Will Jon and Sansa become romantically involved?

[The Ned's Little Girl]

21 minutes ago, King Crow said:

Please extrapolate. I don't understand how a house known for treachery committing a treacherous act would prevent an alliance between two trusted parties. In a way wouldn't it make their alliance more valuable since their trust is rare in the new political landscape.

Also, while I do expect the long night to change the political landscape, I'm not as confident that the old way of doing things will just disappear. After the long night over, political maneuvers may resume.

(I would argue that the Freys were not considered treacherous before the Red Wedding. They were known for being slippery, prickly, quick to take offense and dilatory in performing their duties to their liege lord. But Robb and Catelyn's group clearly assumed that guest right custom would be sufficient to protect them and there was no indication that they had any reason to think otherwise. Catelyn in particular would never have relied on that custom alone if she had any inkling that the Freys wouldn't play by the accepted rules or were "known for treachery".)

The assumption within the arguments you are presenting is that Westeros at the end of the story will be pretty much restored to the way it was at the beginning of the story, with a King on the Iron Throne and his Queen, ruling over the Seven Kingdoms and the ruling houses and the nobility and the bannermen and all the same customs and expectations - such as guest right, for example - as prevailed when the novels opened. And that, in the meantime, things are still the same enough that characters should be making choices using the same criteria that they always have.

The only point I'm trying to make is that the usual operating rules of this society are moot now. The Red Wedding destroyed all of that. The "new political landscape" to which you refer has to operate according to a different reality - otherwise it's not new, is it? Characters who act as if all social safeguards are still in place and operating normally (as they would define "normally") are deluding themselves. And readers who contend that characters should be expected to make choices based on the same criteria that existed prior to the Red Wedding are not taking the changed circumstances of Westeros enough into account (as, in fact, is also true of most of the characters in the novels at this point).

At any rate, it's probably a pointless point. This is my last word on the subject, except for this: Jon and Sansa don't need to marry to be allies.

[OuttaOldtown]

4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Me too. I love it as much as I love the one below. Which, btw, further links Ghost, Jon and Val to the Old Gods and the north. 

“He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily. May the gods forgive me. It was a hunger inside him, sharp as a dragonglass blade. A hunger . . . he could feel it. It was food he needed, prey, a red deer that stank of fear or a great elk proud and defiant. He needed to kill and fill his belly with fresh meat and hot dark blood. His mouth began to water with the thought.
It was a long moment before he understood what was happening. When he did, he bolted to his feet. “Ghost?” He turned toward the wood, and there he came, padding silently out of the green dusk, the breath coming warm and white from his open jaws. “Ghost!” he shouted, and the direwolf broke into a run. He was leaner than he had been, but bigger as well, and the only sound he made was the soft crunch of dead leaves beneath his paws. When he reached Jon he leapt, and they wrestled amidst brown grass and long shadows as the stars came out above them. “Gods, wolf, where have you been?” Jon said when Ghost stopped worrying at his forearm. “I thought you’d died on me, like Robb and Ygritte and all the rest. I’ve had no sense of you, not since I climbed the Wall, not even in dreams.” The direwolf had no answer, but he licked Jon’s face with a tongue like a wet rasp, and his eyes caught the last light and shone like two great red suns.
Red eyes, Jon realized, but not like Melisandre’s. He had a weirwood’s eyes. Red eyes, red mouth, white fur. Blood and bone, like a heart tree. He belongs to the old gods, this one. And he alone of all the direwolves was white. Six pups they’d found in the late summer snows, him and Robb; five that were grey and black and brown, for the five Starks, and one white, as white as Snow.
He had his answer then.”

 

And I'll add this to the connection:

 Val was clad all in white; white woolen breeches tucked into high boots of bleached white leather, white bearskin cloak pinned at the shoulder with a carved weirwood face, white tunic with bone fastenings

[The Fattest Leech]

7 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Me too. I love it as much as I love the one below. Which, btw, further links Ghost, Jon and Val to the Old Gods and the north. 

