Will Jon and Sansa become romantically involved?

[The Fattest Leech]

7 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

@The Fattest Leech, I actually think Rickon will go to the Wall. Well, sorta. I think he'll go from Skagos to Winterfell through Eastwatch, because it's the best option to land a few ships since it's near-ish. Davos has a ship, and there are at least two or three other ships stranded there, as we learn from Davos and Cotter Pyke. Wouldn't it be something to have them land there with literally boatloads of cannibals?

 

I can only dream!!! I can see that happening if the timing works out. I concede to that point

[Joan Jett]

What I don't understand is, why take the time to have Ygritte explicitly warn Jon from committing incest if it's not going to be an issue in the future? What's the point.

 

[kissdbyfire]

4 minutes ago, Joan Jett said:

What I don't understand is, why take the time to have Ygritte explicitly warn Jon from committing incest if it's not going to be an issue in the future? What's the point.

 

It could be a minor thing just to show how different cultures view it, or just to make it clear that Craster's practices are viewed as heinous acts by the wildlings. 

 

[ShadowCat Rivers]

8 minutes ago, Britisher said:

My thoughts being that LF would hope to install Sansa as the Lord Paramount of the North with the armies of the Vale. 

I think we have more to come from Sansa's story before we have any battles around Winterfell involving Sansa - by which time Rickon could reach the Wall. 

Sorry to interfere for a mostly not-so-much on topic issue.

I disagree with the OP's view but I am not interested to discuss this. I am, however, very interested in discussing northern politics as they are starting to take shape and may unfold in the Winds of Winter.

Discussing politics and strategies, we must take into account that, in the books, logistics and/or other elements that facilitate or hinder the various players' plans do matter and are carefully presented in advance by the author. And there's the thing, regarding any Vale army: they can't use the High road; it's already closed by snow, from automn even... So any Vale army, in order to go anywhere, must necessarily go by sea. Specifically, to go to the North, they need the cooperation of White Harbour. There are many practical reasons why they just can't land on some northern shore and march from there on their own, just a little thought about what it takes for an army to march through an unknown and not necessarily/always friendly territory will do to underline the difficulty.

The thing is that White Harbour, in the books, is the seat of a player who has his own political agenda that not necessarily alignes with that of Littlefinger; in fact, Wyman Manderly is working towards getting in hand his own Stark figurehead (one that trumps Sansa's claim, even more so). On the positive side, in case of an alliance, is that Manderly owns and can provide the fleet to transport the Vale army (we don't know if the Vale does or doesn't have an adequate fleet to take them accross, but Manderly's fleet will come handy anyway - and it must be used for something...) So how will it come to play? There are quite a few possibilities, but the bottom line is that it will be much more complicated than simply, oh, here comes an army out of nowhere. It might be that there's an inter-Stark "dance" (well, of fractions with Stark figureheads, mainly) on the emergence of Robb's will, being contested by the argument that it was made under wrong premises? I do expect Robb's will to play a role, and it's also possible that Sansa's storyline converges with the nothern plot in that way, but I'd rather hope that the Vale army (and most importantly, food, let's not forget...) goes North, on Sansa's --not Littlefinger's-- call, to help with the more important danger that's ante portas at the Wall, lest we forget.

[The Fattest Leech]

1 hour ago, Joan Jett said:

What I don't understand is, why take the time to have Ygritte explicitly warn Jon from committing incest if it's not going to be an issue in the future? What's the point.

 

To teach the reader, via Jon, what is going on in different parts of the world. Each of the main characters need a secondary character to help tells the rules and history of their world for the benefit of the reader. Bran has it with Old Nan, Varamyr does it with rules about warging, Barristand and Jorah do it for Dany, Rodrick the Reader does for Asha and the Torgon the Latecomer story. Ygritte happens to be very good at it because she even teaches Jon about Bael the Bard and Gendel's children who are always hungry.

If you go back and read that quote, which is about Ygritte's first time, Jon says he was relieved that it wasn't Longspear, and then Ygritte "that's gross", and then goes on to explain wildling marriage and finishes with Ygritte telling Jon that he is finally learning something.

