Will Jon and Sansa become romantically involved?

[Britisher]

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I agree with the other posters here like @kissdbyfire @sweetsunray and @Jon's Queen Consort that nothing between Jon and Sansa, or any of his siblings, will happen.

While I do appreciate the work you put into your post, most just say something lame like "I have a gut feeling", I can see your effort. However, I think your own line says it best: "There's no solid evidence that Jon and Sansa will end up together, but there are some strong indications which I will outline below:"

And yes to the please don't use the outline to try and validate anything. George has said in past interviews, and just about 6 weeks ago, that the only reason he wrote the outline was because his publisher required one and he was, and I quote, "making shit up." He did this before book one was ever finished, so chances are high AGOT doesn't even really fit the outline.

Valid points completely: there is no evidence to support the idea no, only interpretations.

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Regarding the outline, it's worth mentioning that Cersei didn't exist in it. And in the actual story, we have Cersei and Jaime and twincest, possibly the most toxic relationship in the series. Maybe Martin used the incest idea with the Lannister twins instead of going for the very sad and very overused trope - having a couple fall in love, but oh noes, they can't because one is a noble and the other isn't, or they're siblings or both, and then, yoo-hoo, the non noble is a hidden prince and they're not related. 

Good point, although to clarify I am only using the outline to highlight the possibility of Sansa and Jon being involved romantically, it is not evidence.

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

1. Arya was present at the RW and her last chapter in aDwD is one where she only sees and remembers people who are dead and believes herself to be no one, not Arya Stark anymore. That is experiencing death.

2. No they don't. It's dragging Jon into it by imaginary hairs. She thinks of Robb and Arya, and somehow that's about Jon?

1. I don't believe that is experiencing death (I'll need to reread the chapter in question to double-check) but I agree she has a strong association to death and may well experience it in the future.

2. I'll break it all down-

Quote

The snow drifted down and down, all in ghostly silence, and lay thick and unbroken on the ground. All color had fled the world outside. It was a place of whites and blacks and greys. White towers and white snow and white statues, black shadows and black trees, the dark grey sky above. A pure world, Sansa thought. I do not belong here.

Yet she stepped out all the same. Her boots tore ankle-deep holes into the smooth white surface of the snow, yet made no sound. Sansa drifted past frosted shrubs and thin dark trees, and wondered if she were still dreaming

The references to the ghostly silence of the snow falling and Sansa making no sound as she walks along the surface of the snow link the sequence to Jon's direwolf, Ghost, who is constantly regarded as being silent moving.

The use of black and white imagery links in to the Night's Watch, who wear all black clothing and reside in the snowy white north. It also links in with Jon Snow in particular whose name is literally "snow", and whose direwolf has a white coat. He also has grey eyes (hence the grey sky above).

Quote

That was a lighter fall than this, she remembered. Robb had melting flakes in his hair when he hugged me, and the snowball Arya tried to make kept coming apart in her hands

As I've mentioned the image of melting flakes in Robb's hair links the sequence to Jon's chapter where he says goodbye to Bran, I believe it's his last interaction with Robb (on screen atleast) who he remembers having melting flakes in his hair.

Quote

When she said she wasn’t, Arya hit her in the face with another snowball, but Sansa grabbed her leg and pulled her down and was rubbing snow in her hair.

As I've mentioned before most of the time when Arya thinks of Jon she thinks of him rubbing her hair.

I think it would all be a bit much for these references to Jon to be a coincidence.

1 hour ago, Joan Jett said:

1. Jon is not the only Stark child most assocated with the Starks. Arya and Jon both have the Stark looks and they both are connected to the Old Gods. So there is no opposite ends anti parallel between just Jon/Sansa here. 

2. How exactly is this a parallel? If they had both lost their wolves, then I might understand, but this just doesn't work. With this logic you could create a parallel between Sansa and any character that has died. 