“He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily. May the gods forgive me. It was a hunger inside him, sharp as a dragonglass blade. A hunger . . . he could feel it. It was food he needed, prey, a red deer that stank of fear or a great elk proud and defiant. He needed to kill and fill his belly with fresh meat and hot dark blood. His mouth began to water with the thought.
It was a long moment before he understood what was happening. When he did, he bolted to his feet. “Ghost?” He turned toward the wood, and there he came, padding silently out of the green dusk, the breath coming warm and white from his open jaws. “Ghost!” he shouted, and the direwolf broke into a run. He was leaner than he had been, but bigger as well, and the only sound he made was the soft crunch of dead leaves beneath his paws. When he reached Jon he leapt, and they wrestled amidst brown grass and long shadows as the stars came out above them. “Gods, wolf, where have you been?” Jon said when Ghost stopped worrying at his forearm. “I thought you’d died on me, like Robb and Ygritte and all the rest. I’ve had no sense of you, not since I climbed the Wall, not even in dreams.” The direwolf had no answer, but he licked Jon’s face with a tongue like a wet rasp, and his eyes caught the last light and shone like two great red suns.
Red eyes, Jon realized, but not like Melisandre’s. He had a weirwood’s eyes. Red eyes, red mouth, white fur. Blood and bone, like a heart tree. He belongs to the old gods, this one. And he alone of all the direwolves was white. Six pups they’d found in the late summer snows, him and Robb; five that were grey and black and brown, for the five Starks, and one white, as white as Snow.
He had his answer then.”

 

This is awesome. George should have added this to the books for readers to put together with other clues to help draw their conclusions. I mean, Jon has an animal-like desire for something, contemplates his feelings, and then makes a decision. Good stuff

[kissdbyfire]

2 minutes ago, OuttaOldtown said:

And I'll add this to the connection:

 

 

That's the quote we started with n the previous page. I love it.

1 minute ago, The Fattest Leech said:

This is awesome. George should have added this to the books for readers to put together with other clues to help draw their conclusions. I mean, Jon has an animal-like desire for something, contemplates his feelings, and then makes a decision. Good stuff

Innit?

[Britisher]

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

You seem to have loads of knowledge about Val and her sneaky, suspicious ways. Care to post some book sources to make your point, because there are literally pages of evidence that show otherwise. I will add a few here:

Val will be majorly important. GRRM stated a long time ago that his characters and the story will be introduced in three acts. She was introduced as part of the second act (a tiny bit in the end of act1) because that is when Jon needed her. 

1. Jon is also starting to see himself more a wildling by the mid- end of Dance.
2. Jon has a romantic thing for her but feels he is not worthy on some level because he is a bastard and his vows. Honestly, the way Jon feels about himself compared to Val and the whole highborn-prince-princess thing could be a thread on it's own. The phrase "you know nothing Jon Snow" carries over to here. Jon still knows nothing about himself and how he would be worthy of the wildling princess. (He is the prince that was promised). LC Mormont tells Sam (Sam 2/Storm) that the Night's Watch forgot it's original purpose, and so, any current vows are most likely being translated incorrectly.
3. The passage I put below shows how Jon thinks of Val, and what he wants long term. But again, we the readers know what Jon is still blind to. He needs to still open his eyes like Ghost when he found the wolf as a pup. Ghost was the only one with his eyes already open.

Ygritte wanted me to be a wildling. Stannis wants me to be the Lord of Winterfell. But what do I want? The sun crept down the sky to dip behind the Wall where it curved through the western hills. Jon watched as that towering expanse of ice took on the reds and pinks of sunset. Would I sooner be hanged for a turncloak by Lord Janos, or forswear my vows, marry Val, and become the Lord of Winterfell? It seemed an easy choice when he thought of it in those terms . . . though if Ygritte had still been alive, it might have been even easier. Val was a stranger to him. She was not hard on the eyes, certainly, and she had been sister to Mance Rayder's queen, but still . . .

I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children. I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decided to live his life on the Wall. I could name him Robb. Val would want to keep her sister's son, but we could foster him at Winterfell, and Gilly's boy as well. Sam would never need to tell his lie. We'd find a place for Gilly too, and Sam could come visit her once a year or so. Mance's son and Craster's would grow up brothers, as I once did with Robb.