[Le Cygne]

Strongly disagree with the so-called "parallels" essay. For a bastard parallel spanning books, Sansa herself draws parallels for Alayne Stone/Sandor and Mya Stone/Lothor. Also the ghost wolf is Lady, and there are many Lady and the Hound associations in her story, that goes very deep.

Also strongly disagree with the Ashford tourney as "foreshadowing." Look to the tourney Sansa herself attended, where there's loads of Beauty and the Beast symbolism for Sansa and the Hound (he was the champion at her father's tourney, Sansa remembered). And there's so much more.

[Le Cygne]

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

If you go back and read that quote, which is about Ygritte's first time, Jon says he was relieved that it wasn't Longspear, and then Ygritte "that's gross", and then goes on to explain wildling marriage and finishes with Ygritte telling Jon that he is finally learning something.

Yeah, I think that's exactly it. I think Arya, who he's very close to, is a positive female role model. If it was any sister, it would be her, but I think she serves the role as the sort of woman he admires. And he admires Ygritte in a similar way. And this is also hinting to the reader about his mother, Arya is so much like her, and for a young man, his mother is a positive role model.

[Le Cygne]

6 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

If Ygritte can regard herself as 'stolen' because Jon held a sword against her throat, I guess that Sansa is indeed 'stolen' already. The guys are a bit dummies in that regard, because they need to be told after the fact  

I think she surely does. It was a dagger!dick in both cases. Similar wording in both stories. Sansa could feel the point of his dagger pushing into her... and then she felt a wetness that was not blood... and then she cupped his cheek... and more!

Then Sansa places Sandor in the marriage bed because of how he kissed her. She could still remember how it felt with his lips pressed to hers. She keeps his bloody consummation symbolism cloak with her summer silks in a hope chest. She let him steal her. 

And that's going to be really funny when she tells him he did!

[sweetsunray]

2 hours ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

Sorry to interfere for a mostly not-so-much on topic issue.

I disagree with the OP's view but I am not interested to discuss this. I am, however, very interested in discussing northern politics as they are starting to take shape and may unfold in the Winds of Winter.

Discussing politics and strategies, we must take into account that, in the books, logistics and/or other elements that facilitate or hinder the various players' plans do matter and are carefully presented in advance by the author. And there's the thing, regarding any Vale army: they can't use the High road; it's already closed by snow, from automn even... So any Vale army, in order to go anywhere, must necessarily go by sea. Specifically, to go to the North, they need the cooperation of White Harbour. There are many practical reasons why they just can't land on some northern shore and march from there on their own, just a little thought about what it takes for an army to march through an unknown and not necessarily/always friendly territory will do to underline the difficulty.

The thing is that White Harbour, in the books, is the seat of a player who has his own political agenda that not necessarily alignes with that of Littlefinger; in fact, Wyman Manderly is working towards getting in hand his own Stark figurehead (one that trumps Sansa's claim, even more so). On the positive side, in case of an alliance, is that Manderly owns and can provide the fleet to transport the Vale army (we don't know if the Vale does or doesn't have an adequate fleet to take them accross, but Manderly's fleet will come handy anyway - and it must be used for something...) So how will it come to play? There are quite a few possibilities, but the bottom line is that it will be much more complicated than simply, oh, here comes an army out of nowhere. It might be that there's an inter-Stark "dance" (well, of fractions with Stark figureheads, mainly) on the emergence of Robb's will, being contested by the argument that it was made under wrong premises? I do expect Robb's will to play a role, and it's also possible that Sansa's storyline converges with the nothern plot in that way, but I'd rather hope that the Vale army (and most importantly, food, let's not forget...) goes North, on Sansa's --not Littlefinger's-- call, to help with the more important danger that's ante portas at the Wall, lest we forget.

