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Will Jon and Sansa become romantically involved?


Britisher

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4 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

You argument it when you use terms like "child crushes". The label is meant to dismiss the feelings.

When did I use the term Child crushes? I used Infatuation, but that emphasizes that Jon and Val haven't known each other for a long time. Which goes with my point that I don't think she is trustworthy.

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3 minutes ago, Britisher said:

1. Thank you for sharing that, I'll concede that one :)

2. How does this answer my point that Jon knows he is worthy of Val's love as she isn't truly a princess and that he would only need to steal her for her to love him? 

3. Jon likens the Wildling child to himself more than Robb: he believes having a child with Val will bring Robb back. The extract focuses on Robb and having a son - Val is a means of creating this.

Are there any passages where Arya and/or Bran mention wanting to restore Winterfell to its former glory? (I'm sure there are but I cannot recall).

4. Greywind is dead and Ghost senses the loss of his brother (I believe that deep down Jon also senses that Arya, Bran, Rickon and Sansa are still alive, which explains his fixation on Robb over the other Stark children, particularly Arya). In the extract mentioned Jon believes that Val is the means through which Robb might be reborn in the from of a son. I believe that this desire to replace/resurrect Robb is also felt by Ghost which explains his close connection with Val.

 

1. Thank you for sharing that, I'll concede that one :)

I hope it helps. More knowledge in better than less :dunno:

2. How does this answer my point that Jon knows he is worthy of Val's love as she isn't truly a princess and that he would only need to steal her for her to love him? 

Because when Jon wakes up from his stabbings (however) he will know the truth about many things in the world he was wrong about. His own legitimacy is one. Bran will have a chance to connect with Jon as he is unconcious and Bran (who has a wealth of knowledge by now) will teach Jon a few things. Jon will awake a MAN because the BOY was killed and now he KNOWS it... and it will be awesome. :thumbsup:

3. Jon likens the Wildling child to himself more than Robb: he believes having a child with Val will bring Robb back. The extract focuses on Robb and having a son - Val is a means of creating this.

So, are you saying you do believe in Val's importance to Jon?

Are there any passages where Arya and/or Bran mention wanting to restore Winterfell to its former glory? (I'm sure there are but I cannot recall).

Here are two quick examples. This is all I have time for at the moment because I have to get ready to go to dinner with friends. The rest of the homework is up to you.

A Storm of Swords - Bran II

[Bran] "It was different when there was a Stark in Winterfell. But the old wolf's dead and young one's gone south to play the game of thrones, and all that's left us is the ghosts."

"The wolves will come again," said Jojen solemnly.

A Storm of Swords - Bran II

 
When they woke the next morning, the fire had gone out and the Liddle was gone, but he'd left a sausage for them, and a dozen oatcakes folded up neatly in a green and white cloth. Some of the cakes had pinenuts baked in them and some had blackberries. Bran ate one of each, and still did not know which sort he liked the best. One day there would be Starks in Winterfell again, he told himself, and then he'd send for the Liddles and pay them back a hundredfold for every nut and berry.
 

4. Greywind is dead and Ghost senses the loss of his brother (I believe that deep down Jon also senses that Arya, Bran, Rickon and Sansa are still alive, which explains his fixation on Robb over the other Stark children, particularly Arya). In the extract mentioned Jon believes that Val is the means through which Robb might be reborn in the from of a son. I believe that this desire to replace/resurrect Robb is also felt by Ghost which explains his close connection with Val.

So, Val is important to Jon?

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4 minutes ago, Britisher said:

Pedantic :P

What I meant to say was that Jon's rejection of Stannis's offer had naught to do with his desire to have a romantic relationship with Val, just as his strong urge to forsake his vows to the Night's Watch was not primarily about Val or his feelings towards her, but rather his feelings towards his family and his will to recreate his childhood.

It is an ideal which Sansa is equally capable of fulfilling. (And she shares this ideal too).

And as far as we know Sansa and Jon are the only characters who genuinely want this (rather specific example of replacing their family with their own children and restoring Winterfell). As the extract states Jon wants it more than anything he's ever wanted before.

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1 minute ago, King Crow said:

When did I use the term Child crushes? I used Infatuation, but that emphasizes that Jon and Val haven't known each other for a long time. Which goes with my point that I don't think she is trustworthy.