He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily. May the gods forgive me. It was a hunger inside him, sharp as a dragonglass blade. A hunger . . . he could feel it. It was food he needed, prey, a red deer that stank of fear or a great elk proud and defiant. He needed to kill and fill his belly with fresh meat and hot dark blood. His mouth began to water with the thought.

I think overall those are some good points that you've raised.

Addressing the points I have cut down in the quote above.

1. What evidence is there to support this? Jon consistently models himself off of Eddard and he rejects Val and Winterfell (opting to stick with the Night's Watch instead). I may concede this point if there is substantial evidence on the contrary.

2. I do not agree with this analysis, even reading the extract you have provided it is evident that Jon is basing his decision on duty and honour rather than a sense of thinking of himself as being unworthy of Val's love. He acknowledges that he would need to steal her for her to love him (not that she would never be able to love him due to his station) and he also mentions at one point that Val is no true princess - this does not suggest to me that Val's love/status is the reason why Jon rejected Stannis, and why he "knows nothing".

3. I disagree: I think the extract shows an instinctual desire for Jon to return home to Winterfell and replace his fallen brethren (particularly his brother Robb - who is the only dead Stark child at that time). This is reinforced by the fact that he begins to lapse into Ghost by the end of the extract. It is not so much about establishing a long-term relationship with Val, but rather it is about re-establishing the life he has lost at Winterfell. This actually parallels Sansa's wish to replace the family she has lost with children of her own and to re-create the stable environment of her childhood.

It is evident that Jon wants a Robb more than anything else, hence why he states "I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children." From this point his thoughts drift more and more towards his ultimate will of having a son to replace Robb and he progressively becomes more instinctual as Ghost takes over.

Quote

I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children. I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decided to live his life on the Wall. I could name him Robb. Val would want to keep her sister's son, but we could foster him at Winterfell, and Gilly's boy as well. Sam would never need to tell his lie. We'd find a place for Gilly too, and Sam could come visit her once a year or so. Mance's son and Craster's would grow up brothers, as I once did with Robb.

Ghost's affection towards Val could be understood in respect to this instinctual desire which lies in both Jon and Ghost (and also Sansa) to satisfy his need for replacing Robb and re-establishing his stable childhood at Winterfell. 

[kissdbyfire]

No, Jon never rejected Val and Winterfell. Quite the opposite, in fact. He rejects Stannis' offer because it would mean he'd have to give up on the Old Gods and tear out Winterfell's heart and soul, the heart tree.

ASoS Jon

“When Jon closed his eyes he saw the heart tree, with its pale limbs, red leaves, and solemn face. The weirwood was the heart of Winterfell, Lord Eddard always said . . . but to save the castle Jon would have to tear that heart up by its ancient roots, and feed it to the red woman’s hungry fire god. I have no right, he thought. Winterfell belongs to the old gods.”

 

[King Crow]

42 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

(I would argue that the Freys were not considered treacherous before the Red Wedding. They were known for being slippery, prickly, quick to take offense and dilatory in performing their duties to their liege lord. But Robb and Catelyn's group clearly assumed that guest right custom would be sufficient to protect them and there was no indication that they had any reason to think otherwise. Catelyn in particular would never have relied on that custom alone if she had any inkling that the Freys wouldn't play by the accepted rules or were "known for treachery".)

The assumption within the arguments you are presenting is that Westeros at the end of the story will be pretty much restored to the way it was at the beginning of the story, with a King on the Iron Throne and his Queen, ruling over the Seven Kingdoms and the ruling houses and the nobility and the bannermen and all the same customs and expectations - such as guest right, for example - as prevailed when the novels opened. And that, in the meantime, things are still the same enough that characters should be making choices using the same criteria that they always have.

The only point I'm trying to make is that the usual operating rules of this society are moot now. The Red Wedding destroyed all of that. The "new political landscape" to which you refer has to operate according to a different reality - otherwise it's not new, is it? Characters who act as if all social safeguards are still in place and operating normally (as they would define "normally") are deluding themselves. And readers who contend that characters should be expected to make choices based on the same criteria that existed prior to the Red Wedding are not taking the changed circumstances of Westeros enough into account (as, in fact, is also true of most of the characters in the novels at this point).