Completely agree with this. People seem to think taht 45k Vale army will be very nicely preserved and just march to the North. First of all George will have things go down badly in the Vale anyway. There's jsut no way he's keeping a full intact 45k army on the side, when Reach, Dorne, North, RL, Westerlands and Crownlands have suffered and will suffer army losses. LF is going to see all his "savings" be spoiled - the food, the army, the houses. A sizeable portion will remain, but I think it'll fall under Royce's command by the end of tWoW (with or without Sansa). He has an affinity to First Men, to the Night's Watch (sent his own son there) and I could see him allign with whatever Stark is up North being followed already, and take an army to White Harbor.

But no 45k army is going to march through the snowy Mountains of the Moon, to the RL and then past Twins, Neck and all the way to WF. 

[The Fattest Leech]

13 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Completely agree with this. People seem to think taht 45k Vale army will be very nicely preserved and just march to the North. First of all George will have things go down badly in the Vale anyway. There's jsut no way he's keeping a full intact 45k army on the side, when Reach, Dorne, North, RL, Westerlands and Crownlands have suffered and will suffer army losses. LF is going to see all his "savings" be spoiled - the food, the army, the houses. A sizeable portion will remain, but I think it'll fall under Royce's command by the end of tWoW (with or without Sansa). He has an affinity to First Men, to the Night's Watch (sent his own son there) and I could see him allign with whatever Stark is up North being followed already, and take an army to White Harbor.

But no 45k army is going to march through the snowy Mountains of the Moon, to the RL and then past Twins, Neck and all the way to WF. 

Yes to all of it, especially the bolded. 

[Le Cygne]

Not to mention, LF doesn't telegraph stuff.

[King Crow]

Jon and Sansa's romance is dependent on quite a few things. It is easy to dismiss the notion at this point.

I, however, agree with the Op. I believe that the two stand a real chance of becoming romantically involved

Some points I will add to the fire:

Apparently Little Finger is inspired by Heathcliff from Wuthering Heights, and this points towards Jon and Sansa

Jon and Sansa both fantasize about giving their future children the names of their lost loved ones. This shows that they have similar domestic goals.

Sansa Wishes that a hero will take Janos Sylnt's head and later on Jon beheads Slynt. Since the hero always falls for the princess in the songs, this instance has a strong romantic connotation.

Jon beheading Slynt isn't the first Jon Snow Chapter that refutes the "Life is not a Song" theme featured so heavily in Sansa's chapters. It also is challenged when Ygritte tells Jon the story of Bael the Bard.

When Jon tells Ygritte that Bael was lying she responds that "A bards truth is different from yours and mine..."

Ygritte demonstrates an atttude toward songs that I hope Sansa will one day adopt: grounded, but still able to dream.

Also, Ygritte uses the song to insinuate that Jon has courted her in a fashion. Using a song as instructions for a romantic relationship strongly evokes the image of Sansa.

 

Sure they aren't what each other normally goes for in a romantic partner, but I believe that they are compatible in different ways that could amplify their feeling for one another. Much like Ned and Catelyn's relationship.

[Le Cygne]

I don't agree with any of that, but thought I'd note: the Slynt thing was not intentional, he read the chapter at a con and they wanted it more dramatic or something like that.

Sandor is her hero, she remembers him rescuing her over and over, and imagines he's there to rescue her again, she keeps hearing his voice, it's all wrapped in romantic imagery.

GRRM even put a picture on his website...

Also there's so much there with Sansa and Sandor, I can't help but note, there are similarly worded parallels with them and references to marriage and children. Very pointed ones going on at the same time in the story.

And the song imagery, there's so much there with them, too. I'll have a song from you. I'll sing it for you gladly. Sing me a song, little bird. She sang me a sweet little song. He took a song and a kiss. And much, much more.

Jon doesn't want a princess, nor does he want a mini Catelyn. And Sansa would be bored stiff with Jon, she wants her wild Beast, the Hound. Sansa and Jon rarely if ever think of each other, they aren't compatible at all.

There's just so much with her and another character, he's just spending so much time with layers upon layers... And she's lying awake at night wishing he was there pretending they kissed dreaming of him naked in bed with her, etc.

[King Crow]

1 hour ago, Le Cygne said:

I don't agree with any of that, but thought I'd note: the Slynt thing was not intentional, he read the chapter at a con and they wanted it more dramatic or something like that.