So, because she was introduced (fully) in act two, as GRRM planned, she is not trustworthy? This argument makes no sense and based on zero proof. I guess you are going to be really disappointed when act three comes around and more new people are introduced as GRRM has stated.

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Missing family and home, which they all do, is normal. Wanting to marry and have kids of your own, normal.

That doesn't mean you want to marry and have sex with your brother or sister and have their babies. 

He's been telling a story for five books, the penultimate is next. It's not actually true that anything can happen.

He's been telling a story all this time, and it matters. Given the characters and world he has established, that narrows things down considerably.

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15 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

I think that this thread 

it's very interesting and well presented about Val, Jon and the Old Gods.

That is an excellent read. I often scan it just to hype myself up for Winds.

Sidenote: that thread also makes me re-love Tormund as well.

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1 minute ago, King Crow said:

When did I use the term Child crushes? I used Infatuation, but that emphasizes that Jon and Val haven't known each other for a long time. Which goes with my point that I don't think she is trustworthy.

"infatuation" then, which is still a term and label used to make little of people's feelings. Attraction is a more correct word. As for knowing each other - they have been around each other for months by now.

BTW My father fell in love with my mom at first sight, pursued her to date her, and after the second date my mom agreed to be a couple. They married after knowing each other less than a year in '68. Another 2 years and they are happily married for 50 years, and the romance between them is still there and strong.

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2 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

So, because she was introduced (fully) in act two, as GRRM planned, she is not trustworthy? This argument makes no sense and based on zero proof. I guess you are going to be really disappointed when act three comes around and more new people are introduced as GRRM has stated.

For the life of me, I'll never understand @King Crow's argument that b/c Jon doesn't know Val well it definitely means she's untrustworthy. :dunno:

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9 minutes ago, Britisher said:

Pedantic :P

What I meant to say was that Jon's rejection of Stannis's offer had naught to do with his desire to have a romantic relationship with Val, just as his strong urge to forsake his vows to the Night's Watch was not primarily about Val or his feelings towards her, but rather his feelings towards his family and his will to recreate his childhood.

It is an ideal which Sansa is equally capable of fulfilling. (And she shares this ideal too).

Ok, just this one more bit... then I have to go.

"but rather his feelings towards his family and his will to recreate his childhood."

Sorry, but no. Jon is not trying to recreate his childhood by any stretch of the imagination. Neither is Sansa. I have a feeling she will turn away from lemoncakes pretty soon just as she will turn away from the idea of a "perfect knight in shining armor". BOTH are growing and learning better to do better.

Jon trying to save his family is NOT the same as him having any sort of arrested development in his maturity. Jon wants to know his mother, because yeah, that is half of his identity.

Where did you get this idea???

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1 minute ago, The Fattest Leech said:

So, because she was introduced (fully) in act two, as GRRM planned, she is not trustworthy? This argument makes no sense and based on zero proof. I guess you are going to be really disappointed when act three comes around and more new people are introduced as GRRM has stated.

It's more than just being introduce late in the series. Not long ago the Wildlings were planning to cross the Wall and do whatever they wanted. Jon prevented that from happening. I'm suspicious that they may still have designs to cross the wall on their terms. I don't understand how being wary of an enemy you just subjugated doesn't make any sense.

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55 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Ok, just this one more bit... then I have to go.

"but rather his feelings towards his family and his will to recreate his childhood."

Sorry, but no. Jon is not trying to recreate his childhood by any stretch of the imagination. Neither is Sansa. I have a feeling she will turn away from lemoncakes pretty soon just as she will turn away from the idea of a "perfect knight in shining armor". BOTH are growing and learning better to do better.

Jon trying to save his family is NOT the same as him having any sort of arrested development in his maturity. Jon wants to know his mother, because yeah, that is half of his identity.

Where did you get this idea???

Yeah, these human things that characters all experience in the story are human things that characters all experience. Kids grow up and want to marry and have a family of their own. That's normal. That's life.

He has Sansa explicitly place Sandor in the marriage bed, that's the author telling the reader something. He has Jon imagining being married to Val, that's the author telling the reader something. And there's more.

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15 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

"infatuation" then, which is still a term and label used to make little of people's feelings. Attraction is a more correct word. As for knowing each other - they have been around each other for months by now.

BTW My father fell in love with my mom at first sight, pursued her to date her, and after the second date my mom agreed to be a couple. They married after knowing each other less than a year in '68. Another 2 years and they are happily married for 50 years, and the romance between them is still there and strong.