At any rate, it's probably a pointless point. This is my last word on the subject, except for this: Jon and Sansa don't need to marry to be allies.

A Dance with Dragons: The Griffin Reborn

"The Lannisters make enemies easily but seem to have a harder time keeping friends. Their alliance with the Tyrells is fraying, to judge from what I read here. Queen Cersei and Queen Margaery are fighting over the little king like two bitches with a chicken bone, and both have been accused of treason and debauchery. Mace Tyrell has abandoned his siege of Storm's Endto march back to King's Landing and save his daughter, leaving only a token force behind to keep Stannis's men penned up inside the castle."

Connington sat. "Tell me more."

"In the north the Lannisters are relying on the Boltons and in the riverlands upon the Freys, both houses long renowned for treachery and cruelty. Lord Stannis Baratheon remains in open rebellion and the ironborn of the islands have raised up a king as well. No one ever seems to mention the Vale, which suggests to me that the Arryns have taken no part in any of this."

 

While conditions may vary with change and progress, some practices still remain. Marriage alliances predates the Iron Throne, and it is found beyond its jurisdiction. It may remain in practice after the Iron throne falls.

 

[Britisher]

3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

No, Jon never rejected Val and Winterfell. Quite the opposite, in fact. He rejects Stannis' offer because it would mean he'd have to give up on the Old Gods and tear out Winterfell's heart and soul, the heart tree.

ASoS Jon

“When Jon closed his eyes he saw the heart tree, with its pale limbs, red leaves, and solemn face. The weirwood was the heart of Winterfell, Lord Eddard always said . . . but to save the castle Jon would have to tear that heart up by its ancient roots, and feed it to the red woman’s hungry fire god. I have no right, he thought. Winterfell belongs to the old gods.”

 

And that decision had nothing to do with Val apparently  

It was about Winterfell, the Stark and the Old Gods family.

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, Britisher said:

And that decision had nothing to do with Val apparently  

It was about Winterfell, the Stark and the Old Gods family.

I'm not sure I follow... You're the one who said Jon rejected Winterfell and Val. He didn't, he clearly wants both, he even daydreams about Val giving him a son, and goes as far as thinking they could foster Gilly's son with them. 

[Britisher]

Side not

11 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I'm not sure I follow... You're the one who said Jon rejected Winterfell and Val. He didn't, he clearly wants both, he even daydreams about Val giving him a son, and goes as far as thinking they could foster Gilly's son with them. 

No, he clearly wants Robb and his childhood back. The whole part about fostering Gilly's son parallels Eddard fostering Jon as his bastard. Val is not the focus of this, she is the means - as Jon sees it - to recreating that environment and to having children to subsume the roles of his brothers and sisters (especially Robb).

I'll clarify: his rejection of Winterfell and Val had nothing to do with Val and everything to do with the Starks and the Old Gods. Val is not the reason why Jon considered breaking his vows. I think this reinforces the fact that he desires to restore his family, his childhood and Winterfell back to how it used to be, just like Sansa.

[The Fattest Leech]

26 minutes ago, Britisher said:

I think overall those are some good points that you've raised.

Addressing the points I have cut down in the quote above.

1. What evidence is there to support this? Jon consistently models himself off of Eddard and he rejects Val and Winterfell (opting to stick with the Night's Watch instead). I may concede this point if there is substantial evidence on the contrary.

2. I do not agree with this analysis, even reading the extract you have provided it is evident that Jon is basing his decision on duty and honour rather than a sense of thinking of himself as being unworthy of Val's love. He acknowledges that he would need to steal her for her to love him (not that she would never be able to love him due to his station) and he also mentions at one point that Val is no true princess - this does not suggest to me that Val's love/status is the reason why Jon rejected Stannis, and why he "knows nothing".

3. I disagree: I think the extract shows an instinctual desire for Jon to return home to Winterfell and replace his fallen brethren (particularly his brother Robb - who is the only dead Stark child at that time). This is reinforced by the fact that he begins to lapse into Ghost by the end of the extract. It is not so much about establishing a long-term relationship with Val, but rather it is about re-establishing the life he has lost at Winterfell. This actually parallels Sansa's wish to replace the family she has lost with children of her own and to re-create the stable environment of her childhood.

