Why wasn't R+L=J explained?

I agree that the dialogs in s5-6 got worse, more cliched. like BWB telling the Hound about life purpose or Tyrion telling dany "I believe in you". It's pretty plain. I understand that D&D have an enoumourous task not only to adapt a work of fiction, but to adapt things that hasn't been written yet. In contrary to LOTR, which is already written "the ink is dry", the ASOIAF is a living thing. GRRM can change his mind anytime.

As for storylines. I don't mind Dorne storyline, it exists atonomous at the moment. But during the s5-6 I was really bored with Arya's storyline. She literally just got beaten by the waif in every episode.I didn't like the development of Cersei too, she used to be more human though ruthless and wretched person during in the begining. Now she is a pure monster.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/23/2016 at 4:40 PM, TheKnightOfJests said:

Martin himself has said he has respect for religion (or something similar, I can't remember the exact quote), and in the books he is very neutral. He shows the good and bad aspects of religion, such as how the sparrows who travel throughout the land are rather kind, and try to help people, while the sparrows who are basically ruling Kings Landing are VERY misguided because you can't run a kingdom of diverse people by conforming them to one religion. And of course there are examples of other religions in the books. This was just one

D&D on the other hand have made a couple of anti religious remarks, and in the show (since S5 basically) they have omitted pretty much all the good aspects of the religions, shown all the bad, and even made up scenes and lines to further the point of view. It doesn't really make sense in a world of magic that religion is scoffed at, and I think Martin knew that.

Basically I'm a religious person who watches the show, and I have several religious friends who do, and we overlook these things cause we like the show but it's a bit alienating when something based on your religion (like the Faith of the Seven is like Christianity, or the Old Gods is like what I assume to be Paganism) is always shown to be bad. It's not done in the books like that, and it wasn't really done on the show like that until they got off book.

Well, we all have our perceptions...I come from a viewpoint of more of a non-religious reader, but I am certainly not an athiest, either.

I have read some other stories outside of ASOIAF that have religious overtones/themes written by Martin.  It's a theme that seems to come up frequently.

1) The Way of Cross and Dragon:  Its a story about a priest in the Interstellar Catholic Church who is a Knight Inquisitor.  His job is to travel the cosmos and fight heresy, which is whatever his Archbishop says it is.  While the character himself is sympathetic and a pretty decent guy, the overall view of the church is very low.  The Interstellar Catholic Church is full of manipulators who are busy making a living, protecting the church brand, and have not a single care about faith.  It is a reasonably balanced anti-religious theme.

2) Seven Times Never Kill Man:  It is a story of the Steel Angels, who are religious extremists who's religion can be used to justify any sort of violence since the strong are made so by God in their faith.  In other words, "Might makes right, because God says so".  This is clearly unflattering story about religion, and what religions can do when not tempered by reason or respect for life.

3) A Song for Lya:  Is a story (featuring main characters Robb and Lyanna, BTW) where a religion is the basis of society for a planet called Shkea, and the Sckeen people all basically commit suicide by "joining" when they give themselves over to a parasite.  I take the story as one about love, loneliness, and loss, but the basic depiction of the religion of the Shkeen is not flattering.

In ASOIAF (books), I see mostly negative religious characters...particularly in leadership positions.  I do agree that Martin is careful to depict some good lower-ranked members of the church as decent human beings.  I don't think Martin hates religion, but I am certain he believes that the church should have very limited power, and when their power becomes too great, there are grave consequences in the name of "God X".  

You could argue that Martin is a bit more balanced than D&D, and I am inclined to agree, but I think his overall tone on religion in ASOIAF is a negative viewpoint.  I can change my basic theme from Martin from "Anti-Religion" to "Religion is a tool used by unethical men to manipulate" and be more accurate and fair, if you like.  However, I think D&D's handling of the issue is mostly consistent with Martin's views as I read ASOIAF in book form.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/24/2016 at 8:52 AM, xjlxking said:

So your only complaint is season 6?

Lets see, the sparrows outlawed trial combat which I think we can all agree was correct; the reasoning was superb. Rich were using their wealth to get out of laws the broke

The sparrows were zealous and fanatics but only in their devotion; they were particularly evil. They knew Cersie, Lancel, and Marg were all sinners and they were making sure that they were punished. It was an extreme sense but in no way does it show religion is a bad light.

as far as characters calling out religion being bad... Nothing in particular stood out. Did some characters expressed frustration at the gods and religion? Of course, but it doesn't make religion bad. In fact, I'd wage that they character feel more areal. Here is saying, finally see how stupid she is...gods don't just grant your wish because you pray; do you blame her? She has one of the worst things happen to her. 