3. She did not hear Ghost howling. The quote says that she heart a "ghost wolf". What is a ghost wolf? A wolf that has died. Sansa's wolf died. It's the ghost of her own dead wolf, Lady.

4. Anyway, I think this parallel talk is pretty useless in this case because Jon has waaaaay more unique parallels with both Dany and Arya. Like a lot of them, throughout the series. Meanwhile Jon and Sansa hardly think of each other. 

5. I imagine Val will die in TWOW because of the foreshadowing about Jon being surrounded by skulls, and I never really took her seriously as a candidate anyway, she's just too stereotypical big-boobed blonde for me. 

1. If I recall correctly Catelyn states that he takes off the most from the Stark side and that's why it hurts so much (sorry I can't find the actual quote and so could well be wrong about that, I'll have a look into it). Arya rarely interacts with the Old Gods, she visits the Weirwood at Harrenhal once and I believe that's about it. Bran is more connected to the Old Gods, although he takes after the Tullys.

2. As I've mentioned it's dubious.

3. I think she instinctively believes it to be the ghost wolf of the pack. Chronologically I see this as more than just a random coincidence.

4. What unique parallels exist between Dany and Jon (I am genuinely interested).

5. That's possible, I think Val is a more interesting candidate over Daenerys though.

 

[The Fattest Leech]

Jon has not interest in bedding any closely related family. Jon starts his story "knowing nothing" because he is still a boy. He learns along the way. By the end of Dance, Jon sees himself as more of a wildling... First Man... and of the old gods. Jon will not offend the old gods. And the wildling term  to "steal" translates into the southern word to "marry". The southerners have a hard time accepting the true northerners and therefore perpetuate translation and misunderstanding issues.  (sorry, for some reason I cannot get BOLD to turn off)

A Storm of Swords - Jon III

"It wasn't Longspear, then?" Jon was relieved. He liked Longspear, with his homely face and friendly ways.

She punched him. "That's vile. Would you bed your sister?"

 

"Longspear's not your brother."

 

"He's of my village. You know nothing, Jon Snow. A true man steals a woman from afar, t' strengthen the clan. Women who bed brothers or fathers or clan kin offend the gods, and are cursed with weak and sickly children. Even monsters."

"Craster weds his daughters," Jon pointed out.

 

She punched him again. "Craster's more your kind than ours. His father was a crow who stole a woman out of Whitetree village, but after he had her he flew back t' his Wall. She went t' Castle Black once t' show the crow his son, but the brothers blew their horns and run her off. Craster's blood is black, and he bears a heavy curse." She ran her fingers lightly across his stomach. "I feared you'd do the same once. Fly back to the Wall. You never knew what t' do after you stole me."

 

Jon sat up. "Ygritte, I never stole you."

 

"Aye, you did. You jumped down the mountain and killed Orell, and afore I could get my axe you had a knife at my throat. I thought you'd have me then, or kill me, or maybe both, but you never did. And when I told you the tale o' Bael the Bard and how he plucked the rose o' Winterfell, I thought you'd know to pluck me then for certain, but you didn't. You know nothing, Jon Snow." She gave him a shy smile. "You might be learning some, though."

[Britisher]

5 minutes ago, Arya_Stupid! said:

I'm sure it doesn't work like that, just 'flipping a switch' as you put it. But we also have in world examples of children being fostered from very young ages, growing up 'as close as siblings' and then 2 children from the same household being betrothed later in life. Hell, we have examples of babies being married off to thirteen yr old boys. Lol. Nothing is 'normal' in this world.

Look, all i'm saying, is that, because of the type of relationship that Jon and Arya share - the emotional depth and mutual understanding between them - it would make more sense to me for a romantic relationship to develop between them, as opposed to Jon and Sansa who have exactly no feelings besides familial duty and perhaps a desire to protect (on Jon's part).

Everyone gets so up in arms about the possibility of any Starkcest. It will all be okay. They are only fictional characters... Lol. 