It is evident that Jon wants a Robb more than anything else, hence why he states "I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children." From this point his thoughts drift more and more towards his ultimate will of having a son to replace Robb and he progressively becomes more instinctual as Ghost takes over.

Ghost's affection towards Val could be understood in respect to this instinctual desire which lies in both Jon and Ghost (and also Sansa) to satisfy his need for replacing Robb and re-establishing his stable childhood at Winterfell. 

I am copying and pasting here to answer easier and answered in bold:

1. What evidence is there to support this? Jon consistently models himself off of Eddard and he rejects Val and Winterfell (opting to stick with the Night's Watch instead). I may concede this point if there is substantial evidence on the contrary. 

One example in addition to Jon seeing himself as one with Ghost and Ghost and Val being as one. The same way we know Jon looks like his mother because Arya does and Jon looks like Arya.

"—that I am half a wildling myself, a turncloak who means to sell the realm to our raiders, cannibals, and giants." Jon did not need to stare into a fire to know what was being said of him. The worst part was, they were not wrong, not wholly. "Words are wind, and the wind is always blowing at the Wall. Come."

Jon learns his honor from his Stark father, yes. That is a learned trait. Jon, unbeknownst to him, is getting much of his action from his Targ daddy. Here are a few side by side examples to explain.

*Adding: Jon does think of himself more and more as a wildling, which are First Men like the wildlings, and he THINKS he is a turncloak, but he is not... because Jon knows nothing.(yet)

2. I do not agree with this analysis, even reading the extract you have provided it is evident that Jon is basing his decision on duty and honour rather than a sense of thinking of himself as being unworthy of Val's love. He acknowledges that he would need to steal her for her to love him (not that she would never be able to love him due to his station) and he also mentions at one point that Val is no true princess - this does not suggest to me that Val's love/status is the reason why Jon rejected Stannis, and why he "knows nothing".

Jon knows nothing because he has not yet "killed the boy to let the man be born". We, the readers, see what is obvious in Jon's world, but Jon does not yet recognize these signs because his eyes are not yet open to these observations. Jon thinks he is a bastard because that is what he has been told. We KNOW he is not = Jon knows nothing. Jon thinks it is Arya at Winterfell, but we KNOW it is not = Jon knows nothing. Jon doesn't realize he stole Val, be we KNOW = Jon knows nothing. This is a purposeful theme GRRM put into Jon's story for a reason. Even in Jon's last few chapters in Dance, Tormund and Val both remind Jon of this.

3. I disagree: I think the extract shows an instinctual desire for Jon to return home to Winterfell and replace his fallen brethren (particularly his brother Robb - who is the only dead Stark child at that time). This is reinforced by the fact that he begins to lapse into Ghost by the end of the extract. It is not so much about establishing a long-term relationship with Val, but rather it is about re-establishing the life he has lost at Winterfell. This actually parallels Sansa's wish to replace the family she has lost with children of her own and to re-create the stable environment of her childhood.

It is evident that Jon wants a Robb more than anything else, hence why he states "I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children." From this point his thoughts drift more and more towards his ultimate will of having a son to replace Robb and he progressively becomes more instinctual as Ghost takes over.

Well, if Jon wants a Robb, it is a good thing that there is a wildling child that Jon considers adopting as his own (along with Val) that doesn't yet have a name. Jon will probably take both wildling boys if need be, no questions asked. And who is to say Val won't give children to Jon. This idea, apparently, makes Jon happy.

All of the Stark children think of home and of rebuilding home at some point in their arcs. This does not mean literally as much as figuratively by restoring the right Stark to Winterfell and resecurring the north, and yes, rebuilding (Bran?) the burnt parts of Winterfell. (I still hate thinking of all the books they lost when the cat's paw was sent to kill Bran).

Ghost's affection towards Val could be understood in respect to this instinctual desire which lies in both Jon and Ghost (and also Sansa) to satisfy his need for replacing Robb and re-establishing his stable childhood at Winterfell. 