Sandor is her hero, she remembers him rescuing her over and over, and imagines he's there to rescue her again, she keeps hearing his voice, it's all wrapped in romantic imagery.

GRRM even put a picture on his website...

Also there's so much there with Sansa and Sandor, I can't help but note, there are similarly worded parallels with them and references to marriage and children. Very pointed ones going on at the same time in the story.

And the song imagery, there's so much there with them, too. I'll have a song from you. I'll sing it for you gladly. Sing me a song, little bird. She sang me a sweet little song. He took a song and a kiss. And much, much more.

Jon doesn't want a princess, nor does he want a mini Catelyn. And Sansa would be bored stiff with Jon, she wants her wild Beast, the Hound. Sansa and Jon rarely if ever think of each other, they aren't compatible at all.

There's just so much with her and another character, he's just spending so much time with layers upon layers... And she's lying awake at night wishing he was there pretending they kissed dreaming of him naked in bed with her, etc.

I thought they changed it because Jon beheading someone is more fitting to his character than Jon hanging someone. Just because something is unintentional doesn't make it a mistake. The Slynt thing being unintentional in no way diminishes its meaningfulness or its truthfulness, especially for a self proclaimed literary gardener. In fact, I think it being unintentional makes it more compelling. It is an example of Jon's character pulling him towards Sansa's character.

As for Sansa and Sandor, I'm not denying that they have feelings for one another. I just don't see why being attracted to someone means that you want to spend the rest of your life with them. Much like Jon and Val, or Danny and Dhario I don't think that Sandor and Sansa's relationship has the longevity for that.

Saying Jon and Sansa aren't compatible at all is hyperbolic. They were raised in the same household with the same values. They lack chemistry but, they are in some ways some of the most compatible people in the series. There is a saying that I think fitting, "There is more rooms in a house besides the bedroom." Sure Sansa may rather date Sandor, but Sansa wants children. Who do you believe she would value more as a father? Well adjusted Jon or Sandor. I expect Sansa to act as a leader in some capacity, who do you bellieve she would appreciate more when puzzling out a courtly difficulty? Not being able to support Sansa in all the ways she needs to be supported could lead to resentment and being able to share in all of her struggles can generate a stronger connection.

 

 

[Little Scribe of Naath]

1 hour ago, Le Cygne said:

[snip]

I agree  with all of this. Jon/Sansa would never be romantically involved even if they leave the brother/sister bit behind, because they aren't each other's type in the least.

GRRM tends to give the teen protagonists a "type" of character they are attracted to. Jon likes spunky, warrior women like Ygritte and Val. In fact he actually says that Val isn't a princess waiting in a tower to be rescued, she'll do it herself. 

It's also GRRM probably hinting - like father, like son  (if you believe R + L = J, of course)

Sansa has been such an integral part of the Hound's journey, and he to hers, to the point where we can say that the Hound has become a replacement for her direwolf. He is present in literally every one of her POVs, either in thought or reality. This fits the author's pattern as most of the love stories in the books are representative (Dany/Daario) or transformative of the characters in some way (Jaime/Brienne for example, Hound/Sansa).

[Le Cygne]

Yes, being unintentional makes it not meaningful in terms of some sort of connection.

No, it's not actually hyperbolic to say Jon and Sansa are incompatible. They grew up together as brother and sister, yet have very little in common, and do not share a connection or bond, other than a sibling one. They had conflicts, too. I like Sansa, but I'll say it, she wasn't particularly nice to him.

And yes, I think she would value Sandor more as a father, because Sandor is the one she wants. The reader can't just tally things up on a scorecard and pronounce a victor, this is a woman who has desires and a mind of her own. The author has made her bond on a very deep level (not just attraction) with Sandor.

And again, I think Jon would bore Sansa to tears. She is attracted to Sandor because she likes his ferocity, that's a riff on Beauty and the Beast. The author is spending all this time on this very deep bond (just consider how many times she thinks of Lady and Sandor appears, that's about identity).