I think Sansa and Jon are more likely than Arya and Jon as the setup of the two relationships is very different. There has always been a degree of distance between Jon and Sansa due to Sansa's categorisation of Jon as her "bastard half-brother" who she has isolated from her perceived family unit. Arya and Jon are extremely close, although their relationship has developed along the lines of "brother" and "sister" - both considering the other to be part of their family unit.

[Britisher]

3 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Jon has not interest in bedding any closely related family. Jon starts his story "knowing nothing" because he is still a boy. He learns along the way. By the end of Dance, Jon sees himself as more of a wildling... First Man... and of the old gods. Jon will not offend the old gods. And the wildling term  to "steal" translates into the southern word to "marry". The southerners have a hard time accepting the true northerners and therefore perpetuate translation and misunderstanding issues.  (sorry, for some reason I cannot get BOLD to turn off)

A Storm of Swords - Jon III

"It wasn't Longspear, then?" Jon was relieved. He liked Longspear, with his homely face and friendly ways.

She punched him. "That's vile. Would you bed your sister?"

 

"Longspear's not your brother."

 

"He's of my village. You know nothing, Jon Snow. A true man steals a woman from afar, t' strengthen the clan. Women who bed brothers or fathers or clan kin offend the gods, and are cursed with weak and sickly children. Even monsters."

Interesting that he doesn't answer the question. 

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, Arya_Stupid! said:

I'm sure it doesn't work like that, just 'flipping a switch' as you put it. But we also have in world examples of children being fostered from very young ages, growing up 'as close as siblings' and then 2 children from the same household being betrothed later in life. Hell, we have examples of babies being married off to thirteen yr old boys. Lol. Nothing is 'normal' in this world.

 

Look, all i'm saying, is that, because of the type of relationship that Jon and Arya share - the emotional depth and mutual understanding between them - it would make more sense to me for a romantic relationship to develop between them, as opposed to Jon and Sansa who have exactly no feelings besides familial duty and perhaps a desire to protect (on Jon's part).

Everyone gets so up in arms about the possibility of any Starkcest. It will all be okay. They are only fictional characters... Lol. 

Who is 'up in arms'? Did I miss something? I thought we were all just having a debate about the books. Yes, the idea of Jon hooking up with either of his sisters irks a lot of readers, but that is because there's nothing in the text to support it. So you spend 20+ years reading and rereading a series of books, and suddenly, with no foreshadowing or hints, two characters who have always seen each other as siblings, become a romantic pair... Yeah, I'd find it pretty gross tbh. And while I agree that Jon and Arya - two of my faves - have a wonderful and loving relationship, I have never seen/felt any romantic overtones or hints or foreshadowing linking them romantically. And I very much doubt this will change in the next book or later. It would be a major asspull, and I don't really see Martin doing it. 

What I do see in Jon and Arya's relationship is something Martin's done with other characters... For instance, the truest knights in the story are not knights - Dunk and Brienne. The same goes for Jon and Arya, in the sense that the very best sibling relationship in the series is between two characters who are not siblings. 

[kissdbyfire]

7 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Jon has not interest in bedding any closely related family. Jon starts his story "knowing nothing" because he is still a boy. He learns along the way. By the end of Dance, Jon sees himself as more of a wildling... First Man... and of the old gods. Jon will not offend the old gods. And the wildling term  to "steal" translates into the southern word to "marry". The southerners have a hard time accepting the true northerners and therefore perpetuate translation and misunderstanding issues.  (sorry, for some reason I cannot get BOLD to turn off)

A Storm of Swords - Jon III

"It wasn't Longspear, then?" Jon was relieved. He liked Longspear, with his homely face and friendly ways.

She punched him. "That's vile. Would you bed your sister?"

 

"Longspear's not your brother."