Aah, you are really reaching here. How could Ghost, that Jon links to Val, be connected to wanting to replace Robb? This one is new to me.

I will say that Jon does miss Robb and their young days together. If you do a search for "Robb" in Jon's chapters, all books, he thinks about or talks about Robb 74 times (75 if you count the one time he was mentioned in a Sam chapter) as opposed to Arya who is brought up only 47 times (none with Sam).

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, King Crow said:

I think people are taking things that are just infatuation and are proposing they are more meaningful. Dany has fantasized about Darrio "stealing" her. Does that mean they too will be married.

There are no romantic feelings between Jon and Sansa when they were children, but your relationship as children is not indicative of your relationship as adults. From events in their chapter it can be inferred that their relationship will be a lot different when they reunite. It will be dynamic, satisfying, and quite possibly romantic.

This is a complete nonsense argument, but regularly used in discussions like these:

Oh, the whatever attractions and romantic thoughts of a character that is there as evidence in the books are "child crushes" or "infatuation" or whatever other label people want to give it, all in order to say "This character's feelings for another character that I don't prefer don't matter"

BUT at the same time it's argued that another character they know and NEVER EVER have romantic thoughts about or show any sign of attraction will become their romantic interest somehow.

You can't make a more obvious argument that you are pairing Jon and Sansa purely based on your own personal preference and completely unrelated to text and evidence, and don't care one iota about evidence.  You're not going to convince anybody with 'I prefer' and 'pffff, chuck out the evidence'.

And you're wrong: feelings always matter, and they are always real to the person feeling them, no matter what age or situation or degree of love. Worse it insults plenty of people who had a crush as a child and ended up marrying them later on and raise a family together. Might be rare, but it does happen.

[The Fattest Leech]

17 minutes ago, Britisher said:

And that decision had nothing to do with Val apparently  

It was about Winterfell, the Stark and the Old Gods family.

Val is like the Old Gods and Ghost. Jon won't betray the old gods. 

Chances are Jon won't take Winterfell from the right Stark, probably Bran right now, but JOn will settle somewhere else. I tend to think Queenscrown (if it survives) because of history, symbolism and current state.

[Britisher]

26 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

1. One example in addition to Jon seeing himself as one with Ghost and Ghost and Val being as one. The same way we know Jon looks like his mother because Arya does and Jon looks like Arya.

"—that I am half a wildling myself, a turncloak who means to sell the realm to our raiders, cannibals, and giants." Jon did not need to stare into a fire to know what was being said of him. The worst part was, they were not wrong, not wholly. "Words are wind, and the wind is always blowing at the Wall. Come."

Jon learns his honor from his Stark father, yes. That is a learned trait. Jon, unbeknownst to him, is getting much of his action from his Targ daddy. Here are a few side by side examples to explain.

2. Jon knows nothing because he has not yet "killed the boy to let the man be born". We, the readers, see what is obvious in Jon's world, but Jon does not yet recognize these signs because his eyes are not yet open to these observations. Jon thinks he is a bastard because that is what he has been told. We KNOW he is not = Jon knows nothing. Jon thinks it is Arya at Winterfell, but we KNOW it is not = Jon knows nothing. Jon doesn't realize he stole Val, be we KNOW = Jon knows nothing. This is a purposeful theme GRRM put into Jon's story for a reason. Even in Jon's last few chapters in Dance, Tormund and Val both remind Jon of this.

3. Well, if Jon wants a Robb, it is a good thing that there is a wildling child that Jon considers adopting as his own (along with Val) that doesn't yet have a name. Jon will probably take both wildling boys if need be, no questions asked. And who is to say Val won't give children to Jon. This idea, apparently, makes Jon happy.

All of the Stark children think of home and of rebuilding home at some point in their arcs. This does not mean literally as much as figuratively by restoring the right Stark to Winterfell and resecurring the north, and yes, rebuilding (Bran?) the burnt parts of Winterfell. (I still hate thinking of all the books they lost when the cat's paw was sent to kill Bran).

4. Aah, you are really reaching here. How could Ghost, that Jon links to Val, be connected to wanting to replace Robb? This one is new to me.