And it's been going on since the series began. And he said there will be more! It's obvious there's more story to come anyway.

[Le Cygne]

20 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

I agree  with all of this. Jon/Sansa would never be romantically involved even if they leave the brother/sister bit behind, because they aren't each other's type in the least.

GRRM tends to give the teen protagonists a "type" of character they are attracted to. Jon likes spunky, warrior women like Ygritte and Val. In fact he actually says that Val isn't a princess waiting in a tower to be rescued, she'll do it herself. 

It's also GRRM probably hinting - like father, like son  (if you believe R + L = J, of course)

Sansa has been such an integral part of the Hound's journey, and he to hers, to the point where we can say that the Hound has become a replacement for her direwolf. He is present in literally every one of her POVs, either in thought or reality. This fits the author's pattern as most of the love stories in the books are representative (Dany/Daario) or transformative of the characters in some way (Jaime/Brienne for example, Hound/Sansa).

Yeah, I think the same. Val is Jon's type. Sansa is not. Sandor is Sansa's type. Jon is not.

And yes, it's transformative with Sansa and the Hound, and Jaime and Brienne, on the part of both characters. They bring out the best in each other. That makes for a very good story, but also a very deep and lasting bond, too.

[King Crow]

38 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Yes, being unintentional makes it not meaningful in terms of some sort of connection.

No, it's not actually hyperbolic to say Jon and Sansa are incompatible. They grew up together as brother and sister, yet have very little in common, and do not share a connection or bond, other than a nominal sibling one. They had conflicts, too. I like Sansa, but I'll say it, she wasn't particularly nice to him.

And yes, I think she would value Sandor more as a father, because Sandor is the one she wants. The reader can't just tally things up on a scorecard and pronounce a victor, this is a woman who has desires and a mind of her own. The author has made her bond on a very deep level (not just attraction) with Sandor.

 

I disagree. it in no way diminishes the connection.

Being attracted to someone doesn't mean you believe they will be a good parent.

It's true you can't just tally things up on a score board, but it is also true that to a great extent, circumstance determines value. Sure Sandor and Sansa were a big deal, but that doesn't mean he will continue to be the biggest deal for the rest of her life. Sansa has many different roles that she can play and there are people better suited to play them with her.

[Dya of Oldstones]

Agree on the above, and I've been in the "Val is Jon's true Queen" camp for quite a while. It would make for an important alliance with the Free Folk who have moved south of the Wall, and since they abhor incest, would also be the least offensive choice to them.

I realize that first cousin marriages were common in Westeros, and even in medieval feudal societies, but if he were to marry any of his sisters it would be Arya. I don't even think that's happening for various reasons, but there's a bond there that never existed between him and Sansa.

Lastly in response to @King Crow I had to laugh about who would be better when Sansa needed to "puzzle her way out of a courtly difficulty." Aside from the romantic foreshadowing in the text, that's pretty much what Sandor helped her do when she was a hostage in KL, and last we heard from Jon, he was stabbed by the men under his command at the Wall. Not to mention that Sandor has spent most of his life in a royal court.

[King Crow]

2 minutes ago, Dya of Oldstones said:

Agree on the above, and I've been in the "Val is Jon's true Queen" camp for quite a while. It would make for an important alliance with the Free Folk who have moved south of the Wall, and since they abhor incest, would also be the least offensive choice to them.

I realize that first cousin marriages were common in Westeros, and even in medieval feudal societies, but if he were to marry any of his sisters it would be Arya. I don't even think that's happening for various reasons, but there's a bond there that never existed between him and Sansa.

Lastly in response to @King Crow I had to laugh about who would be better when Sansa needed to "puzzle her way out of a courtly difficulty." Aside from the romantic foreshadowing in the text, that's pretty much what Sandor helped her do when she was a hostage in KL, and last we heard from Jon, he was stabbed by the men under his command at the Wall. Not to mention that Sandor has spent most of his life in a royal court.

I think you misunderstand me, I refer to actually making decisions. The Blackfish spent most of his life at one court or another, and still seemed pretty useless for political issues.