 

"He's of my village. You know nothing, Jon Snow. A true man steals a woman from afar, t' strengthen the clan. Women who bed brothers or fathers or clan kin offend the gods, and are cursed with weak and sickly children. Even monsters."

Har! Was looking for this quote!

[The Fattest Leech]

4 minutes ago, Britisher said:

Interesting that he doesn't answer the question. 

He inquires for more information. I just added it above. Part of the purpose for Ygritte is she is a literary device that helps with world-building, history lessons and "rules", as is Old Nan and even Varamyr in his prologue. She helps to show the reader how in-world things are, so yeah, sometimes the main character seems dumb, but it is on purpose. This happens to Dany alot when she is getting backstory on her family as well courtesy of Barristan and Jorah.

[The Fattest Leech]

4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Har! Was looking for this quote!

Storm, Jon 3

[kissdbyfire]

2 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Storm, Jon 3

It's a good quote.

And as to the fact that Jon doesn't reply, as you said, Ygritte is our window into wildling culture. And Jon knows nothing then, but he is learning. 

[The Fattest Leech]

Just now, kissdbyfire said:

It's a good quote.

And as to the fact that Jon doesn't reply, as you said, Ygritte is our window into wildling culture. And Jon knows nothing then, but he is learning. 

Yeah. I added the rest of the scene, but it didn't save the first time for whatever reasons???

Here is the whole scene, and Ygritte even points out how Jon is learning:

A Storm of Swords - Jon III

"It wasn't Longspear, then?" Jon was relieved. He liked Longspear, with his homely face and friendly ways.

She punched him. "That's vile. Would you bed your sister?"

 

"Longspear's not your brother."

 

"He's of my village. You know nothing, Jon Snow. A true man steals a woman from afar, t' strengthen the clan. Women who bed brothers or fathers or clan kin offend the gods, and are cursed with weak and sickly children. Even monsters."

"Craster weds his daughters," Jon pointed out.

 

She punched him again. "Craster's more your kind than ours. His father was a crow who stole a woman out of Whitetree village, but after he had her he flew back t' his Wall. She went t' Castle Black once t' show the crow his son, but the brothers blew their horns and run her off. Craster's blood is black, and he bears a heavy curse." She ran her fingers lightly across his stomach. "I feared you'd do the same once. Fly back to the Wall. You never knew what t' do after you stole me."

 

Jon sat up. "Ygritte, I never stole you."

 

"Aye, you did. You jumped down the mountain and killed Orell, and afore I could get my axe you had a knife at my throat. I thought you'd have me then, or kill me, or maybe both, but you never did. And when I told you the tale o' Bael the Bard and how he plucked the rose o' Winterfell, I thought you'd know to pluck me then for certain, but you didn't. You know nothing, Jon Snow." She gave him a shy smile. "You might be learning some, though."

[Jon's Queen Consort]

35 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

snip

and @kissdbyfire Take my respect! I command you!

 

[Sly Wren]

3 hours ago, Britisher said:

What are your thoughts on this? 

While I am not remotely fond of this idea, I've thought for a while that it's likely to happen--for a lot of the reasons you've already given. And that chapter at the end of Storm is all about Sansa reconnecting with Winterfell and her family and snow in general. Her re-Starkening.

We've also got Myranda giving Sansa gossip/news from the North re: Jon's becoming Lord Commander. Seems very likely that Sansa will soon get word of "Arya's" marriage. And be appropriately horrified. As Jon is.

If ever there was a time for Sansa to break from whatever Littlefinger wants and assert herself, this really might be it: go save Arya. Which would put both Sansa and Jon heading for Winterfell with armies to retake Winterfell "together" and thus together for the upcoming fight against the Others. Such things could be a highly unifying moment.

[sweetsunray]

55 minutes ago, Britisher said:

The references to the ghostly silence of the snow falling and Sansa making no sound as she walks along the surface of the snow link the sequence to Jon's direwolf, Ghost, who is constantly regarded as being silent moving.