You can call it what you want, I think that's how a normal person would react in lost of those situations. Varys says something bad about religion? Of course, he is only a spy masters, he knows what those fanatics do. Tyrion? Hell yes! 

 

The complaint about season 6 goes with the fact that my question is about the writing quality after season five.

The main fact I was trying to state is that all the characters we like and are supposed to like have all had one or more lines about condemning it in some way, Davos, Jon, and Sansa to name the few. That's all I was meaning to say, that there isn't a main character as far as I know of that hasn't had a line like that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/24/2016 at 8:46 AM, Aedam Targaryen said:

You seem to have forgotten Septon Maribald. He was only in one episode, and while he wasn't fanatical, he looked after his flock of followers, preached to them to help them be better people, and was working to build a sept when he was murdered. Most pro-religious people would call him a martyr. 

He was a fantastic example, but he had to be in the show just like the Sparrows. Both were in the books (if you believe the Hound is with the monks in book 4). The other parts are just fabricated.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have this theory as to why

Spoiler

it had to be the kids killing Pycelle. While many would say it´s simply for the shock value, I just can´t disassociate the image of angry kids stabbing a hypocrite priest, who doesn´t even pay for the sexual services of a young woman, from so many scandals involving somewhat similarly hypocrite priests of real life. It could be a subtle way to imply that TV Pycelle, at least, is a pedophile.

And such subtlety in a show known for it´s shocking content could be seen as respect.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/24/2016 at 4:02 PM, Ruhail said:

Dont forget, on the show he burned her a megar days walk from WF. All because, they pulled 20 good men. Which werent even used again lol. You'd think Jon whom was even more stretched thin would get BTFO worse. Oh no big budget battle because episode 9.

From what we see in the "Battle of the Bastards" episode, Davos finds the stag he made for Shireen at Jon's camp which is located just outside of Winterfell.  This is the same place Stannis made camp.  So basically Stannis sacrificed his daughter to open a pass to Winterfell, even though he was actually already at Winterfell.  Perhaps what the show forgot to show is that Stannis' camp somehow got stuck in a parallel universe, and the only way back was to sacrifice Shireen.

And I agree about the 20 good men.  Ramsay and his 20 good men could have crippled Jon just as easily, along with the rest of the world.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

59 minutes ago, Rubicante said:

From what we see in the "Battle of the Bastards" episode, Davos finds the stag he made for Shireen at Jon's camp which is located just outside of Winterfell.  This is the same place Stannis made camp.  So basically Stannis sacrificed his daughter to open a pass to Winterfell, even though he was actually already at Winterfell.  Perhaps what the show forgot to show is that Stannis' camp somehow got stuck in a parallel universe, and the only way back was to sacrifice Shireen.

And I agree about the 20 good men.  Ramsay and his 20 good men could have crippled Jon just as easily, along with the rest of the world.

All good points, most of which I thought about while watching the show.

I love the show, but the show runners just DON'T seem to pay as much attention to continuity and consistency details as the books do, and it seems like stuff like this has a nasty habit of cropping up when they veer away from the source material

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I admit that season 5 was a drop in quality for me, but considering it was being adapted from AFFC/ADWD, I was expecting it to be a lot worse. In fact, I think lowering my expectations helped me enjoy the season. Season 6, on the other hand, really bounced back from the subpar season 5 and has become my second favorite season. I only hope that TWOW can bounce back as well, but seeing that I only enjoyed 3 of the eleven released sample chapters, I'm not getting my hopes up. My ranking on the books/show based on my enjoyment:

1. ASOS

2. ACOK

3. AGOT

4. Season 4

5. Season 6

6. Season 1

7. Season 2

8. Season 3

9. ADWD

10. Season 5

11. AFFC

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/25/2016 at 10:28 PM, TheKnightOfJests said:

You seem to have forgotten Septon Maribald. He was only in one episode, and while he wasn't fanatical, he looked after his flock of followers, preached to them to help them be better people, and was working to build a sept when he was murdered. Most pro-religious people would call him a martyr. 

In the show there was a couple things that bothered me with this entire sequence.

The Hound is talking as he is doing work for Septon Maribald and he has been fully healed.  Yet, Septon Maribald is talking to him like he barely knows him.  One would think that the rehab that the Hound faced was...what, a year minimum?  Didn't SM say he nursed him back to health?  They didn't talk a bit during that time?

So they introduce this character (presumably to show that the Hound has changed his perspective on life) but the details just don't get handled like they should.  The dialogue is not consistent with the story and character background we are asked to accept, and it strikes me as terribly inefficient. 