I agree and I am unapologetic about downplaying their attraction. I am arguing for Jon/Sansa and political marriages. I just wanted to establish that I have not been outright dismissive or derisive when it comes to Jon and Val's attraction.

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What I have to say about Jon and Sansa;

Quote

"He's of my village. You know nothing, Jon Snow. A true man steals a woman from afar, t' strengthen the clan. Women who bed brothers or fathers or clan kin offend the gods, and are cursed with weak and sickly children. Even monsters."

No matter about the DNA, Jon and Sansa are siblings and there is absolutely nothing in the books to suggest otherwise, no text proof, no quote, no foreshadowing. Nothing. Now if you chose to prefer your wishful thinking than the text it's ok but don't expect people agreeing with you or anything like that. 

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2 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

What I have to say about Jon and Sansa;

No matter about the DNA, Jon and Sansa are siblings and there is absolutely nothing in the books to sugest otherwise, no text proof, no quote, no foreshadowing. Nothing. Now if you chose to prefer your wishful thinking than the text it's ok but don't expect people agreeing with you or anything like that. 

That's it, the heart of it all. They ARE siblings, even if they're technically cousins. And there are hints, no foreshadowing, nothing, zip, nada other than some readers' wishful thinking. 

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Even a political marriage is a marriage. It means sex and babies. There's nowhere in the story that indicates Jon and Sansa want that with each other. And there's plenty to 1) indicate they don't and 2) indicate they want that with someone else.

Again, 5/7 books, this is heading to the penultimate, where everything he set up comes into play in a big way. One should not have to bend over backwards to see these things. They should be quite clear. Like explicit romantic, sexual, marriage references.

And lo and behold, there are... with other characters. Jon and Sansa are characters who have already met, and know each other... and there's no connection beyond a very basic sibling one. Not much in common, and no deep bond.

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3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

That's it, the heart of it all. They ARE siblings, even if they're technically cousins. No hints, no foreshadowing, nothing, zip, nada. 

Jon himself has told,

Quote

He is not my father. The thought leapt unbidden to Jon's mind. Lord Eddard Stark is my father. I will not forget him, no matter how many swords they give me.

Meaning no matter how many will bend the knee to him because of Rhaegar, Ned will always be his father and Ned's family will always be Jon's family. It's against Jon's nature and character to forget who he is and the people he loves. I blame D&D's fanfiction for the new ship trend.

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23 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Ok, just this one more bit... then I have to go.

"but rather his feelings towards his family and his will to recreate his childhood."

Sorry, but no. Jon is not trying to recreate his childhood by any stretch of the imagination. Neither is Sansa. I have a feeling she will turn away from lemoncakes pretty soon just as she will turn away from the idea of a "perfect knight in shining armor". BOTH are growing and learning better to do better.

Jon trying to save his family is NOT the same as him having any sort of arrested development in his maturity. Jon wants to know his mother, because yeah, that is half of his identity.

Where did you get this idea???

Jon wants to have a son to replace Robb: he wants to return to Winterfell and to re-establish the environment of his childhood through Val, Gilly's son, the wildling baby and that son.

Sansa also wants to have children to replace the family that she has lost. In one of her aSoS chapters after she's promised to Willas Tyrell she wishes to have children with the names of her lost family. The snow castle chapter also underlines the fact that Sansa wants to go home  to Winterfell and unite with the rest of her family.

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Kids don't grow up to be their mother and father and replace their siblings by having babies together. They grow up to marry and have families of their own. Just being human is not a parallel, or else it's one everyone shares. This is a story, if he wants you to think a character is having romantic thoughts, he will give them romantic thoughts.

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13 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

What I have to say about Jon and Sansa;

No matter about the DNA, Jon and Sansa are siblings and there is absolutely nothing in the books to suggest otherwise, no text proof, no quote, no foreshadowing. Nothing. Now if you chose to prefer your wishful thinking than the text it's ok but don't expect people agreeing with you or anything like that. 

"Jon had never met anyone so stubborn except maybe for his little sister Arya. Is she still my sister? he wondered. Was she ever?" (Jon, A Storm of Swords) 

This quote sort of suggests that they aren't exactly siblings. Honestly at the risk of becoming too anecdotal. Jon and the Starks don't behave the same way that half-siblings I know behave.  That he is a half-brother is constantly being emphasized, that he would see being a half-sibling as being distinctly different than being a full sibling wouldn't be absurd.

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