The use of black and white imagery links in to the Night's Watch, who wear all black clothing and reside in the snowy white north. It also links in with Jon Snow in particular whose name is literally "snow", and whose direwolf has a white coat. He also has grey eyes (hence the grey sky above).

Actually, those are all 'underworld' words. I've been building a whole 'underworld' lexicon using Ned chapters, Cat's and part of Bran's.

https://sweeticeandfiresunray.wordpress.com/the-chthonic-cycle/

The world of the dead is without sound, without smell, without color, without sensations... frozen, snow, cold. Wolves are underworld animals, the 'hellhounds', the 'Cerberus'. Check out the scene of Rickon entering with 3 direwolves lunging for Tyrion. All you're seeing is the reoccurrence of underworld lexicon words to signal that Sansa is in an underwordly scene and that it is attached to Winterfell. She is reconnecting with her Starkness, just as Ned reconnected with it in the dungeon (another underworld scene) and became like one of the crypt statues almost and cursed several people. Every WF chapter, every Northern chapter (except Cat's room), every Stark child chapter is chthonic in nature. The snow building chapter is crucial for Sansa, because it's the first time that type of world does not scare her (unlike in KL), and she recognizes it as 'home'.

These words have no personal link to another specific character, but to a world that it is their power souce and home... where they belong.

As for Bran and Arya: they "are dead". Bran was killed and burned. Arya's told by the Hound that "she's dead".

The romantic and sexually connotated words are sword related, song and dance. Sword has the double meaning of a penis (which can be a bloodied or deadly tool if childbirth goes wrong). Songs are sung of battle and love, and making a woman sing is making her climax. Dance is again a war or sexual flirtation between two people. Add a bear into it and you have a ship. If you can find quotes of Sansa singing for Jon, or Sansa watching Jon wield a sword, or Sansa having a memory of dancing with Jon then you might have something. 

[Sly Wren]

23 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

She punched him again. "Craster's more your kind than ours. His father was a crow who stole a woman out of Whitetree village, but after he had her he flew back t' his Wall. She went t' Castle Black once t' show the crow his son, but the brothers blew their horns and run her off. Craster's blood is black, and he bears a heavy curse." She ran her fingers lightly across his stomach. "I feared you'd do the same once. Fly back to the Wall. You never knew what t' do after you stole me."

Well, to bring up a point that completely disturbs me--the Starks, according to Ned, also bear a kind of curse--a frozen hell reserved for them. A curse perhaps not too different from Craster: "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell." Something about that blood is important.

ETA: And Jon ultimately DOES fly back to the Wall instead of staying with his wildling "wife." And he just got stabbed in part for wanting to fly to all the way back to Winterfell for his sister.

Ygritte notes Craster is more Jon's kind than hers. And we know that Starks marry their cousins. Rickard's plans for southron marriages had rather mixed results. If the "Stark in Winterfell" thing holds, Jon's marrying a close cousin might be . . . magically important.

The key word, of course, is "might."

Jonsus marrying Sansa Magdalene--I don't like the idea much at all. But I do think there's a strong chance that's exactly where we are going.

[Britisher]

17 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

The romantic and sexually connotated words are sword related, song and dance. Sword has the double meaning of a penis (which can be a bloodied or deadly tool if childbirth goes wrong). Songs are sung of battle and love, and making a woman sing is making her climax. Dance is again a war or sexual flirtation between two people. Add a bear into it and you have a ship. If you can find quotes of Sansa singing for Jon, or Sansa watching Jon wield a sword, or Sansa having a memory of dancing with Jon then you might have something. 

There is this:

Quote

Sansa loves to dance, but Alayne...

In this moment it is evident that she is patterning Alayne off of Jon Snow, who does not enjoy dancing. She is subconsciously thinking about him and dancing.

For the record I do not "ship" Jon Snow with Sansa Stark.