The important thing is The Hound is alive and he is a changed man, right?  I finish watching this episode and I wondered to myself, "couldn't they have just handled this with a few flashbacks and five minutes of screen time?"   This choice of an extended sequence is especially confusing to me, since the Hound is only "changed" for a very short time since seeing all the flock slaughtered sends him on an killing spree with that axe.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Garse Ironjade Janacek said:

In the show there was a couple things that bothered me with this entire sequence.

The Hound is talking as he is doing work for Septon Maribald and he has been fully healed.  Yet, Septon Maribald is talking to him like he barely knows him.  One would think that the rehab that the Hound faced was...what, a year minimum?  Didn't SM say he nursed him back to health?  They didn't talk a bit during that time?

So they introduce this character (presumably to show that the Hound has changed his perspective on life) but the details just don't get handled like they should.  The dialogue is not consistent with the story and character background we are asked to accept, and it strikes me as terribly inefficient. 

The important thing is The Hound is alive and he is a changed man, right?  I finish watching this episode and I wondered to myself, "couldn't they have just handled this with a few flashbacks and five minutes of screen time?"   This choice of an extended sequence is especially confusing to me, since the Hound is only "changed" for a very short time since seeing all the flock slaughtered sends him on an killing spree with that axe.

Yeah. Hound didn't seem to learn anything. Could have asked yellow cloak why he did what he did. I really wished we had more satisfying deaths honestly. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...

No, I don't think so.  We can't have the books on TV.  Just for the 1st book alone, the show would last over 5 years. I think by the time the show would have reached book 3, the audience would be gone.   Dani's storyline in Mareene alone would be enough to have the TV fans changing the channels. Same goes for Tyrion's slavery story. 

 

I think that merging some storylines was a plus.  I can't think that there would be a issue now because, there aren't any books to go from now.  Me being a book reader, I don't have issues with the show.  I just find it ironic that, show ratings/ audience just keeps growing each season for a show that is suppose to be so bad:unsure:.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

While I understand budget constraints and time commitments, I do believe the show could have been better in Season 6. The "villain" is Ramsay Bolton, who is no military genius and a barely competent fighter. Roose Bolton on the other hand keeps that bastard in check and states several times that the only reason Ramsay is still alive is because of the taboo on kinslaying. Now I know it is not the books, and Ramsay had to be set up as a super villain. 

I think the Battle of the Bastards could have been done better. While Jon is not a military mastermind, he has shown time and again in both the books and the show he is a capable commander and shrewd strategist. That is unless they were paying homage in this episode to a quote in the first book where Jon did not want to die as a deserter, "but with a sword in his hands fighting his brother's enemies. Let them say Eddard Stark fathered four sons and not three." This could have been done better. Jon is not a moron, they could have shown this and still given Sansa her girl power moment when the Knights of the Vale rode in. Maybe Jon and his forces were starting to lose, but managed to recover and push the Bolton forces back, at which time the Vale reinforcements arrived and helped finish them off. In the books I think it is going to be Jon saving Stannis' ass from Roose Bolton's army.

The Sansa arc. I do not even know where to go with this one. I was kind of hoping that before her wedding "consummation" that Stannis' forces would have laid siege to Winterfell and Sansa would escape. Her crap with Littlefinger and getting upset that Jon was not asking her opinion and her flip flopping on the Rickon issue was just irritating. While I appreciate the way her character has grown throughout both versions of the series I felt like she took a couple of steps backwards this season. I really do hope she will help Jon behind the scenes instead of working against him, being how there are only 13-14 episodes left and they need to focus on Dany's invasion so there is no real time to be showing more political bullshit.

Arya, love her character. Probably the one who has grown the most, and has developed more in accordance to their situation. While she had her moron moment this season it is fair to say so have all of the other characters. I did like the homage to the Frey pies, however I think it would have been more intense if when she killed Walder Frey she did not have that psychotic look on her face. In my opinion it would have been more intense that she killed him with her little speech in a more detached manner. Kind of like her killing him is not an act of vengence, but a forgone conclusion that this was just going to happen. I do hope her other targets are more kharmic retribution than revenge.

Danaerys...can she not lose? From the beginning of the series even when she "lost" she won. I believe her scene in episode 9 should have been done in episode 8. As it stands she is an unstoppable force, though I am not sure who her military advisers are at this time. Jorah is gone, and Barristan is dead. I suppose that leaves...Theon and Yara? I believe the loss of Jorah and Barristan are going to be her downfall. Theon is not an idiot and understands warfare and Yara understands guerilla tactics. You have Grey Worm, but he only understands one type of war. Should Dany land in Sunspear, which is her best strategic option, her invasion will be easy until she gets out of the Reach and they meet an actual strategist, this is where I think Dany and her forces will realize it is not going to be easy even with three dragons.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...