I will say that Jon does miss Robb and their young days together. If you do a search for "Robb" in Jon's chapters, all books, he thinks about or talks about Robb 74 times (75 if you count the one time he was mentioned in a Sam chapter) as opposed to Arya who is brought up only 47 times (none with Sam).

1. Thank you for sharing that, I'll concede that one

2. How does this answer my point that Jon knows he is worthy of Val's love as she isn't truly a princess and that he would only need to steal her for her to love him? 

3. Jon likens the Wildling child to himself and/or Theon more than Robb: he believes having a child with Val will bring Robb back. The extract focuses on Robb and having a son - Val is a means of creating this, and she is not the focus of the extract.

Are there any passages where Arya and/or Bran mention wanting to restore Winterfell to its former glory? (I'm sure there are but I cannot recall).

4. Greywind is dead and Ghost senses the loss of his brother (I believe that deep down Jon also senses that Arya, Bran, Rickon and Sansa are still alive, which explains his fixation on Robb over the other Stark children, particularly Arya). In the extract mentioned Jon believes that Val is the means through which Robb might be reborn in the from of a son. I believe that this desire to replace/resurrect Robb is also felt by Ghost which explains his close connection with Val.

 

[King Crow]

26 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

This is a complete nonsense argument, but regularly used in discussions like these:

Oh, the whatever attractions and romantic thoughts of a character that is there as evidence in the books are "child crushes" or "infatuation" or whatever other label people want to give it, all in order to say "This character's feelings for another character that I don't prefer don't matter"

BUT at the same time it's argued that another character they know and NEVER EVER have romantic thoughts about or show any sign of attraction will become their romantic interest somehow.

You can't make a more obvious argument that you are pairing Jon and Sansa purely based on your own personal preference and completely unrelated to text and evidence, and don't care one iota about evidence.  You're not going to convince anybody with 'I prefer' and 'pffff, chuck out the evidence'.

And you're wrong: feelings always matter, and they are always real to the person feeling them, no matter what age or situation or degree of love. Worse it insults plenty of people who had a crush as a child and ended up marrying them later on and raise a family together. Might be rare, but it does happen.

 No where in my argument did I say Jon's feelings for Val don't matter. I did argue that Jon being attracted to Val doesn't mean anything beyond Jon being attracted to Val. It doesn't make her trustworthy or a good person, or a good political match. Also, I argue that since Jon has motivations beyond finding romance, he may consider other factors when he is thinking about marriage factors beyond just his feelings.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

20 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Val is like the Old Gods and Ghost. Jon won't betray the old gods. 

Chances are Jon won't take Winterfell from the right Stark, probably Bran right now, but JOn will settle somewhere else. I tend to think Queenscrown (if it survives) because of history, symbolism and current state.

I think that this thread 

it's very interesting and well presented about Val, Jon and the Old Gods.

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

I think that this thread 

it's very interesting and well presented about Val, Jon and the Old Gods.

I was thinking about that thread! Glad you linked it here!

[sweetsunray]

7 minutes ago, King Crow said:

 No where in my argument did I say Jon's feelings for Val don't matter. I did argue that Jon being attracted to Val doesn't mean anything beyond Jon being attracted to Val. It doesn't make her trustworthy or a good person, or a good political match. Also, I argue that since Jon has motivations beyond finding romance, he may consider other factors when he is thinking about marriage factors beyond just his feelings.

You argument it when you use terms like "child crushes". The label is meant to dismiss the feelings.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I was thinking about that thread! Glad you linked it here!

I think that with because all of those Old Gods' references it belongs here. 

[Britisher]

31 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Val is like the Old Gods and Ghost. Jon won't betray the old gods. 

Chances are Jon won't take Winterfell from the right Stark, probably Bran right now, but JOn will settle somewhere else. I tend to think Queenscrown (if it survives) because of history, symbolism and current state.

Pedantic

What I meant to say was that Jon's rejection of Stannis's offer had naught to do with his desire to have a romantic relationship with Val, just as his strong urge to forsake his vows to the Night's Watch was not primarily about Val or his feelings towards her, but rather his feelings towards his family and his will to recreate his childhood.

It is an ideal which Sansa is equally capable of fulfilling. (And she shares this ideal too).