[The Fattest Leech]

2 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Well, to bring up a point that completely disturbs me--the Starks, according to Ned, also bear a kind of curse--a frozen hell reserved for them. A curse perhaps not too different from Craster: "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell." Something about that blood is important.

Ygritte notes Craster is more Jon's kind than hers. And we know that Starks marry their cousins. Rickard's plans for southron marriages had rather mixed results. If the "Stark in Winterfell" thing holds, Jon's marrying a close cousin might be . . . magically important.

The key word, of course, is "might."

Jonsus marrying Sansa Magdalene--I don't like the idea much at all. But I do think there's a strong chance that's exactly where we are going.

This is true for the Stark in Winterfell. I agree. There is a great chance that Jon won't be that Stark in Winterfell, especially when/if he finds out about his Targaryen father and how he is most likely a "legit" child (not a bastard). Jon may decide to take a new last name entirely??? Jon could be King in the North while one of his Stark siblings hold Winterfell.

There is much to iron out with how Winterfell and the north will be handled after the battle with the WW's. Personally, I think all of Westeros and the current governing system will fall and be rebuilt entirely differently than what it is now, including a quite possible annex of the north (with the Vale and Riverlands) from the south. Dorne might leave again, too. BUT, this is a topic for another thread.

I think Craster's curse is different than the Stark curse because one probably has to do more with broken pacts and one is an abomination against the gods... which are similar, but different, like how violating guest rights is a violation, but not the same as incest children.

This comparison Ygritte makes with Craster to Jon is how Jon is a typical crow. Well, Jon later shows how he is not a typical crow when he lets the wildlings through.

I think there are many more links to Jon ending up with who he is starting to identify himself as, in addition to Sansa in her own storyline being linked to other "knights" as well.

If there is any symbolism in the Sansa-snow castle scene, I tend to see it as how the Stark kids will come back together with some work because the pack survives.

This line about Arya does make me wonder if she will survive? "Robb had melting flakes in his hair when he hugged me, and the snowball Arya tried to make kept coming apart in her hands."

[sweetsunray]

Just now, Britisher said:

There is this:

In this moment it is evident that she is patterning Alayne off of Jon Snow, who does not enjoy dancing. She is subconsciously thinking about him and dancing.

For the record I do not "ship" Jon Snow with Sansa Stark.

 

But Jon Snow doesn't dance, nor does Alayne... so it Sansa who loves dancing, won't dance with Jon.

[Britisher]

2 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

 

But Jon Snow doesn't dance, nor does Alayne... so it Sansa who loves dancing, won't dance with Jon.

And yet he used to dance with Ygritte? 

[sweetsunray]

1 minute ago, Britisher said:

And yet he used to dance with Ygritte? 

And yet whose sword is against Sansa's throat? Who demands a song? Who does she sing for? Whose cloak did she keep?

[The Fattest Leech]

24 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Well, to bring up a point that completely disturbs me--the Starks, according to Ned, also bear a kind of curse--a frozen hell reserved for them. A curse perhaps not too different from Craster: "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell." Something about that blood is important.

ETA: And Jon ultimately DOES fly back to the Wall instead of staying with his wildling "wife." And he just got stabbed in part for wanting to fly to all the way back to Winterfell for his sister.

Ygritte notes Craster is more Jon's kind than hers. And we know that Starks marry their cousins. Rickard's plans for southron marriages had rather mixed results. If the "Stark in Winterfell" thing holds, Jon's marrying a close cousin might be . . . magically important.

The key word, of course, is "might."

Jonsus marrying Sansa Magdalene--I don't like the idea much at all. But I do think there's a strong chance that's exactly where we are going.

This is where it seems Jon parallels Rhaegar more than what seems clear on page. History is important here.

Rhaegar dies by blade as he crosses the trident for his lady love that he kept safe in a guarded tower.

Jon dies by blade by letting the wildlings cross the wall for his lady love who he kept guarded in a tower.